January 30, 2025, 15:45:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817340
When I was working as a CFI out of VKK, literally right outside the DCA Class B, we did training flights at DCA. It was not unusual, how were the students supposed to learn to deal with it if we never went there? One lesson was the "Big 3", going to DCA, IAD, BWI, and back home. ATC was happy enough, they surely didn't want n00bs blundering around there on their own with a fresh license and no clue.
Subjects
ATC
DCA
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January 30, 2025, 15:51:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817349
Just listened to the audio. The tower controller seems to have issued some sort of a 'semi-conditional' clearance to the helicopter for which there was no response from the pilot..... So what clearance were they following? The controller did not even establish that the helo pilot had the traffic visual before allowing him to cross the 33 approach. R/T discipline in the USA is normally poor but this was pitiful and I suspect will prove to be a primary factor.
BTW.... I have used NVGs. How the hell can you operate in downtown Washington, with so much that is either lit... or floodlit? The NVG image will be flared out every time you turn your head towards a light.
BTW.... I have used NVGs. How the hell can you operate in downtown Washington, with so much that is either lit... or floodlit? The NVG image will be flared out every time you turn your head towards a light.
Subjects
ATC
Night Vision Goggles (NVG)
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January 30, 2025, 16:22:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817371
Because presumably military helicopters are sometimes going to do what they need to do and may not be able to check in with ATC.
Providing a conflict-free path for them to do that is the most consistent solution.
However the ultimate issue is traffic density, and the control workarounds (that have been discussed at great length upthread) that the US has normalised to shoehorn huge movement numbers into tiny spaces.
This is probably one of those situations where there should be a military/very limited commercial use airport in the current location and the 'real' airport should be hanging off the end of a high-speed rail line about 50 miles away q.v. Hong Kong.
Providing a conflict-free path for them to do that is the most consistent solution.
However the ultimate issue is traffic density, and the control workarounds (that have been discussed at great length upthread) that the US has normalised to shoehorn huge movement numbers into tiny spaces.
This is probably one of those situations where there should be a military/very limited commercial use airport in the current location and the 'real' airport should be hanging off the end of a high-speed rail line about 50 miles away q.v. Hong Kong.
Subjects
ATC
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January 30, 2025, 16:36:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817389
Imagine being that ATC right now. As if yesterday wasn't horrific enough, the President of the USA is now on TV implying that the accident was directly your fault, and that you are a mentally-handicapped diversity hire.
Subjects
ATC
President Donald Trump
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January 30, 2025, 17:22:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817431
Condolences to the families of the victims - the lives of many changed forever in an instant.
In my opinion, there are way too many issues that contributed to this horrific incident.
An outdated airport that exists primarily for the benefit of the governing class. Seriously, take a few minutes to look at the approach plates - a circle to land approach to rwy 33, 5,200 ft, at night - really??
A video I watched this morning described the government priority parking spaces, special hotline to the airlines to hold planes for last minute departing bureaucrats. As noted above, for several years the destinations from KDCA were tightly controlled to limit the number of operations, yet this has been compromised by bureaucrats utilizing special privileges to lobby airlines to obtain direct flights to their home cities. After all, it\x92s a far longer drive to KIAD.
Apparently there was some talk years ago to utilize KADW, which is also close to the center of government as a replacement to KDCA, but the neighborhood didn\x92t want the noise.
I think the fact the helo was communicating with the KDCA tower on UHF, (SOP in that area) complicates the SA of all involved. Use of the NVG in the helo with a crew of 3 restricted the SA of the crew. An additional crew member on the helo may have helped.
As mentioned, USA ATC hasn\x92t been up to the usual standards but have some empathy for these folks as staffing levels have significantly degraded and they are being asked to do more with less and I think all aircrew operating in the US are aware of this.
Trumps press conference never should have involved the political aspect, it really degrades the message to the victims families. This is an opportunity to fix the problems in the system, invest money in upgrading staffing levels and equipment and changing poor practices that have been accepted into the norm.
In my opinion, there are way too many issues that contributed to this horrific incident.
