22nd Aug 2010, 09:09
permalink Post: 62
I feel like the fog is begining to clear and I am getting a slight understanding of how she flew. I was hung up with her flying at Mach speeds where as she was flown at an IAS (specific the the profile she was in). The Mach speed, especially when high, was a result of the temperature and not because she was f a s t ! The altitude flown was due to temperature and weight of the areoplane. This is true of all aeroplanes but due to the extreme environment this was more true of Concorde?
The subsonics have issues with Coffin Corner (I think I read that one Airbus model had somehting like 7kts between the high and low end of the envelope when up high); did Concorde have this "problem"?
I remember reading the BA Concorde flew with 2 Captain Pilots (and of course the most important Flight Engineer) and when I was watching The Rise and Fall of the Concorde , I was looking for the 4 bars in the RHS. Didn't see one but on the Air France Concorde the RHS pilot had 3 stripes. Was this correct or are my "little grey cells" confused?(sorry can't type a Belgium accent
)
I don't know why this popped into my head but what was her glide ratio if all the engines stopped? Maybe because I remember from my early training being told the a B707 had a better glide ratio than the PA28-140 I was learning in. Now that was an eye opener at the time.
The subsonics have issues with Coffin Corner (I think I read that one Airbus model had somehting like 7kts between the high and low end of the envelope when up high); did Concorde have this "problem"?
I remember reading the BA Concorde flew with 2 Captain Pilots (and of course the most important Flight Engineer) and when I was watching The Rise and Fall of the Concorde , I was looking for the 4 bars in the RHS. Didn't see one but on the Air France Concorde the RHS pilot had 3 stripes. Was this correct or are my "little grey cells" confused?(sorry can't type a Belgium accent
)
I don't know why this popped into my head but what was her glide ratio if all the engines stopped? Maybe because I remember from my early training being told the a B707 had a better glide ratio than the PA28-140 I was learning in. Now that was an eye opener at the time.
22nd Aug 2010, 12:29
permalink Post: 65
Galaxy Flyer
Quote:
| One more question, could the Concorde lose pressurization, descend to some low level (FL180 or below, perhaps FL100) and make it to scheduled destination or would a divert to Shannon or Gander be required? What was a low level cruise speed? |
It's great that Bellerophon is posting here again; we need a steely eyed Concorde pilot's input here (not just the boffins/nutters and nerds [that's me
]. To touch more on a couple of his valid points;
Fuel burn: The aircraft would naturally require less fuel as she became lighter and as a consequence gently climbed to maintain cruise Mach number, this is what the engine control system was doing all the time, even though the throttles were wide open it was 'tweaking'.. BUT, the decreasing IAS as you climbed, due of course to the reducing density, just like any other aircraft meant that drag was reducing too, so it was a combination of both of these factors, reducing weight and reducing drag.
Flying controls: It was a slightly weird but wonderful arrangement; pilots inputs would move a servo valve in the hydraulic relay jack, the jack would move in response and drive both a resolver AND mechanical linkages. The resolver ourput was sumed with the flying control position resolvers, and the error signal was fed into an autostab' computer, where it was summed with stabilisation demands (primarily axis rate and acceleration). The autostab computer would the directly drive the surface, and the reducing error signal would reduce the demand etc. While all this was going on, the mechanical linkages would slavishly follow, but as long as you were in FBW (what we used to call 'signalling') mode, these mechanical inputs were de-clutched at the PFCU, so did nothing at all. Only if there was an EXTREMELY unlikely failure of BOTH FBW channels would these inputs be clutched in and the flying control group (rudders, inner elevons or outer and mid' elevons) would then be in Mechanical signalling. The system redundancy was checked after engine start on every flight. But to reinforce what Bellerophon stated, there was no mechanical reversion here; without hydraulics you had nothing. Another aside here; the designers, being paranoid like all good designers (no offence Christiaan
) were worried what would happen if the controls would somehow jam up. A jammed mechanical flying control input run itself would have no effect on FBW operation whatsoever, due to spring boxes being fitted to the runs. A 'Mech Jam' light would be set, together with a separate red light and audio warning, but this was all. But to completely protect against the aircraft was fitted with a Safety Flight Computer (SFC) system. The idea was, if a control axis (pitch or roll only) jammed up, the captain could press down on a switch light set between the two halves of his control wheel, (at the centre of the 'W') and the Emergency Flight Controls would activate. Strain gauges at the front of the control wheel, two sets on each control column for pitch and roll axis, would input into an SFC that would covert the control force into an elevon demand. These commands were then fed into the autostab' computers, and hence directly into the controls. (A little like L-1011 CWS in a way). There was a little test button that was used to test this system, again after engine start. So although the controls were jammed, the aircraft could still be flown. (Never used in anger I'm pleased to report).
But there was a problem; if this system was inadvertantly used, the results could have been catastrophic, as the system was extremely sensitive indeed, and full elevon movement could be enabled with only moderate effort. Because of this hairy prospect some safeguards were obviously put in place. The first safeguard was an interlock in the autostab' engage logic; If the switchlight had been inadvertently selected beforehand (the light was green by the way) you would not be able to engage pitch or roll autostab's (both channels too) so you would not be going flying until that was fixed. The second safeguard was a little more subtle; A plastic, frangible cover was fitted over the switchlight, unless the captain pressed reasonably hard the cover would prevent the switchlight from being pressed. At least that was the theory, in practice this little bit of plastic could be a pain in the ass
. It was carefully fashioned, and I seem to remember BAe charging the airlines a few hundred pounds each for these things. If some wally fitted the cover upside down (and unless you were careful it was easy to do) THE THING WOULD NOT BREAK!! I remember at Fairford in 1976, G-BOAD was on pre-delivery flight testing, and the late great test pilot John Cochrane was doing a test of the system. The cover on this occasion HAD been fitted upside down, and of course he could not plunge his thumb through it and engage the EFC button. After trying everything, in the end he removed a shoe, took out his pen, and smashed the plastic cover until it broke. (It's OK, the autopilot was engaged at the time). Unfortunately, his combined shoe/pen emergency device also wrecked the switchlight as well, so the system still could not engage. (There was only a switchlight on the captain's side). After he landed and he confronted us all with his dilemma, he was shaking; not with rage but with laughter. (This was the great John Cochrane, sometimes the dour Scotsman but he was always able to see the lighter side). After that event, careful instructions were issued regarding the fit of the cover, and it was modified and made a little more frangible.
Last edited by M2dude; 23rd Aug 2010 at 00:02 . Reason: will engineers ever learn to spell?
22nd Aug 2010, 13:18
permalink Post: 66
Biggles78
...The altitude flown was due to temperature and weight of the areoplane. This is true of all aeroplanes...
Sadly, it isn’t, as subsonic aircraft are allocated a specific cruising flight level and often - for example on the North Atlantic Track system - a specific cruising Mach number as well, and no deviation from that clearance is permitted without specific permission from ATC. Obviously everyone flight plans at the most economic heights and speeds for their aircraft type, but in busy airspace not everyone gets what they want!
Think of your flight plan as being Angelina Jolie, and your ATC clearance as being your wife. Your flight plan is what you’d really like to have, but your ATC clearance is what you’re going to have to live with!
... altitude flown was due to temperature and weight of the areoplane...this was more true of Concorde?...
Subsonic aircraft could equally benefit from using cruise-climb techniques (early long range aircraft crews knew all about cruise-climb techniques and used them when able) but with the large number of subsonic aircraft now using the world’s airways it is impractical for ATC to allow them to drift up and down at will, and so they are assigned specific cruising altitudes.
Few other aircraft got up to Concorde’s cruising levels, and so ATC were able to issue much more flexible clearances to her.
A typical Concorde ATC clearance would have allowed her to accelerate to M2.00 whilst operating within a "block" of altitude, rather than at a specific flight level. Typically this block clearance would have been to operate anywhere between FL450 up to FL600 without restriction.
