ATC Page: 1 of 31

MechEngr
January 30, 2025, 03:21:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816809

How did the top many measures that are in place to prevent this not prevent this?

TCAS
ATC
ADS-B
See and Avoid
Filing a flight plan
Not operating in controlled airspace without a transponder
Not operating at a landing altitude for aircraft on final for a well used runway
Announcing an intention to cross a well used approach
Position lights/strobes
Landing lights

Just spitballing, but there's a non-zero chance NVGs were in use in the helicopter.

It sucks that the best part of this is the airplane was a CRJ, not a larger airliner. Most all those passengers would have survived the initial collision and been aware during the fall to the river.

I feel rage.

Subjects ADSB (All) ATC CRJ Night Vision Goggles (NVG) See and Avoid TCAS (All)

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nomess
January 30, 2025, 04:01:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816838

According to reports ATC asked if they had the RJ in sight which they confirmed. Seems like they had something else.

Did they hit the shoreline? Seems to be a large operation closer to the shoreline not in the middle of the river.

Subjects ATC

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WillowRun 6-3
January 30, 2025, 04:31:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816859

CNN reporting generally ATC transmission in which another flight stated that it had witnessed the collision. Will be valuable information for investigation.

Dumbfounded by midair in this airspace.

Subjects ATC CNN

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island_airphoto
January 30, 2025, 04:40:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816867

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3

CNN reporting generally ATC transmission in which another flight stated that it had witnessed the collision. Will be valuable information for investigation.

Dumbfounded by midair in this airspace.

I used to fly out of KVKX just barely outside the Bravo and was over at KDCA a lot. Everything that moves is tracked there, it is beyond belief that this happened where it did. Just FYI and not sure if this is a factor, but if you fly right over a helicopter you get sucked down.

Subjects ATC CNN KDCA

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BFSGrad
January 30, 2025, 05:23:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816892

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capi_Cafre'

A late change to 33 had the potential to put the jet low and in conflict with the helicopter corridor.

Don\x92t think it was a late change. Listening to LiveATC, local controller (LC) calls the CRJ at 1200 ft, inbound 33, over the Wilson Bridge as a traffic advisory to PAT25. Don\x92t hear reply but it sounds like LC then says \x93visual separation approved.

LC then approves AAL1630 for immediate takeoff runway 1 with advisory of CRJ on 2-mile left base for 33.

LC queries PAT25 \x93do you have the CRJ in sight\x94? No reply heard but LC then directs PAT25 to pass behind the CRJ.

PAT25 may have been watching next in sequence, AAL3130, landing runway 1, instead of CRJ.

Subjects ATC CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Separation (ALL)

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pparkes111
January 30, 2025, 05:30:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816895

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capi_Cafre'

A late change to 33 had the potential to put the jet low and in conflict with the helicopter corridor.

is there consensus as to whether ATC is supposed to account for low level helicopter traffic? It seems like ATC would not be responsible for this since military routes are standardized. Someone else said change to 33 was normal procedure.

Subjects ATC

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Kenny
January 30, 2025, 06:03:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816904

Quote:

Originally Posted by pparkes111

Was based in DCA for a couple of years. A late change did happen occasionally but generally you\x92d be given the \x93circle to land 33\x94 instruction, on initial contact with the tower. Helos transiting the airspace north or southbound along the river, always contacted DCA tower. It\x92s been a few years, so they may have changed how they do things but that was the SOP 15 years ago.

Subjects ATC DCA

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Ignition Override
January 30, 2025, 06:11:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816907

My extra prayer, other than for the victims' families, and possibly for a truly despondent ATC controller

, is that No children were on the CRJ.

All of my flights into DCA (1985-2017) --mostly DC-9, MD-88, 717 --were on the profiles over the Potomac River, to land on Rwy 19, or for Rwy 01, flying the ILS or a charted visual while going north over the river.
We Never were required to use "see-and-avoid" to maintain safe separation from helicopters or any fixed-wing aircraft iirc.

Was the ATC controller so Busy watching Other aircraft on his radar that he could not clear the helicopter to fly a southeast (ie 150 *) heading--- to keep it well east of the final approach for Rwy 33, until the CRJ was clearly west of the heli, on final approach?
Or a similar separation?

Last edited by Ignition Override; 30th January 2025 at 06:25 .

Subjects ATC CRJ DCA Radar Separation (ALL)

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Denflnt
January 30, 2025, 06:45:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816920

I have seen comments that the AA CJ was diverted to a different runway. In the video I've seen, there was an aircraft taking off and banking to the left when the incident happened. I am wondering if the helo crew figured the AA flight was landing on the main runway and when asked, couldn't see them among the ground light clutter. Still, no reason I can see for that helo to be anywhere near that spot and ATC asking them if they had a visual on the CRJ indicates, to me, that ATC didn't have a picture was to what was going on.

Subjects ATC CRJ

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LessThanSte
January 30, 2025, 06:51:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816922

Interviewee on the BBC a few minutes ago suggested, as above, the potential for the helicopter crew to have mistakenly identified the aircraft departing (on further back on approach) rather than the CRJ they hit.

On the face of it, that seems stupid but is, I guess, entirely plausible as others have noted above (angles, spotting the specific dot of a moving light!).

