CNN Page: 1 of 2

MichaelKPIT
January 30, 2025, 02:43:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816782

AA5342 Down DCA

Just breaking on CNN. Flight from ICT-DCA. Looking like collision with helicopter on final\x85

Subjects CNN

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Pilot DAR
January 30, 2025, 02:55:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816792

DC Police say it's not: (via CNN)

Quote:

DC Police said it was not an Metropolitan Police Department helicopter involved in this incident.

“MPD’s helicopter is NOT involved in this incident and is currently assisting in the multi-agency response,” MPD said.

Subjects CNN

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MichaelKPIT
January 30, 2025, 02:57:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816793

CNN reading FAA statement saying it collided with a Blackhawk helicopter. Military helicopter.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN FAA

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Pilot DAR
January 30, 2025, 03:30:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816817

CNN is saying 60 pax plus 4 crew on the AA CRJ jet, Blackhawk crew not stated yet....

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN CRJ

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MichaelKPIT
January 30, 2025, 04:01:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816836

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Meatloaf

Just a quick screen cap from the adsbexchange.com site at the time of the collision. I don't know if it's meaningful but the reported altitudes on the site shows a 200' difference in altitude between the aircraft.

I don\x92t know how accurate this is but the CNN analyst is saying that horizontally they\x92d have been ok. The helicopter path is beneath the published approach and should not have been a problem, but it looks like the helicopter was too high\x85

Subjects CNN

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pattern_is_full
January 30, 2025, 04:01:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816837

Newest CNN report quotes Army as saying 3 crew on the Blackhawk, no passengers.

Suggestion (unconfirmed) of some wreckage (type/aircraft undefined) found on land, not river. But the Potomac is not all that wide at that point. Possible for an aircraft (either type) spiralling down, to hit the shore.

Potomac water temperature reported as 42\xb0F/5\xb0C. Open to revision, of course.

Nothing reported so far that directly contradicts any of the previous posts.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN

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WillowRun 6-3
January 30, 2025, 04:31:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816859

CNN reporting generally ATC transmission in which another flight stated that it had witnessed the collision. Will be valuable information for investigation.

Dumbfounded by midair in this airspace.

Subjects ATC CNN

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MichaelKPIT
January 30, 2025, 04:32:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816861

BBC reporting that the CRJ has split in two and is in the Potomac. CNN saying that part of it is fully submerged & divers are on scene.

Subjects CNN CRJ

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island_airphoto
January 30, 2025, 04:40:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816867

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3

CNN reporting generally ATC transmission in which another flight stated that it had witnessed the collision. Will be valuable information for investigation.

Dumbfounded by midair in this airspace.

I used to fly out of KVKX just barely outside the Bravo and was over at KDCA a lot. Everything that moves is tracked there, it is beyond belief that this happened where it did. Just FYI and not sure if this is a factor, but if you fly right over a helicopter you get sucked down.

Subjects ATC CNN KDCA

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MLHeliwrench
January 30, 2025, 04:42:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816869

CNN just reported that law enforcement has confirmed fatalities have been recovered, and that no survivors have been found yet. The plane is in multiple pieces in the river and the Blackhawk nearby. (This is about 3 hours post incident)

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN

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kap'n krunch
January 30, 2025, 04:43:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816871

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelKPIT

BBC reporting that the CRJ has split in two and is in the Potomac. CNN saying that part of it is fully submerged & divers are on scene.

Video appears to show fuselage partially submerged off the end of the runway 33 approach light pier.

Subjects CNN CRJ

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visibility3miles
January 30, 2025, 05:33:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816897

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelKPIT

Just breaking on CNN. Flight from ICT-DCA. Looking like collision with helicopter on final\x85

From the Wall Street Journal:

Quote:

Rescue crews are searching for the Black Hawk and its three crew members in the Potomac River, near the commercial aircraft crash site, defense officials said.

The Black Hawk took off from Fort Belvoir, Va., defense officials said, and was part 12th Aviation Battalion. The battalion is responsible for transporting VIP passengers, usually top Pentagon leaders. There were three crew members on board, the officials said, but none were VIPs.

The three troops on board the Black Hawk were conducting a training flight, according to a spokeswoman Joint Task Force-National Capitol Region.

\x93We can confirm that the aircraft involved in tonight\x92s incident was an Army UH-60 helicopter from Bravo Company, 12th Aviation Battalion, out of Davison Army Airfield, Fort Belvoir during a training flight. We are working with local officials and will provide additional information once it becomes available,\x94 the spokeswoman said.

Usually, such flights are manned by a pilot, instructor pilot and crew chief.