An outdated airport that exists primarily for the benefit of the governing class. Seriously, take a few minutes to look at the approach plates - a circle to land approach to rwy 33, 5,200 ft, at night - really??
A video I watched this morning described the government priority parking spaces, special hotline to the airlines to hold planes for last minute departing bureaucrats. As noted above, for several years the destinations from KDCA were tightly controlled to limit the number of operations, yet this has been compromised by bureaucrats utilizing special privileges to lobby airlines to obtain direct flights to their home cities. After all, it\x92s a far longer drive to KIAD.
Apparently there was some talk years ago to utilize KADW, which is also close to the center of government as a replacement to KDCA, but the neighborhood didn\x92t want the noise.
I think the fact the helo was communicating with the KDCA tower on UHF, (SOP in that area) complicates the SA of all involved. Use of the NVG in the helo with a crew of 3 restricted the SA of the crew. An additional crew member on the helo may have helped.
As mentioned, USA ATC hasn\x92t been up to the usual standards but have some empathy for these folks as staffing levels have significantly degraded and they are being asked to do more with less and I think all aircrew operating in the US are aware of this.
Trumps press conference never should have involved the political aspect, it really degrades the message to the victims families. This is an opportunity to fix the problems in the system, invest money in upgrading staffing levels and equipment and changing poor practices that have been accepted into the norm.
Subjects
ATC
Circle to Land (Deviate to RWY 33)
KDCA
Night Vision Goggles (NVG)
Situational Awareness
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January 30, 2025, 17:49:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817462
Many have made the point that this accident breaks the 16 year absence of a fatal accident involving a US airliner. ( Never mind the single fatality of the Southwest uncontained engine failure.) But we need to remember that much of that time streak was due to luck. In the past two years, we have discussed several runway incursion incidents where the aircraft were 4 seconds or LESS from occupying the same space at the same time... Austin Texas between Fedex and Southwest, Boston between JetBlue and a biz jet, and Delta/American at JFK.
Subjects
ATC
Close Calls
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January 30, 2025, 17:54:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817466
Hanging the ATCO on duty will not bring back the dead, and was not the cause of the problem. Having a civil aircraft flight path immediately overhead a LL RW VFR transit lane that guarantees that there is a loss of separation standards is what set this off, and that has been the case for decades. The crews, pax, ATC officers and families just happened to be the ones that got caught out by the insanity that permitted this track and procedure to exist.
Will Mr T go after the ATC guy? probably, the ATC officer doesn't own a kingdom, a corporation, in fact he is highly unlikely to have a DUI, and certainly won't be a convicted felon. So, I would rate the ATC guy as the convenient fall guy for the US Govt, the FAA who should not have permitted the operation of civil aircraft proximate to military LL traffic, and the US DOD, who will have signed off on the practice of disregarding minimum separation per \xa791.111. As far as right of way, the CRJ was landing, \xa791.113(g) applies, notwithstanding 91.113(d). The CRJ had every reasonable expectation of not sharing a cockpit on short finals to a short runway with crossing helo traffic.
- IDTEK is 1.4nm from touchdown, 490' PA
- the east bank of the river is half way to the runway, ~0.7nm, -> 245'+40' = 285'PA
- the collision occurred around mid river, ~0.3-0.4nm from T/D, or 125+40=165'
What is particularly annoying is that the generals and other command staff, and Secretaries of Transport, Defence etc are quite happy to cashier the F-18 pilots who do a slow flypast of an arena, or the T-38 instructors who do the same over some other game, and yet, what is the chance that any general takes responsibility for their part in this sorry state of affairs. responsibility like other stuff, only goes downwards,
Its pretty easy for the guy in charge to defame the ATCO.
Glass houses.
Subjects
ATC
ATCO
CRJ
FAA
President Donald Trump
Separation (ALL)
VFR
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January 30, 2025, 17:59:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817469
Subjects
ATC
CRJ
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January 30, 2025, 18:07:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817485
The longer video shows that the "late warning" was the SECOND time that ATC asked the helicopter pilot to confirm that he was visual with the CRJ, and that he was avoiding it. The ATC followed the established procedure of allowing the heli to visually separate itself from the arriving aircraft, which the heli had specifically requested from ATC. You might argue that the procedure isn't safe, and I would agree... but individual ATCs are expected to follow the procedures they're given.
