DCA Page: 1 of 17

Oro-o
January 30, 2025, 02:52:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816788

Updated info says it is a DC Police Eurocopter, others say US Army. PSA operating as AA5342, Wichita to DCA.

Collision captured on Kennedy Center web cam, link to X post with it:

Subjects AA5342 DCA

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BFSGrad
January 30, 2025, 04:09:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816846

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattern_is_full

Potomac water temperature reported as 42\xb0F/5\xb0C. Open to revision, of course.

A week ago, a truck ran off the Arlington Memorial Bridge, which is upriver from DCA. That rescue/recovery effort was complicated by river ice. Even if no visible ice at DCA, the Potomac is frigid.

Subjects DCA

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island_airphoto
January 30, 2025, 04:35:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816863

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFSGrad

A week ago, a truck ran off the Arlington Memorial Bridge, which is upriver from DCA. That rescue/recovery effort was complicated by river ice. Even if no visible ice at DCA, the Potomac is frigid.

The AIR might be 42 degrees, last week was very cold, I would be amazed if the river was that warm seeing how much ice was in it.

Subjects DCA

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island_airphoto
January 30, 2025, 04:59:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816879

They were probably in reception range of the ATIS from DCA on their pad, if not they could just set the pad altitude before they took off. If they are counting on their altimeter to be accurate to the foot to miss traffic something is wrong anyway!

Subjects DCA

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Kenny
January 30, 2025, 06:03:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816904

Quote:

Originally Posted by pparkes111

is there consensus as to whether ATC is supposed to account for low level helicopter traffic? It seems like ATC would not be responsible for this since military routes are standardized. Someone else said change to 33 was normal procedure.

Was based in DCA for a couple of years. A late change did happen occasionally but generally you\x92d be given the \x93circle to land 33\x94 instruction, on initial contact with the tower. Helos transiting the airspace north or southbound along the river, always contacted DCA tower. It\x92s been a few years, so they may have changed how they do things but that was the SOP 15 years ago.

Subjects ATC DCA

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Ignition Override
January 30, 2025, 06:11:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816907

My extra prayer, other than for the victims' families, and possibly for a truly despondent ATC controller

, is that No children were on the CRJ.

All of my flights into DCA (1985-2017) --mostly DC-9, MD-88, 717 --were on the profiles over the Potomac River, to land on Rwy 19, or for Rwy 01, flying the ILS or a charted visual while going north over the river.
We Never were required to use "see-and-avoid" to maintain safe separation from helicopters or any fixed-wing aircraft iirc.

Was the ATC controller so Busy watching Other aircraft on his radar that he could not clear the helicopter to fly a southeast (ie 150 *) heading--- to keep it well east of the final approach for Rwy 33, until the CRJ was clearly west of the heli, on final approach?
Or a similar separation?

Last edited by Ignition Override; 30th January 2025 at 06:25 .

Subjects ATC CRJ DCA Radar Separation (ALL)

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LowObservable
January 30, 2025, 09:16:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817030

I live near there. Most days I walk within sight of the Pentagon and DCA. I have full view from my Secret Lair of the helo traffic on the other main route from Fort Belvoir to the Pentagon, northeast along 395.

I suspect that this is either going to be one of those "we have been playing Russian Roulette for decades" investigations, or a normalization-of-deviance/boiled frog issue where a difficult situation has been made worse over time.

Factors in the boiled-frog situation would be more use of 15/33 as RJs have become more prevalent; not well regulated growth in helicopter traffic to the Pentagon; and a lot more lighting in the area.

DCA generally is a complex traffic situation with very regular go-arounds (the standard fly-out path is over my building so I hear them). I saw an RJ missing an approach to 15 just yesterday.

But one thing that I'm thinking now: there is no way in hell that a civilian heliport as busy as the Pentagon would be allowed 1,000 yards from a very busy final approach to an airport.

Last edited by LowObservable; 30th January 2025 at 10:03 .

Subjects DCA

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MPN11
January 30, 2025, 10:04:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817076

As a regular tourist to Alexandria, I have often watched the DCA traffic and the helos transiting along the Potomac shoreline north of the Wilson Bridge on Route 4. In this tragic instance, the Blackhawk [PAT25} not only seems to be higher than the published procedure but also further west [ie over the river]. And according to that radar plot [post 80] , in the last moments it seems to rurn right [ie further west] exacerbating the situation.

MPN11, former Mil ATCO

Subjects ATCO Blackhawk (H-60) DCA PAT25 Radar Route 4

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Flch250
January 30, 2025, 11:24:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817136

Visibility: Was perfect. It is remarkable that this same situation is permitted with (1) mile visibility.
Special VFR (and I bet it is done frequently at DCA).

This is the equivalent of Class G airspace I believe. My goodness.

Subjects DCA VFR

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Sailvi767
January 30, 2025, 11:53:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817160

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowObservable

I used 33 in a 727 quite a bit so it\x92s not a RJ only runway. If I recall we did however have a landing weight limit on that runway.

Subjects DCA

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Tu.114
January 30, 2025, 12:00:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817164

I am rather surprised by the route the helicopter took, this looks like quite a high risk in itself.

Yes, there is noise abatement and all that, but is there a compelling reason beyond that why the heli had to track the river in opposite direction to the flow of arriving airliners? Certainly, it would have been possible for a controller, radar-equipped or not, to hold the heli east of the field and clear him for a midfield crossing on heading 270 or so as an airliner is just touching down on 33 or 01 and the next one is still a few miles out? That would have kept him well out of the approach sector, allowed for a possible go-around of an arriving airliner and also would not interfere with departing traffic.

