Blackhawk (H-60) Page: 1 of 9

Sam W
January 30, 2025, 02:51:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816787

CRJ and Blackhawk.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CRJ

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MichaelKPIT
January 30, 2025, 02:57:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816793

CNN reading FAA statement saying it collided with a Blackhawk helicopter. Military helicopter.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN FAA

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Oro-o
January 30, 2025, 02:58:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816794

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lake1952

White House press secretary is reporting a regional jet which collided with a military helicopter.

Seeing both. If this is correct, \x93PAT25\x94 is typically a US Army VIP transport (\x93Priority Air Travel\x94), and would be a Blackhawk.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60)

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Pilot DAR
January 30, 2025, 03:30:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816817

CNN is saying 60 pax plus 4 crew on the AA CRJ jet, Blackhawk crew not stated yet....

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN CRJ

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donpizmeov
January 30, 2025, 03:55:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816833

Collision near Washington Reagan

Looks like a PSA RJ and a Blackhawk helicopter have collided close to the airport.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60)

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pattern_is_full
January 30, 2025, 04:01:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816837

Newest CNN report quotes Army as saying 3 crew on the Blackhawk, no passengers.

Suggestion (unconfirmed) of some wreckage (type/aircraft undefined) found on land, not river. But the Potomac is not all that wide at that point. Possible for an aircraft (either type) spiralling down, to hit the shore.

Potomac water temperature reported as 42\xb0F/5\xb0C. Open to revision, of course.

Nothing reported so far that directly contradicts any of the previous posts.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN

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Anti Skid On
January 30, 2025, 04:15:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816851

On Flightradar the chopper activity is right at that spot; given both were at about 350ft, they both must be in the river. Divers are now in the water.

Doesn't sound great for those on board. Begs the question why was the Blackhawk passing through the approach to 33?

Last edited by T28B; 30th January 2025 at 05:04 . Reason: get the model right

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60)

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MLHeliwrench
January 30, 2025, 04:42:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816869

CNN just reported that law enforcement has confirmed fatalities have been recovered, and that no survivors have been found yet. The plane is in multiple pieces in the river and the Blackhawk nearby. (This is about 3 hours post incident)

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN

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visibility3miles
January 30, 2025, 05:33:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816897

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelKPIT

Just breaking on CNN. Flight from ICT-DCA. Looking like collision with helicopter on final\x85

From the Wall Street Journal:

Quote:

Rescue crews are searching for the Black Hawk and its three crew members in the Potomac River, near the commercial aircraft crash site, defense officials said.

The Black Hawk took off from Fort Belvoir, Va., defense officials said, and was part 12th Aviation Battalion. The battalion is responsible for transporting VIP passengers, usually top Pentagon leaders. There were three crew members on board, the officials said, but none were VIPs.

The three troops on board the Black Hawk were conducting a training flight, according to a spokeswoman Joint Task Force-National Capitol Region.

\x93We can confirm that the aircraft involved in tonight\x92s incident was an Army UH-60 helicopter from Bravo Company, 12th Aviation Battalion, out of Davison Army Airfield, Fort Belvoir during a training flight. We are working with local officials and will provide additional information once it becomes available,\x94 the spokeswoman said.

Usually, such flights are manned by a pilot, instructor pilot and crew chief.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN Wall Street Journal

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MPN11
January 30, 2025, 10:04:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817076

As a regular tourist to Alexandria, I have often watched the DCA traffic and the helos transiting along the Potomac shoreline north of the Wilson Bridge on Route 4. In this tragic instance, the Blackhawk [PAT25} not only seems to be higher than the published procedure but also further west [ie over the river]. And according to that radar plot [post 80] , in the last moments it seems to rurn right [ie further west] exacerbating the situation.

MPN11, former Mil ATCO

Subjects ATCO Blackhawk (H-60) DCA PAT25 Radar Route 4

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Avv
January 30, 2025, 10:18:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817091

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjames

If the Heli said he would pass behind the aircraft on approach and that aircraft was behind the incident aircraft, then it makes even less sense.

Unlikely that they mistook the CRJ, It's landing lights were pointing right at them. More likely they weren't sure where they were in relation to the plane and where it was going. From the radar plot they are head on, then the CRJ turns final to 33 and the Blackhawk turns right to avoid them. Too high and in the wrong spot.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CRJ Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Radar

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Not_apilots_starfish
January 30, 2025, 11:26:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817137

Hi, I am new, I read this thread because I wanted to know what those that fly thought. I liked how everyone updated the facts as they emerged. Not a Pilot, just a Mum and a former Journalist that is obsessive about information and facts.

I notice (according to Sky) the AA aeroplane was 400 ft when it crashed. That means the helicopter had to increase to 400 ft. How common is that ? At the last point of contact for the Black Hawk, it was far below 400 feet.