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN Wall Street Journal

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Upside Down
January 30, 2025, 11:29:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817139

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelKPIT

The Route 4 restrictions are in the Terminal Chart somebody else posted further up the thread: \x93Rt4: Fort Washington over Potomac River to Wilson Bridge. Then via East bank of Potomac River to Anacostia River. Intercept Route 1 at Anacostia River. Altitudes: At or below 600 feet MSL to Wilson Bridge. Begin descent from 600 feet MSL to arrive at 300 feet MSL over Wilson Bridge. Then at or below 200 feet MSL North of Wilson Bridge.\x94

The chart itself shows the <not above 200 MSL> symbol for the segment where the collision took place. That combined with the \x93via East bank\x85\x94 provides (some) procedural separation with traffic on final.. not much but some if the Route 4 traffic follows the east bank\x85 and stays below 200\x92\x85.

Subjects CNN Route 4 Separation (ALL)

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clearedtocross
January 31, 2025, 10:38:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818090

According to CNN, the crash was waiting to happen.
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/01/30/u...nvs/index.html

Subjects CNN

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MichaelKPIT
January 31, 2025, 12:14:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818158

CNN are broadcasting a new video of the accident from a different viewpoint. Apologies for linking to the whole (constantly updating) page - it’s not like YouTube where you can grab just the video: https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/pla...003b6mql4oglfn

Subjects CNN

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treadigraph
January 31, 2025, 12:33:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818165

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelKPIT

CNN are broadcasting a new video of the accident from a different viewpoint. Apologies for linking to the whole (constantly updating) page - it\x92s not like YouTube where you can grab just the video: https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/pla...003b6mql4oglfn

YouTube version: the CRJ crew appear to start banking left a moment before the collision...

Subjects CNN CRJ

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Luc Lion
January 31, 2025, 13:18:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818194

Rarife , the planned separation is more like 0-100 ft than 100-200 ft.
When overflying the eastern side of the Potomac, the planes aligned with RW33 are between 220 and 270 ft MSL
Basically, route RT4 is designed to place the helicopters at the same height as planes approaching to land on RW33.
I believe that this corridor altitude was rather planned to avoid conflicts with RW01 approaches.
And, in my view, this corridor is incompatible with approaches to RW33.

By the way, the situation with approach to RW19 is marginally better: approaching planes are overflying the helicopter corridor RT1 up to the Franklin Roosevelt memorial where their paths diverge and, at that point, the planes are supposed to be at 420 ft and the helicopters at or below 200 ft.
The CNN article mentions several near-misses that happened with approaches to RW19.

I think that the RT1 between Memorial Bridge and Hains Point and the RT4 between Haines Point and Wilson Bridge should be operated by ATC as roads crossing 2 bascule bridges and the bridges open to let respectively approaches RW19 and approaches RW33 pass through.

Last edited by Luc Lion; 31st January 2025 at 13:34 .

Subjects ATC CNN Separation (ALL)

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Rarife
January 31, 2025, 13:32:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818203

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luc Lion

Yea, I wanted to be generous with that separation.
So even if the helicopter stays in its route 4, bellow 200 ft MSL, they just can't fly directly bellow the approaching aircraft.

Subjects CNN Route 4 Separation (ALL)

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Luc Lion
January 31, 2025, 14:24:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818249

Quote:

Originally Posted by slfool

I've heard conflicting reports about whether the collision was head on, or the helicopter hit the RHS, do we know which it was? I'm asking because there's also been comments about the difficulty of picking out lights from an aircraft that's approaching head on against a background of city lights.

From the available videos, (particularly the CNN ones) the difference in heading looks close to 90\xb0. Maybe 110\xb0.

Subjects CNN

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slfool
January 31, 2025, 14:32:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luc Lion

From the available videos, (particularly the CNN ones) the difference in heading looks close to 90\xb0. Maybe 110\xb0.

That was how it looked to my totally uninformed eyes as well, but I'm completely unqualified to say. If it was a beam collision, I assume that means the "apparently static head on approaching light" factor can be discounted. I also assume that still doesn't mean the helo pilot would have seen the jet, due to the lateral speed / darkness / NVG / cockpit frame issues that others have already mentioned.