Subjects
ATC
CRJ
Separation (ALL)
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January 30, 2025, 18:09:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817487
.Night VFR / visual avoidance is difficult - above a lighted city even more difficult
it is easy to become disorientated at night particularly when making turns.
.the circling approach to r/w 33 seems demanding and pitot lookout would be focused on the runway not peripheral traffic - turns prevent all round lookout protection .
. The helo pilots could have sighted other traffic or moving lights on the ground - things happen very fast.
as stated earlier this was an accident waiting to happen - allowing VFR traffic to pass that close to traffic on short finals is crazy
with reliable engines,modern glass cockpits and brilliant nav aids flying has become a whole lot safer - mid air collisions in VFR / VMC remain high risk especially at low level if TCAS is unreliable and when weather is marginal.
the human eyeball has it\x92s limitations
PS are ATC urgent instructions ever misunderstood or not received because of comm faffs or language / regional accent misunderstandings ?
it is easy to become disorientated at night particularly when making turns.
.the circling approach to r/w 33 seems demanding and pitot lookout would be focused on the runway not peripheral traffic - turns prevent all round lookout protection .
. The helo pilots could have sighted other traffic or moving lights on the ground - things happen very fast.
as stated earlier this was an accident waiting to happen - allowing VFR traffic to pass that close to traffic on short finals is crazy
with reliable engines,modern glass cockpits and brilliant nav aids flying has become a whole lot safer - mid air collisions in VFR / VMC remain high risk especially at low level if TCAS is unreliable and when weather is marginal.
the human eyeball has it\x92s limitations
PS are ATC urgent instructions ever misunderstood or not received because of comm faffs or language / regional accent misunderstandings ?
Subjects
ATC
Accident Waiting to Happen
Circle to Land (Deviate to RWY 33)
TCAS (All)
VFR
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January 30, 2025, 18:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817490
Why did the controller not wave off the helicopter immediately, vs merely inquiring about them having a visual on the approaching aircraft? Looking at the flight track, where it's clear the AA flight must turn left to 33 in the path of the approaching helicopter, why did ATC not take immediate action to avoid this collision course by either waving AA of the approach if that would have been faster, or telling the helicopter to stop immediately (or refusing clearance on that path to the helicopter in the first place)?
Subjects
ATC
Night Vision Goggles (NVG)
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January 30, 2025, 18:16:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817498
Of all the places I fly worldwide, the workload is always highest during App and Ldg at a major US airport. Yes it\x92s very busy airspace and yes you have to have your wits about you. But this sort of awful accident has been coming and saying \x93no one is to blame and it\x92s bad luck\x94 just means it will happen again. Attitudes towards the management of airspace and ATC in the States needs to change.
Subjects
ATC
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January 30, 2025, 18:28:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817512
Many years ago the Chinese had big brand new airports , ATC spoke good English , when stressed just raised their voice but speed was same . Good ground aids , wide runways and the military gave some airspace for certain routes to be established but they had issue with increasing the usage and looked around for help . They paid some Americans to come over and they improved things and now it\x92s a very good system .
The American system is confronting , aggressive to pilots that don\x92t do night separation , ATC are passive aggressive then quick to accuse . It\x92s running at %120 and resources are being reduced . For info I already know I can\x92t see airport , preceding traffic , a bridge or a taxiway identifier that\x92s hidden or behind me when I operate there next week .
The American system is confronting , aggressive to pilots that don\x92t do night separation , ATC are passive aggressive then quick to accuse . It\x92s running at %120 and resources are being reduced . For info I already know I can\x92t see airport , preceding traffic , a bridge or a taxiway identifier that\x92s hidden or behind me when I operate there next week .
Subjects
ATC
Separation (ALL)
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January 30, 2025, 19:20:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817562
ATC in the tower would be unable to visually verify separation at that distance.