Even to a casual observer with no experience, this seems amiss. I know you're all saying that it was bound to happen and that the air traffic controller is too vague but that doesn't explain the sudden increase in elevation of the black hawk ?

Subjects ATC Blackhawk (H-60)

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C2H5OH
January 30, 2025, 12:03:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817168

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not_apilots_starfish

Even to a casual observer with no experience, this seems amiss. I know you're all saying that it was bound to happen and that the air traffic controller is too vague but that doesn't explain the sudden increase in elevation of the black hawk ?

No, there is nothing amiss. Firstly there is time discretization, i.e. the data point is not from the very moment of the collision but some time before. That means the jet will have descended since that value was transmitted. Secondly there is value discretization, that means, the jet may have been e.g. at 388ft when it transmitted 400ft. And last but not least there are allowable tolerances in the barometric measurement of both aircraft that can add up to increase the perceived difference, i.e. the jet higher, the chopper lower.

Subjects ATC Blackhawk (H-60)

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captains_log
January 30, 2025, 12:37:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817194

Quote:

Originally Posted by WideScreen

Could it be this becomes another case that the regulatory defined airplane exterior (including landing light) lighting (especially for small RJ) is simply insufficient to let it stand out in the airport / city Xmas tree of lighting?

And the chopper crew simply had the next airplane in sequence of landing in sight and not the one they collided with?

RIP

This explanation above to me can be the only logical explanation because nothing else apart from intentional makes sense.

Akin to allowing a car to drive across a motorway/highway should just never be permissible ever. Overpass or underpass only unless emergency.

Some other observations

DCA operates within Class B airspace , requiring explicit ATC clearance for any aircraft, including helicopters, to enter.
Helicopters can operate in controlled airspace, but they must follow a predefined route and altitude assignment.
Military flights, even Black Hawks, must coordinate with ATC unless responding to an emergency.

A Black Hawk could only legally cross a major approach path if:

It was explicitly cleared by ATC , or
It was conducting an authorized emergency or security operation , with ATC aware.

If neither of these happened, this should not have been permissible .
Condolences to all involved, and their families, and the teams that will be involved in the recovery.

Last edited by captains_log; 30th January 2025 at 13:17 .

Subjects ATC Blackhawk (H-60) Route Altitude

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JRBarrett
January 30, 2025, 13:20:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817229

Quote:

Originally Posted by Someone Somewhere

I was talking about visual separation; I should have been clearer.

Might have helped the CRJ see the helicopter (except a military helicopter probably won't be illuminated anyway)

Military aircraft are required to have standard external lighting when operating in civil airspace. In the zoomed video clip of the collision, you can see the helicopter had a strobe light. But with the relative positions, it probably would have been difficult for the CRJ crew to have seen the Blackhawk - especially since they were probably looking forward to concentrate on the runway.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CRJ Separation (ALL) Visual Separation

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toratoratora
January 30, 2025, 13:43:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817252

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upside Down

The Route 4 restrictions are in the Terminal Chart somebody else posted further up the thread: \x93Rt4: Fort Washington over Potomac River to Wilson Bridge. Then via East bank of Potomac River to Anacostia River. Intercept Route 1 at Anacostia River. Altitudes: At or below 600 feet MSL to Wilson Bridge. Begin descent from 600 feet MSL to arrive at 300 feet MSL over Wilson Bridge. Then at or below 200 feet MSL North of Wilson Bridge.\x94

The chart itself shows the <not above 200 MSL> symbol for the segment where the collision took place. That combined with the \x93via East bank\x85\x94 provides (some) procedural separation with traffic on final.. not much but some if the Route 4 traffic follows the east bank\x85 and stays below 200\x92\x85.

That is how it looks to me.
Southbound, not above 200 feet to Goose Island, then not above 300 before the Wilson Bridge.
Screenshot elsewhere suggests the Blackhawk was initially at 200, then climbed early to 300, and then to 350\x85.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) Route 4 Separation (ALL)

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10 DME ARC
January 30, 2025, 14:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817271

Might have missed it but the CRJ wasn't given any traffic on the Blackhawk?? Plus the Blackhawk was only asked if he had the CRJ insight very late on and no updated traffic information given! The ATCO was obviously concerned but that concern should have included traffic information as directly ahead of the Blackhawk was two CRJ one much further out which was no factor!!
Plus does the Blackhawk have a TCAS screen?? That would have been invaluable to pick out the traffic!

Subjects ATCO Blackhawk (H-60) CRJ TCAS (All)

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MLHeliwrench
January 30, 2025, 14:36:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817284

Blackhawk comms

Some of the ATC recordings and YouTube videos don\x92t show the Blackhawk responding to ATC instructions. The Blackhawk does acknowledge more than once they have the traffic in sight - just on a different frequency, likly UHF which commercial planes do not use generally.