So, unlike subsonic aircraft assigned a fixed cruising altitude such as FL350, Concorde could, and did, drift up or down, and was thus able to remain at the optimum altitude for the prevailing conditions throughout most of the flight.
... I remember reading the BA Concorde flew with 2 Captain Pilots (and of course the most important Flight Engineer)...
Concorde operated, as did all 3 crew aircraft in BA, with a standard crew of a Captain, F/O and F/E.
A small number of trips had two Captains on board (or two F/Es for that matter) when training or checking was going on, or an extra crew member was carried for PR purposes, but otherwise, the vast majority of occasions, just the standard crew was on board. Everyone preferred it that way, especially the F/O and F/E!
... The subsonics have issues with Coffin Corner (I think I read that one Airbus model had somehting like 7kts between the high and low end of the envelope when up high); did Concorde have this "problem"?...
Have a look at this picture of G-BOAE, cruising at her maximum certificated altitude of FL600, en-route to Barbados on 16 August 2003:
The available IAS speed range is shown on the ASI, and lies between the yellow and black Barbers Pole, currently indicating 440kts, and the white bug set to 300kts, the VLA ( L owest A uthorised speed) at this altitude.
The available Mach speed range is shown on the Mach meter, and lies between the yellow and black Barbers Pole, currently indicating M2.05, and the yellow bug which indicates the lowest Mach number allowed for the current aircraft CG position (the AFT limit) currently showing M1.35.
So, given that at her maximum altitude she had a speed range of 140kts IAS and a Mach range of M0.7, we can see that coffin corner was not a problem!
main_dog
...I too would like to ask what her idle thrust glide ratio was...
By my calculations, the figures quoted for a straight in approach, give an average glide ratio of around 20:1, however these were for a standard decel/descent, and on Concorde the early part of the decel/descent was not flown at idle power.
A considerable amount of power was left on initially, around 94% N2, for various reasons, and only below M1.0 were the throttles usually selected to idle.
I hadn’t noticed it until now but there does not appear to have been a chart giving glide distance at idle thrust!
However, since the speeds to be flown during the “4 Eng Flame Out” procedure were not too far from the normal decel/descent speeds, I’ll hazard a guess (and that is all it is) that the glide distance from FL600, with no thrust, would have been about 150nm, giving a glide ratio of around 15:1.
...The altitude flown was due to temperature and weight of the areoplane. This is true of all aeroplanes...
Sadly, it isn’t, as subsonic aircraft are allocated a specific cruising flight level and often - for example on the North Atlantic Track system - a specific cruising Mach number as well, and no deviation from that clearance is permitted without specific permission from ATC. Obviously everyone flight plans at the most economic heights and speeds for their aircraft type, but in busy airspace not everyone gets what they want!
Think of your flight plan as being Angelina Jolie, and your ATC clearance as being your wife. Your flight plan is what you’d really like to have, but your ATC clearance is what you’re going to have to live with!
... altitude flown was due to temperature and weight of the areoplane...this was more true of Concorde?...
Subsonic aircraft could equally benefit from using cruise-climb techniques (early long range aircraft crews knew all about cruise-climb techniques and used them when able) but with the large number of subsonic aircraft now using the world’s airways it is impractical for ATC to allow them to drift up and down at will, and so they are assigned specific cruising altitudes.
Few other aircraft got up to Concorde’s cruising levels, and so ATC were able to issue much more flexible clearances to her.
A typical Concorde ATC clearance would have allowed her to accelerate to M2.00 whilst operating within a "block" of altitude, rather than at a specific flight level. Typically this block clearance would have been to operate anywhere between FL450 up to FL600 without restriction.
So, unlike subsonic aircraft assigned a fixed cruising altitude such as FL350, Concorde could, and did, drift up or down, and was thus able to remain at the optimum altitude for the prevailing conditions throughout most of the flight.
... I remember reading the BA Concorde flew with 2 Captain Pilots (and of course the most important Flight Engineer)...
Concorde operated, as did all 3 crew aircraft in BA, with a standard crew of a Captain, F/O and F/E.
A small number of trips had two Captains on board (or two F/Es for that matter) when training or checking was going on, or an extra crew member was carried for PR purposes, but otherwise, the vast majority of occasions, just the standard crew was on board. Everyone preferred it that way, especially the F/O and F/E!
... The subsonics have issues with Coffin Corner (I think I read that one Airbus model had somehting like 7kts between the high and low end of the envelope when up high); did Concorde have this "problem"?...
Have a look at this picture of G-BOAE, cruising at her maximum certificated altitude of FL600, en-route to Barbados on 16 August 2003:
The available IAS speed range is shown on the ASI, and lies between the yellow and black Barbers Pole, currently indicating 440kts, and the white bug set to 300kts, the VLA ( L owest A uthorised speed) at this altitude.
The available Mach speed range is shown on the Mach meter, and lies between the yellow and black Barbers Pole, currently indicating M2.05, and the yellow bug which indicates the lowest Mach number allowed for the current aircraft CG position (the AFT limit) currently showing M1.35.
So, given that at her maximum altitude she had a speed range of 140kts IAS and a Mach range of M0.7, we can see that coffin corner was not a problem!
main_dog
...I too would like to ask what her idle thrust glide ratio was...
By my calculations, the figures quoted for a straight in approach, give an average glide ratio of around 20:1, however these were for a standard decel/descent, and on Concorde the early part of the decel/descent was not flown at idle power.
A considerable amount of power was left on initially, around 94% N2, for various reasons, and only below M1.0 were the throttles usually selected to idle.
I hadn’t noticed it until now but there does not appear to have been a chart giving glide distance at idle thrust!
However, since the speeds to be flown during the “4 Eng Flame Out” procedure were not too far from the normal decel/descent speeds, I’ll hazard a guess (and that is all it is) that the glide distance from FL600, with no thrust, would have been about 150nm, giving a glide ratio of around 15:1.
23rd Aug 2010, 14:03
permalink Post: 81
On the ITVV Concorde DVD the Captain explains that during the cruise climb at mach 2 the auto throttles were armed and would be used as required. Then during descent the throttles were gradually pulled back whilst the autopilot was given an IAS of I think 350 knots. Therefore the plane would have to descend to maintain that speed. He explained that the power settings were chosen to ensure that there was sufficent cooling etc.
My query is if an autoland was to be undertaken was the auto throttle system able to maintain the required landing speed or would the pilot have to manage the throttles? I guess that decreasing or increasing the pitch to control speed when on the glide slope would not be a good idea.
Thanks again
Nick
My query is if an autoland was to be undertaken was the auto throttle system able to maintain the required landing speed or would the pilot have to manage the throttles? I guess that decreasing or increasing the pitch to control speed when on the glide slope would not be a good idea.
Thanks again
Nick
23rd Aug 2010, 17:42
permalink Post: 84
This is a wonderful thread about the most superlative aircraft ever built.We were once fortunate enough to be given seats 1 C&D (I would have liked to see a roll-call of their previous occupants) and with regard to the hugely knowledgeable points made about fuel transfer and trim, during boarding and in flight the sound of fuel pumping was often louder than the Olympus music.During a visit to the FD the captain verified that these were the noisiest rows in the cabin despite their often being used by royalty and REAL A-listers. Many thanks for sharing your deep insights into this machine.
24th Aug 2010, 12:02
permalink Post: 90
MEMORIES
Like so many in the Concorde family, I have millions, I'd like to share a couple here. I remember at Fairford in mid 1974, a CAA test pilot (I honestly forget the gentleman's name) was taking the British pre-production A/C 101 (G-AXDN) for a special test flight. The reason that this flight was so special was that for the first time, the CAA were going to do an acceptance flight trial of the brand new digital air intake system. This revolutionary system had been retro fitted to 101 barely a year earlier, and being a brand new (and totally unique, in electronics terms) system had been plagued with teething troubles. It was quite reasonable for any airworthiness authority to have serious misgivings about any system that was going to wave great big metal lumps around in front of the engine compressor face, and that if only a few degrees out from the commanded position out could cause the engine to 'backfire' etc.