The earlier radar replay, if confirmed real, raises the question of whether it was monitored by anybody able to warn in time
The earlier radar replay, if confirmed real, raises the question of whether it was monitored by anybody able to warn in time
Subjects
ATC
Radar
Separation (ALL)
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January 30, 2025, 19:33:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817579
Yes ATC could have done better, and heli pilots could have done better. But they were in high pressure time critical nighttime environment with seconds to make decisions.
The people who design the charts and procedures have days and weeks to think things through, in a nice safe office, on the ground, going 0kts with good lighting.
Unless I'm missing something, it would seem that route 4 design is the main culprit here.
The people who design the charts and procedures have days and weeks to think things through, in a nice safe office, on the ground, going 0kts with good lighting.
Unless I'm missing something, it would seem that route 4 design is the main culprit here.
Subjects
ATC
Route 4
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January 30, 2025, 19:44:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817589
There was a line of traffic on approach to 01. The helicopter's track did not conflict with the extended line of 01. The problem starts with the CRJ accepting 33, breaking right and positioning for a left turn onto final. I don't think (despite ATC's info) that the chopper crew were quite fully aware of this and were in fact looking at traffic along the extended line of 01. The relatively late runway change, common as it is at DCA, was a major contributor to this accident in terms of the chopper pilots' awareness. Just thinking out loud and speculating like many others on here.
Subjects
ATC
CRJ
DCA
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January 30, 2025, 19:57:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817601
FAA prelim report: understaffed ATC
I don't see anyone has posted this yet, per NYT live news page.
"Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.
The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.
This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.
The shortage — caused by years of employee turnover and tight budgets, among other factors — has forced many controllers to work up to six days a week and 10 hours a day."
"Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.
The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.
This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and can complicate the job. One reason is that the controllers can use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.
The shortage — caused by years of employee turnover and tight budgets, among other factors — has forced many controllers to work up to six days a week and 10 hours a day."
Subjects
ATC
FAA
New York Times
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January 30, 2025, 20:08:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817608
Yes ATC could have done better, and heli pilots could have done better. But they were in high pressure time critical nighttime environment with seconds to make decisions.
The people who design the charts and procedures have days and weeks to think things through, in a nice safe office, on the ground, going 0kts with good lighting.
Unless I'm missing something, it would seem that route 4 design is the main culprit here .
The people who design the charts and procedures have days and weeks to think things through, in a nice safe office, on the ground, going 0kts with good lighting.
Unless I'm missing something, it would seem that route 4 design is the main culprit here .
Subjects
ATC
Probable Cause
Route 4
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January 30, 2025, 20:09:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817610
I have flown in and out of DCA often and listening to the ATC recording , I am only a humble PAX but I think most people would find it alarming the amount of instructions that have to be issued to keep traffic flowing at DCA, Flying an approach to Rwy 1 and then skipping across to 33 so they can run a kind of pseudo parallel operation all mixed with VFR traffic in darkness , You can hear the strain/stress in the controllers voice as he tries to issue instructions to traffic that doesnt automatically deconflict . And thats without several seconds of the two incident aircraft head on to each other with 200 ft separation at less than 400 ft agl !!! Just tragic
Subjects
ATC
DCA
Separation (ALL)
VFR
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January 30, 2025, 20:22:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817621
This is the really puzzling part. Looking at the expected altitude of an approaching Airliner with a 3\xb0 G/S at the expected crossing point it would be at 250 ft +/-50 That leaves a mere 0-100ft to the helicopter route (and that is assuming the Helo path along the East side of the Potomac, if it deviates somewhat to the West the default altitude of the Airliner will drop below 200ft at the crossing). This is simply insane. You could count the number of bolts in the rotor head if everything goes according to plan. If not -well we saw that last night. How can this be allowed? What was the plan? Did ATC assume the Helo would duck under? At night over water? And visual separation in case of a circle to land -not a straight in- at night? Courageous. Note to self: Never take a flight into DCA.
Subjects
ATC
Circle to Land (Deviate to RWY 33)
DCA
Separation (ALL)
Visual Separation
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