It\x92s easy to look now and be like - who would allow a helicopter highway 300 feet below a final approach path????

but this has been completely routine in that area for years and years. Helicopter Pilots who have flown the route have felt wake turbulence when scooting under/behind.

also - the use of 33, especially by CRJ size jets is completely normal and should of been expected by any helicopter crew as a possible traffic issue. In the VAS channel ATC video linked above. There are other jets using 33.

Subjects ATC Blackhawk (H-60) CRJ Traffic in Sight

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Alpine Flyer
January 30, 2025, 16:34:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817383

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10 DME ARC

Might have missed it but the CRJ wasn't given any traffic on the Blackhawk??

As stated already, what are they supposed to do with that information? There\x91s a pretty tight envelope you have to follow to get that CRJ down to the runway without running afoul of external (noise) or company (stabilized approach) rules. There\x91s not much time to look out towards two o\x91clock for a darkish green or camo helo that is one stationary speck of light against the backdrop of an urban agglomeration. Even if you see it it will need to be quite close before you realize it will hit you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Climb150

It's easy Do you see the traffic? Yea or no. If there is an ounce of uncertainty you say no. This guy either thought he did or he didn't see it but said he did.

As it\x92s unlikely that the helo crew flew with a death wish it is most likely that they thought they saw it. As stated numerous times the system cannot be allowed to be based on pilots seeing other planes at night, at least not in airspace as busy as that.

While we don\x92t operate like that in Europe we shouldn\x92t be too sanctimonious as it is root less in a superior sense for safety than a dearth of GA/military VIP traffic. Most European leaders don\x92t have themselves shuttled to/from downtown in a helo, senior officials even less so. AFAIK even the late queen took a car to the airport to be seen and believed.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CRJ

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canigida
January 30, 2025, 17:20:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817430

errr..

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattern_is_full

That is partly how it works. Dulles-IAD and Baltimore-Washington-BWI serve as the "Hanging off the end...about 50 miles away" airports for Washington. D.C.

But the folks who vote to fund the FAA's budget (Congress) find it - convenient - to also have a civilian passenger airport just 2 miles away. For their jaunts back to their home states to "massage" the voters.

So the FAA does their bidding. And so do the airlines.

One of the Senators from Kansas at the original "midnight press conference" after the accident, with no apparent irony, said that he had pressured American Airlines' CEO for this direct and specific Wichita-to-DCA non-stop route. He happens to be a GOP Senator. But two of the "news interviewees" regarding the collision - Congressman Eric Swalwell (D-Calif) and perennial-FAA-thorn-in-the-side Mary Schiavo - both said they had also arrived at DCA shortly before the accident.

So it goes.

good lord, from your pontification, you'd think that this was an exec airport for the ruling class. Tens of millions of people use it every year. Including me. It's revenues actually subside KIAD, and is the preferred airport for many, including me. I would prefer it remain open. "buy what about the children"... etc. etc. well, realistically you have a better chance of getting abducted by aliens than dying at KDCA. No, I am not in cahoots with the government elite
I have flown into KDCA , and traversed the inner FRZ Potomac TRACON airspace more than a thousand hours. It's an intense place (go listen to liveATC tower freq , every day it's "AA123, traffic on 36 inch final, cleared to takeoff rwy 1, NO DELAY, EXPEDITE!", but its not some cowboy wild west. Everybody keeps it together, even the GA folks are sharp. When I've flown out of Ft. Meade and you stay gotta keep your head under the B shelf because there's SWA fights a couple of hundred feet above. You can literally see SW pax in their window seat. On departing KCGS, I've been maybe 20 seconds delayed switching from CTAF to Potomac Approach checkin, and they told me they were panicking and just about to pick up The Red Phone to send me oblivion.
From friends, I know of three separate DC area military units doing fixed wing VIP transports, and I guess the Army also does helo VIP. They have done this for decades, there's an enormous amount of flights. It all seems to work well enough.
And for folks saying "they shouldn't have been doing training", well I can assure you it was not an initial training event. I've flown in Marathon KS, next to the Army blackhawk flight school, and that and their other two schools is where you go to train - wide open spaces. I know someone who was Marine 1 and they do sim training to the WH s. lawn, and then they obviously do a real checkout (without the POTUS) at the real thing.

Everytime there's a crash, this place is flooded with knee jerked, all ill considered. I bike past the KDCA all the time and I'm pretty sure there's no Berm of Satan, but I'm sure the mob will latch on to some new 'smoking gun'

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) DCA FAA KDCA President Donald Trump

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