So anyway, 101 took off and disappeared into the very blue sky and we waited, and waited, AND WAITED. (I'd only left the RAF and joined the project a few months previously, and did not want my new association with this amazing aircraft to end). I was biting my nails, drinking coffee, losing my hair... (without the help of M2V
). Anyway after about 2 1/2 hours the aircraft returned to Fairford, and everybody crowds around the crew for the debrief. A very stern faced CAA pilot looked at us all, broke into a grin and said "as far as I'm concerned gentlemen, you've got yourselves an airliner". At that point the room was a study of total happiness, blessed relief, and a need to go to the loo..... But from my point of view, I will remember those words forever.
101, which now resides at the Imperial War Museum Duxford was the fastest Concorde ever. She achieved Mach 2.23, which was an incredible irony, as Concorde can trace a large part of it's developement history back to the BAC 223, proposed SST.
As far as flying memories go, I just don't know where to start; My first ever Concorde flight was in November 1976, out of Fairford on a pre-delivery test flight on G-BOAD. (Now sadly bobbing up and down on the Hudson, next to the USS Intrepid). I was staggered how fast and high we flew (Mach 2.08, FL580). Most of my flying up to that date had been in C-130's in the RAF, at around 340 KTS and FL300; Concorde also being infinately quiter in flight than the good old Herc'. I remember a BA QA guy showing me how I could touch the skin of the aircraft at Mach 2 (You reached behind a door busstle flap, moved your hand through some insulation until you felt bare metal). OUCH!! it was hot, very hot.
But I think one of my most memorable flight memories was aboard G-BOAG, (now residing in the Boeing Museum of Flight in Seattle) returning from BKK, having stopped off to refuel in BAH. We were forced to fly subsonic over Saudi, and got caught in this amazing electrical storm, There was St Elmo's fire cracking and bubbling all over the visor panels, but just as incredible was the long blue electrical discharge coming off of the nose probe; it seemed to extend about 50' in front of the aircraft. The crime was, none of us on the F/D had a camera. Every time I bump into the captain on that day (are you reading this Ian?), we go back to remonissing about that incredible flight. Also, later on the same sector, after we had decelerated to subsonic cruise again, this time flying up the Adriatic, we had another fascinating sight: It was getting quite dark now, and here we were, travelling at Mach 0.95 at FL290, when above us was all this Mach 0.8 ish traffic at around FL330-350. All we could see were all these navigation and ant-coll' lights above us, seemingly travelling backwards. It was quite a sight. On the original BAH-BKK sector a week earlier, we flew through some of the coldest air I'd ever seen; The air was at ISA -25, and at Mach 2 our TAT was only about 85 deg's C. (You could feel the difference too; the cabin windows felt only warm-ish to the touch). The upside also of all this was that your fuel burn was much lower than usual. (The only downside of course is that your TAS is a little lower). Rolls Royce did some analysis on the flight, and were amazed at how well the propulsion systems coped with some of the temperature sheers that we encountered, sometimes 4 to 5 deg's/second. They said that the prototype AFCS had been defeated by rises of only 0.25 deg's/second ).
Not meaning to go off onto a (yet another) tangent; Negative temperature shears, very common at lower lattidudes, always plagued the development aircraft; you would suddenly accelerate, and in the case of a severe shear, would accelerate and accelerate!! (Your Mach number, quite naturaly, suddenly increased with the falling temperature of course, but because of the powerplant suddenly hitting an area of hyper-efficiencey, the A/C would physically accelerate rapidly, way beyond Mmo). Many modifications were tried to mitigate the effects of severe shears, in the end a clever change to the intake control unit software fixed it. (Thanks to this change the production series A/C would not be capable of level flight Mach numbers of any more than Mach 2.13, remembering that Mmo was set at 2.04).
There was one lovely story, involving the Shah of Iran, having one of MANY flights in a developmment aircraft. The aircraft encounterd quite a hefty series of temperature shears that plagued havoc with some Iranian F4's that were attempting to close on the Concorde, to act as an escort for the Shah. (or so the strory goes). I'm still trying to picture these F4's, on full afterburner trying to get close to a Concorde cruising away on dry power). It is said that the F4's were having such difficulties, due to their relatively crude powerplant, coping with the temperature changes, that the Concorde was ordered to slow down, 'so the escorting F4's could catch up'!! True or not, it is part of Concorde folklore.
Dude
Like so many in the Concorde family, I have millions, I'd like to share a couple here. I remember at Fairford in mid 1974, a CAA test pilot (I honestly forget the gentleman's name) was taking the British pre-production A/C 101 (G-AXDN) for a special test flight. The reason that this flight was so special was that for the first time, the CAA were going to do an acceptance flight trial of the brand new digital air intake system. This revolutionary system had been retro fitted to 101 barely a year earlier, and being a brand new (and totally unique, in electronics terms) system had been plagued with teething troubles. It was quite reasonable for any airworthiness authority to have serious misgivings about any system that was going to wave great big metal lumps around in front of the engine compressor face, and that if only a few degrees out from the commanded position out could cause the engine to 'backfire' etc.
So anyway, 101 took off and disappeared into the very blue sky and we waited, and waited, AND WAITED. (I'd only left the RAF and joined the project a few months previously, and did not want my new association with this amazing aircraft to end). I was biting my nails, drinking coffee, losing my hair... (without the help of M2V
). Anyway after about 2 1/2 hours the aircraft returned to Fairford, and everybody crowds around the crew for the debrief. A very stern faced CAA pilot looked at us all, broke into a grin and said "as far as I'm concerned gentlemen, you've got yourselves an airliner". At that point the room was a study of total happiness, blessed relief, and a need to go to the loo..... But from my point of view, I will remember those words forever.
101, which now resides at the Imperial War Museum Duxford was the fastest Concorde ever. She achieved Mach 2.23, which was an incredible irony, as Concorde can trace a large part of it's developement history back to the BAC 223, proposed SST.
As far as flying memories go, I just don't know where to start; My first ever Concorde flight was in November 1976, out of Fairford on a pre-delivery test flight on G-BOAD. (Now sadly bobbing up and down on the Hudson, next to the USS Intrepid). I was staggered how fast and high we flew (Mach 2.08, FL580). Most of my flying up to that date had been in C-130's in the RAF, at around 340 KTS and FL300; Concorde also being infinately quiter in flight than the good old Herc'. I remember a BA QA guy showing me how I could touch the skin of the aircraft at Mach 2 (You reached behind a door busstle flap, moved your hand through some insulation until you felt bare metal). OUCH!! it was hot, very hot.
But I think one of my most memorable flight memories was aboard G-BOAG, (now residing in the Boeing Museum of Flight in Seattle) returning from BKK, having stopped off to refuel in BAH. We were forced to fly subsonic over Saudi, and got caught in this amazing electrical storm, There was St Elmo's fire cracking and bubbling all over the visor panels, but just as incredible was the long blue electrical discharge coming off of the nose probe; it seemed to extend about 50' in front of the aircraft. The crime was, none of us on the F/D had a camera. Every time I bump into the captain on that day (are you reading this Ian?), we go back to remonissing about that incredible flight. Also, later on the same sector, after we had decelerated to subsonic cruise again, this time flying up the Adriatic, we had another fascinating sight: It was getting quite dark now, and here we were, travelling at Mach 0.95 at FL290, when above us was all this Mach 0.8 ish traffic at around FL330-350. All we could see were all these navigation and ant-coll' lights above us, seemingly travelling backwards. It was quite a sight. On the original BAH-BKK sector a week earlier, we flew through some of the coldest air I'd ever seen; The air was at ISA -25, and at Mach 2 our TAT was only about 85 deg's C. (You could feel the difference too; the cabin windows felt only warm-ish to the touch). The upside also of all this was that your fuel burn was much lower than usual. (The only downside of course is that your TAS is a little lower). Rolls Royce did some analysis on the flight, and were amazed at how well the propulsion systems coped with some of the temperature sheers that we encountered, sometimes 4 to 5 deg's/second. They said that the prototype AFCS had been defeated by rises of only 0.25 deg's/second ).