Surely, someone familiar with DCA can explain...

Subjects ATC DCA

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island_airphoto
January 30, 2025, 13:01:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817216

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

on Juan video, I did not hear ATC passing traffic info on the Helicopter . something we would normally do in Europe, , something like : PSA , you have Heli on your right at 300 Ft has you in sight. passing being you " is that not standard in the US ?
especially with the fact that possibly the 2 were on different frequencies seems odd .
Anyway the whole procedure is very odd to me . Lots of holes in the cheese legally opened here .

Normally I get a call like "Your traffic is at X altitude at your 3 o'clock, they have you in sight" or similar. I have flown into DCA at night and would have been more than highly surprised to have a helicopter directed to fly basically 100 feet under me, in sight or no.

Subjects ATC DCA

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Upside Down
January 30, 2025, 13:08:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817221

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tu.114

Im not \x93familiar with DCA\x94 but from the Terminal Chart & discussion here it\x92s clear that the heli was following the transit route 4, which would be a normal activity. Though it\x92s also possible their plan was to leave route 4 & cross the river towards the airfield\x85.

I would expect the airliner not to have to take any avoiding action, as it\x92d be IFR on a standard arrival for RW33. I would expect ATC to inform them of the helicopter traffic below them on the east side of the river.
I would expect the helicopter traffic to ultimately be responsible for avoidance, and they\x92d I guess be flying \x91Special VFR\x92*. But as they\x92re in controlled airspace then they should have been warned (which apparently they were) about the arriving civil traffic.

If the helicopter was, indeed, following Route 4 then what led to the discrepancy in position & height is conjecture. Also why they confirmed traffic in sight yet still collided is conjecture (& It\x92s possible they had their own emergency)

*) does \x91Special VFR\x92 exist/ apply for \x91night VMC\x92 ops in US controlled airspace ? it\x92s a long time since my FAA/US flying days\x85\x85

Subjects ATC DCA IFR Route 4 Traffic in Sight

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island_airphoto
January 30, 2025, 13:23:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817231

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upside Down

I have flown into DCA many times at night and there was no special VFR, it was either IFR or VFR. The weather was clear, no one would have been calling for special VFR anyway.

Subjects ATC DCA IFR Route 4 Traffic in Sight VFR

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WHBM
January 30, 2025, 13:42:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817246

It looks like there was a close sequence of arrivals to runway 1. The accident aircraft was asked late in the process (though normal at DCA) if they would sidestep, right then left, onto runway 33, crossing runway 1 but helping with clearing that for the arrival behind. This doesn't seem to have been specifically passed to the helo crew, who were just asked to "go behind". So from a stream of arrivals in front of them all to their right of the river, suddenly here's one swinging out of the final approach line in the dark towards them, then swinging back.

And the helo was apparently flown by a trainee ...

Subjects Circle to Land (Deviate to RWY 33) DCA Pass Behind Pass Behind (All)

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island_airphoto
January 30, 2025, 13:54:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817261

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toruk Macto

Read somewhere the helicopter was a training flight ? If true is a high density , high workload and high threat environment really the place to do training ? I don’t know military training environment but this flight needed good crew crm, one operating , one looking out and working as a team . Full concentration on co ordinating ATC with traffic avoidance . If it was anything than a route famil with good crm and level command gradient it could have added to the outcome ?

When I was working as a CFI out of VKK, literally right outside the DCA Class B, we did training flights at DCA. It was not unusual, how were the students supposed to learn to deal with it if we never went there? One lesson was the "Big 3", going to DCA, IAD, BWI, and back home. ATC was happy enough, they surely didn't want n00bs blundering around there on their own with a fresh license and no clue.

Subjects ATC DCA

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Toruk Macto
January 30, 2025, 13:59:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817269

Quote:

Originally Posted by island_airphoto

Simulators , industry has moved away from training high risk simulated failures in an aircraft and introduced loft sessions to avoid training in high work load environments. Then a route check . No one saying send up an inexperienced crew to avoid intense training but just do it in a simulator .

Subjects ATC DCA

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SINGAPURCANAC
January 30, 2025, 14:00:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817270

Quote:

Originally Posted by island_airphoto

Shouldnt it be:
Pat 25 traffic at 11 o clock 3 miles, crj following ils for rwy 33, report in sight
??

Subjects DCA

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dragon6172
January 30, 2025, 14:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817272

Quote:

Originally Posted by visibility3miles

The helicopter\x92s right turn was directly over a golf course, not a residential neighborhood. It was probably done for noise abatement reasons, because it then turned left and proceeded down more directly over the river.

The golf course is on a peninsula in the river, so the helicopter was flying over water before and after it made the two turns.

The track in your image is not an accurate representation of PAT25s actual flight path. The leaked ATC radar track here and the VASAviation recreation here are more representative. There was no sharp RH turn to cross over the Potomac Park golf courses, it was a gentle RH turn to follow the published Route 1 to Route 4 helicopter transition around DCA.

Subjects ATC DCA Radar Route 4

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visibility3miles
January 30, 2025, 14:32:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817282

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon6172

My bad. The image was published online by the Washington Post, which is obviously covering the story, and elsewhere.

You could contact them if you want and tell them it\x92s wrong. No offense intended.

Even if it wasn\x92t a sharp turn, it was done over a golf course and their flight path was probably dictated by noise abatement reasons, as are those flown by jets flying into DCA.

Subjects ATC DCA Radar Route 4

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