But that ignores all of the other systems which could prevent such an incident. Did ATC switch attention to something else, and miss the opportunity to intervene when it became apparent that both aircraft were getting close. Etc.

Seems baffling that this could happen in such a tight controlled environment...

Subjects ATC CRJ

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Simplythebeast
January 30, 2025, 07:02:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816927

Quote:

Originally Posted by MechEngr

what is a \x93non-zero chance\x94? Is it the same as a chance or more like a certainty? Confused by what seems like an American expression.

Subjects ADSB (All) ATC CRJ Night Vision Goggles (NVG) See and Avoid TCAS (All)

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LOWI
January 30, 2025, 07:24:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816945

RIP.

US ATC has been screwing up a lot over the past 2 years. Runway incursions and near misses in the air. Tonight the Swiss cheese holes have aligned and 16 years of US aviation safety has come crashing down into the icy cold Potomac river. Anybody remember our last hero of that river Lenny Skutnik?

US ATC needs an immediate review because this crash might not be the only one for us in 2025...

Subjects ATC Close Calls

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cbradio
January 30, 2025, 07:33:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816953

Quote:

Originally Posted by LessThanSte

Did ATC switch attention to something else, and miss the opportunity to intervene when it became apparent that both aircraft were getting close. Etc.

Seems baffling that this could happen in such a tight controlled environment...

If a helicopter is "passing behind" a jet they have previously sighted, they are going to get close. That's the point of visual separation.

doing like that at night, with so many aircraft and ground clutter, I'm not so sure about

Subjects ATC Separation (ALL) Visual Separation

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LOWI
January 30, 2025, 07:39:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816957

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2H5OH

Now close this darn airport which is there for convenience of the political class and their servants only. Fix parallel approches in SFO, reduce movements at JFK by 30%, etc p.p., the list is long. Or have a deja-vu in a couple of months.

Absolutely agree! Lufthansa refused the night visual separation a couple of years ago at SFO for this very reason! They were punished by US ATC because of this! We must never take these stupid risks with passengers onboard!

But what will be the response to this crash? Increase the 1500 hour rule most likely.... Europe has guys with 200 hours flying 737s and A320s between countries where English is the 2nd language!

Subjects ATC Separation (ALL) Visual Separation

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Return_2_Stand
January 30, 2025, 07:44:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816960

Having followed many of the near misses in the US in recent years, I find US ATC procedures scary. I always thought it was just a matter of time.

Subjects ATC Close Calls

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WideScreen
January 30, 2025, 07:54:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816966

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOWI

I think, it's pretty early to call out this to be an ATC issue. Not to say, the whole issue is just built into the system being used in crowded airspaces, with very limited reserves for human mistakes.

Subjects ATC Close Calls

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moosepileit
January 30, 2025, 07:59:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816973

Quote:

Originally Posted by Return_2_Stand

Having followed many of the near misses in the US in recent years, I find US ATC procedures scary. I always thought it was just a matter of time.

Crossing runway finals at 200' at a distance that puts you wthin reach of the circling jet- tempting fate. TCAS in TA only, not RA by height, No ADSB In or Out improvement in this regime.

Final hole, see and avoid- target invisibe, sighted AAL3130 on Rwy1 straight in, not enough dissonance in all that to realize you cannot be following that next plane...

Subjects ADSB (All) ADSB In ATC Close Calls See and Avoid TCAS (All)

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fdr
January 30, 2025, 08:02:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816975

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denflnt

The CRJ was in the 60's 9 o clock, and above the horizon relative to the 60. NVG if in use reduces peripheral vision, the crewman would usually locate on the RHS to support the command pilot.

Subjects ATC CRJ Night Vision Goggles (NVG)

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cbradio
January 30, 2025, 08:50:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gne

The first lesson for surveillance controllers (and daughters learning to drive in roundabout country) - if the relative bearing is not changing - DO SOMETHING!!!

Gne

I "think" the ATC did. "Traffic sighted?" - "Pass behind."

Subjects ATC Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Relative Bearing

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Alpine Flyer
January 30, 2025, 09:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817027

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chock Puller

Helicopter Low Level Routes are standardized through out the DC area.

Military Operations are 24/7/365 due to National Security issues.

https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3851p....,0.268,0.125,0

According to the procedure map Route 4 (which seems to be the one they were closest to) is supposed to be flown at or below 200ft north of Wilson Bridge. The Radar plots that surfaced so far show the helicopter above 300ft. Even if they misset their altimeter they probably have a radar altimeter and a 75% difference in height should be apparent to a crew familiar with low-level flying.

I have never flown there but if there's regular helicopter traffic 150ft below an ILS or circling approach airline crews familiar with the airport might tend to disregard TCAS proximate traffic, etc. as normal backdrop chatter.

Even when flying behind similar aircraft on an ILS in daylight and good visibility it takes quite some time to see that preceding traffic is slowing down as it only starts to "grow" at an alarming rate when quite close. I have witnessed that twice, once caused by self and another time caused by mismatched speed instructions from ATC. I have resolved to never accept visual separation to preceding traffic at night and while the European aversion to visual approaches might be excessive, high density night ops based on visual separation don't seem to be a good idea even without that crash.

Subjects ATC Circle to Land (Deviate to RWY 33) Radar Route 4 Separation (ALL) TCAS (All) Visual Separation

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