Not meaning to go off onto a (yet another) tangent; Negative temperature shears, very common at lower lattidudes, always plagued the development aircraft; you would suddenly accelerate, and in the case of a severe shear, would accelerate and accelerate!! (Your Mach number, quite naturaly, suddenly increased with the falling temperature of course, but because of the powerplant suddenly hitting an area of hyper-efficiencey, the A/C would physically accelerate rapidly, way beyond Mmo). Many modifications were tried to mitigate the effects of severe shears, in the end a clever change to the intake control unit software fixed it. (Thanks to this change the production series A/C would not be capable of level flight Mach numbers of any more than Mach 2.13, remembering that Mmo was set at 2.04).
There was one lovely story, involving the Shah of Iran, having one of MANY flights in a developmment aircraft. The aircraft encounterd quite a hefty series of temperature shears that plagued havoc with some Iranian F4's that were attempting to close on the Concorde, to act as an escort for the Shah. (or so the strory goes). I'm still trying to picture these F4's, on full afterburner trying to get close to a Concorde cruising away on dry power). It is said that the F4's were having such difficulties, due to their relatively crude powerplant, coping with the temperature changes, that the Concorde was ordered to slow down, 'so the escorting F4's could catch up'!! True or not, it is part of Concorde folklore.
Dude
Last edited by M2dude; 24th Aug 2010 at 15:31 . Reason: spelling (again) :-(
25th Aug 2010, 18:39
permalink Post: 115
Thanks M2dude and all other aviation professionals for making us "normal" posters so welcome on this thread.
Being a child of the sixties I clearly remember the feeling that we were at the dawn of a new technological age and Concorde and the Apollo project were the outstanding examples of what was possible. Great times.
Am not a computer expert but I have always wondered if the limitations of the 60's hardware meant that the software had to be more elegantly desgined than now?
Having watched the ITVV Concorde DVD, Captain David Rowlands and SEO Roger Bricknell come over as very knowlegable and friendly people. I hope they are both enjoying their retirement.
Thanks again
Nick
Being a child of the sixties I clearly remember the feeling that we were at the dawn of a new technological age and Concorde and the Apollo project were the outstanding examples of what was possible. Great times.
Am not a computer expert but I have always wondered if the limitations of the 60's hardware meant that the software had to be more elegantly desgined than now?
Having watched the ITVV Concorde DVD, Captain David Rowlands and SEO Roger Bricknell come over as very knowlegable and friendly people. I hope they are both enjoying their retirement.
Thanks again
Nick
28th Aug 2010, 03:37
permalink Post: 149
SLF in the jump seat
I rode Concorde two or three times and what a ride it was!
On one occasion I had booked to travel BA 'J' class from Washington to Delhi on a regular business trip. Out of DCA to JFK they booked me on the 'Concorde shuttle' (a Dash 8 of US Airways, believe it or not) to connect with a 744 to LHR and another connection on to Delhi. At DCA check in the agent mumbled something about a catering problem out of JFK, but I took no particular notice. On arrival at Kennedy an agent with a name placard diverted me to the Concorde gate, a nice surprise indeed, even for a BA Gold Card holder.
On boarding Concorde, I gave my business card to the purser, asking that she pass it forward. A few minutes later as the door was closing she came back to pass along an invitation from the skipper to join them in the cockpit. During the short delay for start clearance, the captain briefed me on the Canarsie 31L departure I was about to watch from the jump seat behind. "3-2-1 GO" as the aircraft lept forward, V1/Vr/V2, 100', roll left 30 degrees to track towards Canarsie, 1' 30" (or something similar, some details are long forgotten now) power back for 500'/minute ROC to 3,000', then accelerate to 250K as the heading continued around for the outbound course and the ocean crossing. A true aerial ballet.
For the balance of the climb I plied the guys with questions and received courteous and detailed answers to every one, along with a 'freebie' - some hilarious repartee between the BALPA captain and the management F/O type, with occasional interjections by the Engineer. I stayed through the supersonic acceleration until I thought I'd worn out my welcome at cruise climb, returning to my seat in the mid cabin area for lunch. They invited me back for the descent and approach, which was very well appreciated.
On descent over the U.K. and passing through 10K' abeam Southampton, as I remember it we got a yellow 'Radiation' caution light (normally to warn of higher than normal levels of radiation in the tropoause from sun spot activity, I believe), which caused me to ask WTHWT? The slightly bored F/O said, as he cancelled the light, "Oh, its 'just' a nuclear power plant down there, we get this all the time"! (And for all these years I had swallowed the PR line from the nuclear industry that they were squeaky clean, unlike those of us in the aircraft manufacturing business??)
The approach and landing at LHR was fascinating to watch, without the frenetic activity of the departure. No flaps and no configuration change after gear down, virtually no flare, perhaps even a little nose down pitch as I observed (was that true??) the handling pilot just let it float into ground effect for a gentle touch down, snappily into reverse and heavy, but not maximum braking. It looked easy, of course.
The F/E was a key part of the entire operation and I find it hard to believe that a Concorde "B" would have eliminated his position, no matter how automated the systems might have become. The whole flight was very, very professionally handled with that air of apparent casualness that comes only from a very disciplined team operating at the peak of performance. A true joy to watch.
I guess I was just a minor part of the vaunted 'halo' effect that BA marketing always claimed for Concorde - its ability to pull additional traffic to its worldwide services in a very competitive business climate. But it sure worked for me! And all because of a catering misadventure, or was that just an excuse??
However, the thing that has always truly amazed me about Concorde is that this machine was created by two companies, two countries, with two languages, two systems of measure and two very different cultures in a period before the invention of Computer Aided Design and on-line communications! What a marvellous thing that mankind created. My hat off to you all.
Thank you, John, that was some flight!
TC
On one occasion I had booked to travel BA 'J' class from Washington to Delhi on a regular business trip. Out of DCA to JFK they booked me on the 'Concorde shuttle' (a Dash 8 of US Airways, believe it or not) to connect with a 744 to LHR and another connection on to Delhi. At DCA check in the agent mumbled something about a catering problem out of JFK, but I took no particular notice. On arrival at Kennedy an agent with a name placard diverted me to the Concorde gate, a nice surprise indeed, even for a BA Gold Card holder.
On boarding Concorde, I gave my business card to the purser, asking that she pass it forward. A few minutes later as the door was closing she came back to pass along an invitation from the skipper to join them in the cockpit. During the short delay for start clearance, the captain briefed me on the Canarsie 31L departure I was about to watch from the jump seat behind. "3-2-1 GO" as the aircraft lept forward, V1/Vr/V2, 100', roll left 30 degrees to track towards Canarsie, 1' 30" (or something similar, some details are long forgotten now) power back for 500'/minute ROC to 3,000', then accelerate to 250K as the heading continued around for the outbound course and the ocean crossing. A true aerial ballet.
For the balance of the climb I plied the guys with questions and received courteous and detailed answers to every one, along with a 'freebie' - some hilarious repartee between the BALPA captain and the management F/O type, with occasional interjections by the Engineer. I stayed through the supersonic acceleration until I thought I'd worn out my welcome at cruise climb, returning to my seat in the mid cabin area for lunch. They invited me back for the descent and approach, which was very well appreciated.
On descent over the U.K. and passing through 10K' abeam Southampton, as I remember it we got a yellow 'Radiation' caution light (normally to warn of higher than normal levels of radiation in the tropoause from sun spot activity, I believe), which caused me to ask WTHWT? The slightly bored F/O said, as he cancelled the light, "Oh, its 'just' a nuclear power plant down there, we get this all the time"! (And for all these years I had swallowed the PR line from the nuclear industry that they were squeaky clean, unlike those of us in the aircraft manufacturing business??)