Subjects CNN Night Vision Goggles (NVG)

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MichaelKPIT January 30, 2025, 02:43:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816782	AA5342 Down DCA Just breaking on CNN. Flight from ICT-DCA. Looking like collision with helicopter on final\x85 Subjects CNN Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Pilot DAR January 30, 2025, 02:55:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816792	DC Police say it's not: (via CNN) Quote: DC Police said it was not an Metropolitan Police Department helicopter involved in this incident. “MPD’s helicopter is NOT involved in this incident and is currently assisting in the multi-agency response,” MPD said. Subjects CNN Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
MichaelKPIT January 30, 2025, 02:57:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816793	CNN reading FAA statement saying it collided with a Blackhawk helicopter. Military helicopter. Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN FAA Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Pilot DAR January 30, 2025, 03:30:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816817	CNN is saying 60 pax plus 4 crew on the AA CRJ jet, Blackhawk crew not stated yet.... Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN CRJ Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
MichaelKPIT January 30, 2025, 04:01:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816836	Quote: Originally Posted by DC Meatloaf Just a quick screen cap from the adsbexchange.com site at the time of the collision. I don't know if it's meaningful but the reported altitudes on the site shows a 200' difference in altitude between the aircraft. I don\x92t know how accurate this is but the CNN analyst is saying that horizontally they\x92d have been ok. The helicopter path is beneath the published approach and should not have been a problem, but it looks like the helicopter was too high\x85 Subjects CNN Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
pattern_is_full January 30, 2025, 04:01:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816837	Newest CNN report quotes Army as saying 3 crew on the Blackhawk, no passengers. Suggestion (unconfirmed) of some wreckage (type/aircraft undefined) found on land, not river. But the Potomac is not all that wide at that point. Possible for an aircraft (either type) spiralling down, to hit the shore. Potomac water temperature reported as 42\xb0F/5\xb0C. Open to revision, of course. Nothing reported so far that directly contradicts any of the previous posts. Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
WillowRun 6-3 January 30, 2025, 04:31:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816859	CNN reporting generally ATC transmission in which another flight stated that it had witnessed the collision. Will be valuable information for investigation. Dumbfounded by midair in this airspace. Subjects ATC CNN Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
MichaelKPIT January 30, 2025, 04:32:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816861	BBC reporting that the CRJ has split in two and is in the Potomac. CNN saying that part of it is fully submerged & divers are on scene. Subjects CNN CRJ Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
island_airphoto January 30, 2025, 04:40:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816867	Quote: Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3 CNN reporting generally ATC transmission in which another flight stated that it had witnessed the collision. Will be valuable information for investigation. Dumbfounded by midair in this airspace. I used to fly out of KVKX just barely outside the Bravo and was over at KDCA a lot. Everything that moves is tracked there, it is beyond belief that this happened where it did. Just FYI and not sure if this is a factor, but if you fly right over a helicopter you get sucked down. Subjects ATC CNN KDCA Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
MLHeliwrench January 30, 2025, 04:42:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816869	CNN just reported that law enforcement has confirmed fatalities have been recovered, and that no survivors have been found yet. The plane is in multiple pieces in the river and the Blackhawk nearby. (This is about 3 hours post incident) Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 2 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
kap'n krunch January 30, 2025, 04:43:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816871	Quote: Originally Posted by MichaelKPIT BBC reporting that the CRJ has split in two and is in the Potomac. CNN saying that part of it is fully submerged & divers are on scene. Video appears to show fuselage partially submerged off the end of the runway 33 approach light pier. Subjects CNN CRJ Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
visibility3miles January 30, 2025, 05:33:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816897	Quote: Originally Posted by MichaelKPIT Just breaking on CNN. Flight from ICT-DCA. Looking like collision with helicopter on final\x85 From the Wall Street Journal: Quote: Rescue crews are searching for the Black Hawk and its three crew members in the Potomac River, near the commercial aircraft crash site, defense officials said. The Black Hawk took off from Fort Belvoir, Va., defense officials said, and was part 12th Aviation Battalion. The battalion is responsible for transporting VIP passengers, usually top Pentagon leaders. There were three crew members on board, the officials said, but none were VIPs. The three troops on board the Black Hawk were conducting a training flight, according to a spokeswoman Joint Task Force-National Capitol Region. \x93We can confirm that the aircraft involved in tonight\x92s incident was an Army UH-60 helicopter from Bravo Company, 12th Aviation Battalion, out of Davison Army Airfield, Fort Belvoir during a training flight. We are working with local officials and will provide additional information once it becomes available,\x94 the spokeswoman said. Usually, such flights are manned by a pilot, instructor pilot and crew chief. Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) CNN Wall Street Journal Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Upside Down January 30, 2025, 11:29:00 GMT permalink Post: 11817139	Quote: Originally Posted by MichaelKPIT I don\x92t know how accurate this is but the CNN analyst is saying that horizontally they\x92d have been ok. The helicopter path is beneath the published approach and should not have been a problem, but it looks like the helicopter was too high\x85 The Route 4 restrictions are in the Terminal Chart somebody else posted further up the thread: \x93Rt4: Fort Washington over Potomac River to Wilson Bridge. Then via East bank of Potomac River to Anacostia River. Intercept Route 1 at Anacostia River. Altitudes: At or below 600 feet MSL to Wilson Bridge. Begin descent from 600 feet MSL to arrive at 300 feet MSL over Wilson Bridge. Then at or below 200 feet MSL North of Wilson Bridge.\x94 The chart itself shows the <not above 200 MSL> symbol for the segment where the collision took place. That combined with the \x93via East bank\x85\x94 provides (some) procedural separation with traffic on final.. not much but some if the Route 4 traffic follows the east bank\x85 and stays below 200\x92\x85. Subjects CNN Route 4 Separation (ALL) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 2 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
clearedtocross January 31, 2025, 10:38:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818090	According to CNN, the crash was waiting to happen. https://edition.cnn.com/2025/01/30/u...nvs/index.html Subjects CNN Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
MichaelKPIT January 31, 2025, 12:14:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818158	CNN are broadcasting a new video of the accident from a different viewpoint. Apologies for linking to the whole (constantly updating) page - it’s not like YouTube where you can grab just the video: https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/pla...003b6mql4oglfn Subjects CNN Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
treadigraph January 31, 2025, 12:33:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818165	Quote: Originally Posted by MichaelKPIT CNN are broadcasting a new video of the accident from a different viewpoint. Apologies for linking to the whole (constantly updating) page - it\x92s not like YouTube where you can grab just the video: https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/pla...003b6mql4oglfn YouTube version: the CRJ crew appear to start banking left a moment before the collision... You Tube Subjects CNN CRJ Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Luc Lion January 31, 2025, 13:18:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818194	Rarife , the planned separation is more like 0-100 ft than 100-200 ft. When overflying the eastern side of the Potomac, the planes aligned with RW33 are between 220 and 270 ft MSL Basically, route RT4 is designed to place the helicopters at the same height as planes approaching to land on RW33. I believe that this corridor altitude was rather planned to avoid conflicts with RW01 approaches. And, in my view, this corridor is incompatible with approaches to RW33. By the way, the situation with approach to RW19 is marginally better: approaching planes are overflying the helicopter corridor RT1 up to the Franklin Roosevelt memorial where their paths diverge and, at that point, the planes are supposed to be at 420 ft and the helicopters at or below 200 ft. The CNN article mentions several near-misses that happened with approaches to RW19. I think that the RT1 between Memorial Bridge and Hains Point and the RT4 between Haines Point and Wilson Bridge should be operated by ATC as roads crossing 2 bascule bridges and the bridges open to let respectively approaches RW19 and approaches RW33 pass through. Last edited by Luc Lion; 31st January 2025 at 13:34 . Subjects ATC CNN Separation (ALL) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Rarife January 31, 2025, 13:32:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818203	Quote: Originally Posted by Luc Lion Rarife , the planned separation is more like 0-100 ft than 100-200 ft. When overflying the eastern side of the Potomac, the planes aligned with RW33 are between 220 and 270 ft MSL Basically, route RT4 is designed to place the helicopters at the same height as planes approaching to land on RW33. I believe that this corridor altitude was rather planned to avoid conflicts with RW01 approaches. And, in my view, this corridor is incompatible with approaches to RW33. By the way, the situation with approach to RW19 is marginally better: approaching planes are overflying the helicopter corridor RT1 up to the Franklin Roosevelt memorial where their paths diverge and, at that point, the planes are supposed to be at 420 ft and the helicopters at or below 200 ft. The CNN article mentions several near-misses that happened with approaches to RW19. Yea, I wanted to be generous with that separation. So even if the helicopter stays in its route 4, bellow 200 ft MSL, they just can't fly directly bellow the approaching aircraft. Subjects CNN Route 4 Separation (ALL) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Luc Lion January 31, 2025, 14:24:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818249	Quote: Originally Posted by slfool I've heard conflicting reports about whether the collision was head on, or the helicopter hit the RHS, do we know which it was? I'm asking because there's also been comments about the difficulty of picking out lights from an aircraft that's approaching head on against a background of city lights. From the available videos, (particularly the CNN ones) the difference in heading looks close to 90\xb0. Maybe 110\xb0. Subjects CNN Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
slfool January 31, 2025, 14:32:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818255	Quote: Originally Posted by Luc Lion From the available videos, (particularly the CNN ones) the difference in heading looks close to 90\xb0. Maybe 110\xb0. That was how it looked to my totally uninformed eyes as well, but I'm completely unqualified to say. If it was a beam collision, I assume that means the "apparently static head on approaching light" factor can be discounted. I also assume that still doesn't mean the helo pilot would have seen the jet, due to the lateral speed / darkness / NVG / cockpit frame issues that others have already mentioned. Subjects CNN Night Vision Goggles (NVG) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

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