The approach and landing at LHR was fascinating to watch, without the frenetic activity of the departure. No flaps and no configuration change after gear down, virtually no flare, perhaps even a little nose down pitch as I observed (was that true??) the handling pilot just let it float into ground effect for a gentle touch down, snappily into reverse and heavy, but not maximum braking. It looked easy, of course.
The F/E was a key part of the entire operation and I find it hard to believe that a Concorde "B" would have eliminated his position, no matter how automated the systems might have become. The whole flight was very, very professionally handled with that air of apparent casualness that comes only from a very disciplined team operating at the peak of performance. A true joy to watch.
I guess I was just a minor part of the vaunted 'halo' effect that BA marketing always claimed for Concorde - its ability to pull additional traffic to its worldwide services in a very competitive business climate. But it sure worked for me! And all because of a catering misadventure, or was that just an excuse??
However, the thing that has always truly amazed me about Concorde is that this machine was created by two companies, two countries, with two languages, two systems of measure and two very different cultures in a period before the invention of Computer Aided Design and on-line communications! What a marvellous thing that mankind created. My hat off to you all.
Thank you, John, that was some flight!
TC
Last edited by twochai; 28th Aug 2010 at 04:05 .
3rd Sep 2010, 20:17
permalink Post: 203
Bigggles78
Brit312 has certainly answered your query about the Braniff crew issue; I remember being told that one of their captains, a Texan who allegedly wore big cowboy boots while flying, had an ambition at '3,2,1, NOW..' to KICK the throttles open with the sole of his right boot. Never did find out if this ever happened.
The Braniff operation does seem a little crazy now, I must admit. They were supposed to have had long term ideas of serving the Pacific Rim with Concorde, it's a pity that we never got the chance to find out if that could have worked.
Dude
Brit312 has certainly answered your query about the Braniff crew issue; I remember being told that one of their captains, a Texan who allegedly wore big cowboy boots while flying, had an ambition at '3,2,1, NOW..' to KICK the throttles open with the sole of his right boot. Never did find out if this ever happened.
The Braniff operation does seem a little crazy now, I must admit. They were supposed to have had long term ideas of serving the Pacific Rim with Concorde, it's a pity that we never got the chance to find out if that could have worked.
Dude
3rd Sep 2010, 20:49
permalink Post: 205
M2dude,
The Braniff crews were great characters and yes many did wear cowboy boats, but the story I like is the one that goes as follows
After hours of briefing prior to going on the simulator [for the first time] the Braniff crew got on the sim and went through all their checks, started the engines and taxied out to the end of the runway for their first Concorde sim take-off. Everybody was strapped in with seats in the correct position and all checks complete.
The Captain called out "3,2,1, now" and all the throttles were moved sharply to full power and away we went with the visual showing the runway passing by at an ever increasing rate. Now the F/E had a couple of calls to make prior to V1 relating to how good the engines were performing the most important being at 100 kts, however before we got that far the Braniff F/E stood up in his harness and let out the cry " Gee Whiz look at the son of a bitch go".
Needless to say that take off was stopped and we went back to start again at the end of the runway
The Braniff crews were great characters and yes many did wear cowboy boats, but the story I like is the one that goes as follows
After hours of briefing prior to going on the simulator [for the first time] the Braniff crew got on the sim and went through all their checks, started the engines and taxied out to the end of the runway for their first Concorde sim take-off. Everybody was strapped in with seats in the correct position and all checks complete.
The Captain called out "3,2,1, now" and all the throttles were moved sharply to full power and away we went with the visual showing the runway passing by at an ever increasing rate. Now the F/E had a couple of calls to make prior to V1 relating to how good the engines were performing the most important being at 100 kts, however before we got that far the Braniff F/E stood up in his harness and let out the cry " Gee Whiz look at the son of a bitch go".
Needless to say that take off was stopped and we went back to start again at the end of the runway
3rd Sep 2010, 21:12
permalink Post: 206
Awesome thread guys...special thanks to M2dude etal
Hey folks, I too have a wonderful love of the beautiful lady "Concorde"
I jsut fly the little ole 73 for Southwest. A former Braniff Captain, working as an instructor now(age 60 hit him); named Jerry white...has told me many fascinating stories of flying Concorde.
I could sit and listen to him all day long.
Not too long ago, fslabs released a version of Concorde for Microsoft flight sim FSX.
Don't know if any of you "Concorde" folks as well as others have seen it.
If not, take a look at Flight Sim Labs, Ltd.
From what I understand, this is as close to flying a real Concorde as you can get. Marvelous bit of programming. I know a lot of the systems, flight model etc..were verified by former Concorde crews for accuracy.
Check it out when you have the time.
Now back to reading....
Best,
David
I jsut fly the little ole 73 for Southwest. A former Braniff Captain, working as an instructor now(age 60 hit him); named Jerry white...has told me many fascinating stories of flying Concorde.
I could sit and listen to him all day long.
Not too long ago, fslabs released a version of Concorde for Microsoft flight sim FSX.
Don't know if any of you "Concorde" folks as well as others have seen it.
If not, take a look at Flight Sim Labs, Ltd.
From what I understand, this is as close to flying a real Concorde as you can get. Marvelous bit of programming. I know a lot of the systems, flight model etc..were verified by former Concorde crews for accuracy.
Check it out when you have the time.
Now back to reading....
Best,
David
5th Sep 2010, 11:56
permalink Post: 217
In-Flight Reverse (A case of Bucket and See)
Capt Chambo
Concorde was, as EXWOK says, could use reverse in flight, on the inboard engines only, and only as far as reverse idle, the mechanism of which was quite complex and did on occasion not do work as advertised. Bear in mind here that the Rolls Royce Olympus 593 was a pure turbojet with no bypass, and so a hot stream reverser only had to be used; the reverser buckets acting directly on the efflux as it did any reverser in the 'old' days. Also the same buckets that were used for reverse were also progressively opened up between Mach 0.55 and wide open at Mach 1.1, this giving a vital control enhancement to the divergencing efflux. The overall effect of this was to give a true overall convergent/divergent nozzle assembly, the ideal for any supersonic aircraft.
As far as inflight reverse goes, the amount of HP compressor delivery air (P3) required to actuate the bucket airmotor in flight at an idle thrust settings, was quite minimal to say the least, and some help was definitely needed here. The moment that inflight reverse was selected (on the inboard engines only remember) the OUTBOARD engines would have their idle N2 automatically increased, and some of THEIR P3 air supply was also automatically ported over (via an isolation valve) to the inboard buckets. This whole process was required in order to give a little added muscle to the bucket airmotors, and give the system a fighting chance. Even this however was still not quite enough, the inboard travelling buckets required minimal air loading on their surface, and so the primary nozzles for the affected engines (the primary nozzle lived just aft of the LP turbine, aft of the reheat assembly) was automatically signalled wide open in order to assist matters here, by reducing gas velocity. One the buckets had reached full reverse the primary nozzle was then signalled full close (this applied for normal ground reverse also) and the automatic increased idle on the outboard engines was cancelled. To enable the described process to occur, provided all four engines were at idle, a solenoid latched button on the F/E's station could be selected. This signalled a circuit that enabled the selection of idle reverse on the inboard engines only, the opening of the P3 isolation valve, the raising of the outboard engine's idle and maximum primary nozzle angle for the outboards as soon as reverse was then selected..
The whole system was just a little fragile here; failure of either the extra air supply, or the raised idle on the 'other' engine was usually enough to stop the process working correctly.
EXWOK
While flying 'up front' I only ever experienced the use of inflight reverse once. (The captain was a bit of an Animal, if you flying guys see what I mean
). I would not say that it felt as if we'd hit a brick wall, as I'd expected the sensation to feel, more like we were flying into the dumped contents of a very large manure truck
. The whole operation was so slick, we'd dumped the required amount of IAS more or less within a second or two, and normal thrust was immediately selected. As so often happened with you guys, you made it look too easy.
As far as the speed of the airmotor goes, I seem to remember that it was something in the order of 80,000 RPM at max chat; as you say faster (around twice as fast) as the standby horizon motor.
The basic core airmotor (not the whole assembly) was the same Garrett unit used on the P&W JT9 as well as the RB-211.
Dude
Concorde was, as EXWOK says, could use reverse in flight, on the inboard engines only, and only as far as reverse idle, the mechanism of which was quite complex and did on occasion not do work as advertised. Bear in mind here that the Rolls Royce Olympus 593 was a pure turbojet with no bypass, and so a hot stream reverser only had to be used; the reverser buckets acting directly on the efflux as it did any reverser in the 'old' days. Also the same buckets that were used for reverse were also progressively opened up between Mach 0.55 and wide open at Mach 1.1, this giving a vital control enhancement to the divergencing efflux. The overall effect of this was to give a true overall convergent/divergent nozzle assembly, the ideal for any supersonic aircraft.
As far as inflight reverse goes, the amount of HP compressor delivery air (P3) required to actuate the bucket airmotor in flight at an idle thrust settings, was quite minimal to say the least, and some help was definitely needed here. The moment that inflight reverse was selected (on the inboard engines only remember) the OUTBOARD engines would have their idle N2 automatically increased, and some of THEIR P3 air supply was also automatically ported over (via an isolation valve) to the inboard buckets. This whole process was required in order to give a little added muscle to the bucket airmotors, and give the system a fighting chance. Even this however was still not quite enough, the inboard travelling buckets required minimal air loading on their surface, and so the primary nozzles for the affected engines (the primary nozzle lived just aft of the LP turbine, aft of the reheat assembly) was automatically signalled wide open in order to assist matters here, by reducing gas velocity. One the buckets had reached full reverse the primary nozzle was then signalled full close (this applied for normal ground reverse also) and the automatic increased idle on the outboard engines was cancelled. To enable the described process to occur, provided all four engines were at idle, a solenoid latched button on the F/E's station could be selected. This signalled a circuit that enabled the selection of idle reverse on the inboard engines only, the opening of the P3 isolation valve, the raising of the outboard engine's idle and maximum primary nozzle angle for the outboards as soon as reverse was then selected..
The whole system was just a little fragile here; failure of either the extra air supply, or the raised idle on the 'other' engine was usually enough to stop the process working correctly.
EXWOK
While flying 'up front' I only ever experienced the use of inflight reverse once. (The captain was a bit of an Animal, if you flying guys see what I mean
). I would not say that it felt as if we'd hit a brick wall, as I'd expected the sensation to feel, more like we were flying into the dumped contents of a very large manure truck
. The whole operation was so slick, we'd dumped the required amount of IAS more or less within a second or two, and normal thrust was immediately selected. As so often happened with you guys, you made it look too easy.
As far as the speed of the airmotor goes, I seem to remember that it was something in the order of 80,000 RPM at max chat; as you say faster (around twice as fast) as the standby horizon motor.
The basic core airmotor (not the whole assembly) was the same Garrett unit used on the P&W JT9 as well as the RB-211.
Dude
Last edited by M2dude; 5th Sep 2010 at 13:25 .
9th Sep 2010, 00:09
permalink Post: 286
Quote:
| I cannot think of a civil airliner where the nose gear retracts backwards - they all retract forwards. |
A small handpump is used to ensure downlock after freefall extension. (The Dash 8 and Fokker 50 have - much larger and draggier - backwards retracting main gear, assisted by handpump and springloading respectively for downlock after emergency freefall extension.)
Thanks to all Concorde experts for this truly wonderful thread. The ingenuity of design and the complexity of design that enabled the technological marvel that is Concorde never cease to amaze this humble airline driver. Having missed the opportunity to fly on Concorde is high on my list of aviatic regrets as well, and I'll have to make do with the memories of watching Air France Concordes taking off from CDG during our turnarounds there.
I could (and actually have) spent hours following this thread.
Is it true that Concorde was always flown by the highest seniority BA captains, copilots and flight engineers? Would Concorde usually be the last rung on the ladder before retirement for Captains/FEs or was it usual to return to slower equipment after a stint on Concorde?
And, sorry if I missed this, would Concorde thrust levers move during autothrottle operation?
Lastly, Concorde was originally to have had a large moving map system. Any insights into why and how that got scrapped along the way?
Thanks!
9th Sep 2010, 07:51
permalink Post: 289
Alpine Flyer
And a darned good airplane too
One for my 'winged' friends really, but with BA it was an issue of seniority, with a long waiting list for selection. As far as I recall there were only ever a couple of cases when a captain left the fleet for another aircraft, most would very happily fly Concorde until retirement at 55. The senior first officers generally had to (reluctantly) change fleets when they got their commands, however there was as far as I remember two exceptions here, where an SFO was able to 'jump seats' to captain. SEOs would stay on Concorde until retirement. (In all the years that I can remember there was only one case of an
SEO
switching fleets from Concorde). A pilot friend once put it to me that if your passion in life was as a flyer of aeroplanes, then there was really nowhere to go after Concorde.
Oh yes, Concorde had a 'real' full flight flight regime autothrottle. The autothrottle actuator would drive all four levers together via individual isolation clutches and the computer used the sum of all four lever angles. In the unlikely event of an engine being shut down in flight, the A/T could still be used. There was an isolation switch on the roof panel that would enable the affected engine's thrust lever to be isolated and closed to idle, the computer using the sigmals from the other three engines, demanding a now higher lever angle to compensate for the failed engine.
The prototypes I recall had a DECCA moving map, but with the availability of INS (and the decline and finally shutting down of the DECCA chains) made the system a waste of time (not to mention space).
Dude
Quote:
| Well, the deHavilland Dash 7 has one, and I will take exception to anyone denying it airliner status. |
Quote:
| Is it true that Concorde was always flown by the highest seniority BA captains, copilots and flight engineers? Would Concorde usually be the last rung on the ladder before retirement for Captains/FEs or was it usual to return to slower equipment after a stint on Concorde? |
Quote:
| And, sorry if I missed this, would Concorde thrust levers move during autothrottle operation? |
Quote:
| Lastly, Concorde was originally to have had a large moving map system. Any insights into why and how that got scrapped along the way? |
Dude
9th Sep 2010, 11:58
permalink Post: 293
ALPINE FLYER
Is it true that Concorde was always flown by the highest seniority BA captains, copilots and flight engineers? Would Concorde usually be the last rung on the ladder before retirement for Captains/FEs or was it usual to return to slower equipment after a stint on Concorde?
To answer your question fully the fleets history has to be broken into two halves, that is the first 10 years and then all the time after that
The first ten years
When the fleet was very new 1976 and crews were bidding for it you have to remember that it was a BOAC aircraft and only BOAC crews could bid onto it. Very few people saw a long future for the aircraft and so were reluctant to go through the long training if it was only going to last for a few years
Also because it always had a limited route net work then there was far more money to be made on say the B747 with it's large route network
Anyway this all opened up the fleet to the younger members of the flight crew fraternity, and indeed the youngest Captain on Concorde at that time was only 32 years old with the youngest F/E being 29 years old. Indeed most of the crews on joining the fleet were in their 30's or early 40's and nowhere near being the most senior. With the exception of the F/Os most of these crews stayed with the aircraft until retirement so in the end it became a senior fleet. Indeed 20 years and even up to 24 years was the term that some stayed on the fleet for.
After 1985 when cross bidding was allowed between the old BEA and BOAC
and Concorde started recruiting crews again then people had to be fairly senior to get onto the fleet as people could see a future for the aircraft and realized it looked exciting.
It was never really a fleet for the most senior as you could as a Captain or F/E only bid for the fleet if you had at least 7 years to go to retirement and the F/Os had to be willing to forgo their oppurtunity for cammand for at least 5 years although this was sometimes ignored
F/O had to leave the fleet to get their command, but many came back as soon as their new Captains seniority allowed them to
Some Captains and 2 F/Es did leave the fleet for another aircraft prior to retirement
Therefore you can see with crew numbers hovering around 20 sets and this was reduced near the end it was no wonder that Concorde was known as the Boys club and Barbara was one of the boys too
On Circuit training tyres were always our problem, especially when we could not have the spare hubs /tyres made up locally by a man from the tyre workshop. Instead we had to bring ready made up wheels with us and the rest delivered by truck. This was no real problem when we did our circuit training in the UK ,but when we moved it to France then the logistics became more difficult.
If I remember correctly you would be lucky to get more than 20 landings out of a tyre, with the rear mains taking the biggest hammering and often being changed quite a bit before 20 landings. With up to 6 details a day and each detail consisting of up to 10 landings you can see that tyre usage on training was heavy
Fingers tired now
Is it true that Concorde was always flown by the highest seniority BA captains, copilots and flight engineers? Would Concorde usually be the last rung on the ladder before retirement for Captains/FEs or was it usual to return to slower equipment after a stint on Concorde?
To answer your question fully the fleets history has to be broken into two halves, that is the first 10 years and then all the time after that
The first ten years
When the fleet was very new 1976 and crews were bidding for it you have to remember that it was a BOAC aircraft and only BOAC crews could bid onto it. Very few people saw a long future for the aircraft and so were reluctant to go through the long training if it was only going to last for a few years
Also because it always had a limited route net work then there was far more money to be made on say the B747 with it's large route network
Anyway this all opened up the fleet to the younger members of the flight crew fraternity, and indeed the youngest Captain on Concorde at that time was only 32 years old with the youngest F/E being 29 years old. Indeed most of the crews on joining the fleet were in their 30's or early 40's and nowhere near being the most senior. With the exception of the F/Os most of these crews stayed with the aircraft until retirement so in the end it became a senior fleet. Indeed 20 years and even up to 24 years was the term that some stayed on the fleet for.
After 1985 when cross bidding was allowed between the old BEA and BOAC
and Concorde started recruiting crews again then people had to be fairly senior to get onto the fleet as people could see a future for the aircraft and realized it looked exciting.
It was never really a fleet for the most senior as you could as a Captain or F/E only bid for the fleet if you had at least 7 years to go to retirement and the F/Os had to be willing to forgo their oppurtunity for cammand for at least 5 years although this was sometimes ignored
F/O had to leave the fleet to get their command, but many came back as soon as their new Captains seniority allowed them to
Some Captains and 2 F/Es did leave the fleet for another aircraft prior to retirement
Therefore you can see with crew numbers hovering around 20 sets and this was reduced near the end it was no wonder that Concorde was known as the Boys club and Barbara was one of the boys too
On Circuit training tyres were always our problem, especially when we could not have the spare hubs /tyres made up locally by a man from the tyre workshop. Instead we had to bring ready made up wheels with us and the rest delivered by truck. This was no real problem when we did our circuit training in the UK ,but when we moved it to France then the logistics became more difficult.
If I remember correctly you would be lucky to get more than 20 landings out of a tyre, with the rear mains taking the biggest hammering and often being changed quite a bit before 20 landings. With up to 6 details a day and each detail consisting of up to 10 landings you can see that tyre usage on training was heavy
Fingers tired now
9th Sep 2010, 22:28
permalink Post: 304
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by
Shaft109
Were there ever any female pilots / FEs? Or did any women pilots ever fly Concorde?
|
Barbara Harmer at British Airways.
The first female Concorde airline pilot.
She became F/O on Concorde in 1993.
After the end-of-service, she continued to fly 777s with BA.
.
B\xe9atrice Valle at Air France.
After a long career as a pilot, she finally was selected for Concorde... and then the Paris crash happened.
But she persisted, and in the end she did 35 return flights CDG-JFK before the final end-of-service.
She then became captain on 747s.
Apart from Jacqueline Auriol , well-known French 'aviatrice' and test pilot, who flew once on the Concorde prototype, I do not know of anybody else.
And no, there is no record of any female F/Es.
CJ
9th Sep 2010, 22:37
permalink Post: 305
Shaft109
The world has only ever had one Concorde female flight crew member, a really wonderful lady who is known as Barbara Harmer. Barbara was an SFO on the BA Concode fleet, joining us in 1993. You can read all about her here:
Barbara Harmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
After she eventually left the Concorde fleet, Barbara became Captain Harmer, flying the Boeing 777 for BA.
Oops ChristiaanJ, never knew about B\xe9atrice Valle, salutations to her also.
Dude
Quote:
| Were there ever any female pilots / FEs? Or did any women pilots ever fly Concorde? |
Barbara Harmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
After she eventually left the Concorde fleet, Barbara became Captain Harmer, flying the Boeing 777 for BA.
Oops ChristiaanJ, never knew about B\xe9atrice Valle, salutations to her also.
Dude
10th Sep 2010, 10:01
permalink Post: 310
Thank you for allowing me, a non-techy, to participate in your lovely thread!
Just a short story about the adorable, charming and all-round fantastic bloke, Capt. John Cook.
During an exceptionally busy flight (MPs, press with cameras and sound booms on board - cc trying to negotiate the aisle with mayhem abounding) - John came out of the F/D and was standing in the forward galley looking bewildered.
"What can I do for you, skip?" I asked as I rushed in to replenish a drinks tray.
"Oh Landlady, thank goodness.... I'd love a coffee but I can't work the boiler............"
This from a training captain par excellence, with a twinkle in his eye who knew every inch of that machine - (and in the days before bev makers), who just wanted to save me a job!
I hope the angels are making your coffee now, John.
But that's what everyone was like....we certainly were a team which, I'm sorry to say, isn't always the case these days.
Now boys, I will leave you to get back to your sprockets and widgets.
Just a short story about the adorable, charming and all-round fantastic bloke, Capt. John Cook.
During an exceptionally busy flight (MPs, press with cameras and sound booms on board - cc trying to negotiate the aisle with mayhem abounding) - John came out of the F/D and was standing in the forward galley looking bewildered.
"What can I do for you, skip?" I asked as I rushed in to replenish a drinks tray.
"Oh Landlady, thank goodness.... I'd love a coffee but I can't work the boiler............"
This from a training captain par excellence, with a twinkle in his eye who knew every inch of that machine - (and in the days before bev makers), who just wanted to save me a job!
I hope the angels are making your coffee now, John.
But that's what everyone was like....we certainly were a team which, I'm sorry to say, isn't always the case these days.
Now boys, I will leave you to get back to your sprockets and widgets.
12th Sep 2010, 08:57
permalink Post: 326
Hi again Stilton. We really need one of the flying folk to answer this one fully, I am not sure what drill there was for this scenario, but I'm sure there was one. The Concorde flying manual had a drill for everything, from a four engine flame out at Mach 2 to a blocked toilet (ok, maybe not the loo thing ), and one of my winged friends EXWOK, Bellerophon,
SEO
Brit312 would remember one.
As far as your point about moving the CG further aft; you never had oodles of fuel to play with , and I'm sure that the guys will mention about handling the aircraft on approach with the CG too far aft. (After landing four tonnes of fuel were transferred from Tanks 5 & 7 into the empty fwd Trim Tank 9, 'to aid ground stability'. ie, help stop the aircraft from trying to sit on it's rear end as the passengers got off).
As far as your visor query goes, well the visor is either up, or retracted into the nose. The nose itself (which I suspect is what you are really referring to) would already be at the fully down 12 1/2 degree setting for landing anyway.
Oh, and back to the ground stability issue, was Concorde ever sat on it's tail by accident? Oh yes, just once to my knowledge. In May 1977, aircraft G-BOAA was returned to Filton for some modifications that were required, and part of these 'mods' was some improvements to the main trim-transfer pipes connecting the three trim transfer tanks 9, 10 & 11, as well as the trim tanks 5 & 7. Now the flow into tank 11 (the rear tank) had to be checked, but there was insufficient fuel at the front of the aircraft for stability. This shortcoming was passed on to the BAe manager in charge of everything, who stuffily refused to listen, and INSISTED that these transfer checks were carried out, 'do as I tell you, I am the manager here'. The man's sole concession to any sort of common sense was to allow a BAe employee to sit on the flight deck 'and watch the CG indicator', what the point of this was, well your guess is as good as mine. The name of the guy sitting on the flight deck was... John Thomas. (Hilarious I know, but true). So in goes the fuel, and in a very short period of time, John Thomas notices that the roof of the Filton assembly hangar seems to be slowly getting closer, and closer, and BANG!! The aircraft nose is high into the roof section of the hangar, but fortunately because the hangar is so huge, the nose did not hit anything, it was just stuck up there, complete with a very worried/terrified John Thomas who is sitting terrified in the captain's seat, staring at the hangar roof. The rear of the aircraft however was not so lucky. The right hand inner elevon came down on top of a hydraulic rig, damaging the elevon badly, as well as FLATTENING the rig. The opened #3 engine bay door came down on some large access steps, tearing the corner of the door. (not much left of the steps either). The rear fuselage, in the area of the hydraulic tanks, was holed quite badly by some access staging, entire spectacle coming to a very 'grinding' halt.
So now we have this Concorde G-BOAA, due to be returned to BA the following day, sat down on top of a lot of equipment, it's nose high in the air with a terrified John Thomas requiring a change of underwear.
(The brilliant manager of course was nowhere to be seen). The aircraft was eventually returned to it's rightful attitude by someone WITH some sense instructing Mr Thomas on how to slowly, a little at a time, pump the fuel from Tank 11 forward into Tank 9.
And was OAA returned to BA the following day? errr no. The best skin repair man that BAe had to offer was sent from Weybridge to sort out the holes in the rear fuselage (he did an amazing job) and the crunched bits of aeroplane were repaired or replaced. OAA flew back to Heathrow four short (??) days later.
Dude
As far as your point about moving the CG further aft; you never had oodles of fuel to play with , and I'm sure that the guys will mention about handling the aircraft on approach with the CG too far aft. (After landing four tonnes of fuel were transferred from Tanks 5 & 7 into the empty fwd Trim Tank 9, 'to aid ground stability'. ie, help stop the aircraft from trying to sit on it's rear end as the passengers got off).
As far as your visor query goes, well the visor is either up, or retracted into the nose. The nose itself (which I suspect is what you are really referring to) would already be at the fully down 12 1/2 degree setting for landing anyway.
Oh, and back to the ground stability issue, was Concorde ever sat on it's tail by accident? Oh yes, just once to my knowledge. In May 1977, aircraft G-BOAA was returned to Filton for some modifications that were required, and part of these 'mods' was some improvements to the main trim-transfer pipes connecting the three trim transfer tanks 9, 10 & 11, as well as the trim tanks 5 & 7. Now the flow into tank 11 (the rear tank) had to be checked, but there was insufficient fuel at the front of the aircraft for stability. This shortcoming was passed on to the BAe manager in charge of everything, who stuffily refused to listen, and INSISTED that these transfer checks were carried out, 'do as I tell you, I am the manager here'. The man's sole concession to any sort of common sense was to allow a BAe employee to sit on the flight deck 'and watch the CG indicator', what the point of this was, well your guess is as good as mine. The name of the guy sitting on the flight deck was... John Thomas. (Hilarious I know, but true). So in goes the fuel, and in a very short period of time, John Thomas notices that the roof of the Filton assembly hangar seems to be slowly getting closer, and closer, and BANG!! The aircraft nose is high into the roof section of the hangar, but fortunately because the hangar is so huge, the nose did not hit anything, it was just stuck up there, complete with a very worried/terrified John Thomas who is sitting terrified in the captain's seat, staring at the hangar roof. The rear of the aircraft however was not so lucky. The right hand inner elevon came down on top of a hydraulic rig, damaging the elevon badly, as well as FLATTENING the rig. The opened #3 engine bay door came down on some large access steps, tearing the corner of the door. (not much left of the steps either). The rear fuselage, in the area of the hydraulic tanks, was holed quite badly by some access staging, entire spectacle coming to a very 'grinding' halt.
So now we have this Concorde G-BOAA, due to be returned to BA the following day, sat down on top of a lot of equipment, it's nose high in the air with a terrified John Thomas requiring a change of underwear.
(The brilliant manager of course was nowhere to be seen). The aircraft was eventually returned to it's rightful attitude by someone WITH some sense instructing Mr Thomas on how to slowly, a little at a time, pump the fuel from Tank 11 forward into Tank 9.
And was OAA returned to BA the following day? errr no. The best skin repair man that BAe had to offer was sent from Weybridge to sort out the holes in the rear fuselage (he did an amazing job) and the crunched bits of aeroplane were repaired or replaced. OAA flew back to Heathrow four short (??) days later.
Dude
14th Sep 2010, 14:56
permalink Post: 353
Extended leave doesn't happen so much in this very commercial world.......
To start with we stayed current in the sim. After a month or so it was obvious that this was a long term event and the company would find something for us to do in return for our salary.
A minor complication was that we knew we were going to need fewer pilots as the decision had already been made to reduce the charter programme, so we weren't all coming back. There were no other FE positions in BA so that was a further issue.
At least one Captain retired during the grounding, which was a sad way to finish. Others who had been on the fleet for less than 5 years went back to their previous fleet (old rating only needing revalidation). Others had the opportunity to bid for positions elsewhere in the normal annual conversion process; some used the tactical skills required to fly Concorde to great effect, and evaded capture for a long time....
For SFOs one was allowed to bid in the normal process or be directed to another fleet. The rules didn't allow direction to the Left Seat, so most bid off to various command positions - the most senior (who would have the seniority to return) and the most junior (who were pretty much doomed to leave the fleet as it shrank). Those in the middle (2 of us!)stuck it out and were directed to the RHS of other fleets, but at least with the knowledge that if the bird flew again we were guaranteed to get back (Quite a gamble at this stage).
I'm ashamed to say I can't remember where all the SFEs went, but they were spread in a diaspora through various departments.
Most unfortunate of all crews were those on the very last Concorde conversion course (No. 30, I think) who finished after the grounding and never got to fly the thing. All that work..................
To start with we stayed current in the sim. After a month or so it was obvious that this was a long term event and the company would find something for us to do in return for our salary.
A minor complication was that we knew we were going to need fewer pilots as the decision had already been made to reduce the charter programme, so we weren't all coming back. There were no other FE positions in BA so that was a further issue.
At least one Captain retired during the grounding, which was a sad way to finish. Others who had been on the fleet for less than 5 years went back to their previous fleet (old rating only needing revalidation). Others had the opportunity to bid for positions elsewhere in the normal annual conversion process; some used the tactical skills required to fly Concorde to great effect, and evaded capture for a long time....
For SFOs one was allowed to bid in the normal process or be directed to another fleet. The rules didn't allow direction to the Left Seat, so most bid off to various command positions - the most senior (who would have the seniority to return) and the most junior (who were pretty much doomed to leave the fleet as it shrank). Those in the middle (2 of us!)stuck it out and were directed to the RHS of other fleets, but at least with the knowledge that if the bird flew again we were guaranteed to get back (Quite a gamble at this stage).
I'm ashamed to say I can't remember where all the SFEs went, but they were spread in a diaspora through various departments.
Most unfortunate of all crews were those on the very last Concorde conversion course (No. 30, I think) who finished after the grounding and never got to fly the thing. All that work..................