DCA Page: 2 of 17

Mozella
January 30, 2025, 15:23:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817324

Quote:

Originally Posted by PerPurumTonantes

Heli route 4 is at or below 200ft if I read the chart correctly.

Approach traffic seems to be approx 400-500ft at this point.

Which turnip decided it would be OK to allow vertical separation of 300ft on a busy approach path? And allow it VFR at night?

This accident was baked in. Bound to happen at some point.

But it's worse than that. The approaches to DCA are only moderately complicated; however, unlike most airports, DCA is surrounded with frustrated people just waiting to call the FAA if you deviate from the published procedure by the slightest amount. Nobody want's to do a rug-dance in the Chief Pilot's office because some Senator's aide gets his/her panties in a wad, or worse, get a violation from the FAA because you flew over someone working for the Secretary of Transportation. I always enjoyed flying in and out of DCA because it was challanging, but I was always on my toes, constantly checking my altitude, position (both visually and via instruments), airspeed, etc. because it is so easy to get your teat in the wringer at DCA.
In this case, the aircraft was flying an approach to one runway with a circle-to-land on RW-33. Ask any pilot; a circle to land in itself ups the work load. The margin for error of any kind at DCA is small and the 5200 foot runway isn't all that long. Even on a simple landing where none of these considerations are an issue, at some point the pilots reduce their "see and avoid" efforts and concentrate their efforts on achieving the proper line up and glide slope, rate of descent, aircraft configuration, flap setting, etc. etc. etc. In other words, the complicated routine required to safely land an airliner these days is already close to task overload even when things are going well. Add in the fact that it's night time at a very busy airport and looking out the window gets shoved pretty far down the "to do" list. But generally speaking, the system works because big busy airports pretty much operate using IFR rules and nearly all the aircraft are under close control. I other words, even on a crystal clear day under VFR flight conditions, someone is keeping a very close eye on the airliners coming and going from major airports. If a pilot makes a mistake and levels off at the wrong altitude, for example, there is a very good chance a controller will catch that error immediately even on a sunny VFR day. And that's a good thing because truth-be-told, when an airliner is seconds from touch down these days, there isn't much "see and avoid" going on. That's just the way it is.

But apparently DCA routinely has all sorts of helo traffic buzzing around under modified VFR flight rules. The pilots are talking to a controller but without being under the same sort of close control which is usually associated with how airliners operate. And they do that night and day, trusting the helo pilots to not make a mistake. But it looks like someone DID make a mistake last night and nobody caught it in time.

Subjects ATC Circle to Land (Deviate to RWY 33) DCA FAA IFR Route 4 See and Avoid Separation (ALL) VFR Vertical Separation

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clearedtocross
January 30, 2025, 15:41:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817334

When and where I learned to fly (and on each new rating, refresher and check ride) we had to prove that we knew airspace classification. DCA is listed as class B airspace (and special rules on top).

Quote:

Class B. IFR and VFR flights are permitted, all flights are provided with air traffic control service and are separated from each other.

That should apply worldwide, not just in EASA land.
It seems to be a US speciality that ATC can delegate the separation to aircrews (visually) and this at night! And how the hell can ATC separate vertically near the ground when mode S transponders report pressure altitude in steps of 100 feet only?
I dont know the rules of vertical separation by heart but its certainly not less than 500 feet for crossing paths. Is one last digit more or less a separation? This heli crew should have been told by ATC to hold until the aircraft(s) on final have safely passed. It's one of the benefits of a helicopter that it can hover.

Subjects ATC DCA Hover IFR Separation (ALL) VFR Vertical Separation

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galaxy flyer
January 30, 2025, 15:45:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817340

Quote:

Originally Posted by island_airphoto

When I was working as a CFI out of VKK, literally right outside the DCA Class B, we did training flights at DCA. It was not unusual, how were the students supposed to learn to deal with it if we never went there? One lesson was the "Big 3", going to DCA, IAD, BWI, and back home. ATC was happy enough, they surely didn't want n00bs blundering around there on their own with a fresh license and no clue.

In the military, there\x92s training and training. This is a high profile unit assigned the most experienced US Army pilots. More likely training a newly assigned H-60 pilot who has thousands of hours\x97 call it, local qualification. Additionally, Army pilots are pilots, not officers with other tasks or politics.

Subjects ATC DCA

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pattern_is_full
January 30, 2025, 16:35:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817384

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lascaille

This is probably one of those situations where there should be a military/very limited commercial use airport in the current location and the 'real' airport should be hanging off the end of a high-speed rail line about 50 miles away q.v. Hong Kong.

That is partly how it works. Dulles-IAD and Baltimore-Washington-BWI serve as the "Hanging off the end...about 50 miles away" airports for Washington. D.C.

But the folks who vote to fund the FAA's budget (Congress) find it - convenient - to also have a civilian passenger airport just 2 miles away. For their jaunts back to their home states to "massage" the voters.

So the FAA does their bidding. And so do the airlines.

One of the Senators from Kansas at the original "midnight press conference" after the accident, with no apparent irony, said that he had pressured American Airlines' CEO for this direct and specific Wichita-to-DCA non-stop route. He happens to be a GOP Senator. But two of the "news interviewees" regarding the collision - Congressman Eric Swalwell (D-Calif) and perennial-FAA-thorn-in-the-side Mary Schiavo - both said they had also arrived at DCA shortly before the accident.

So it goes.

Subjects DCA FAA

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galaxy flyer
January 30, 2025, 16:46:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817393

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattern_is_full

Ansolutely. Ernie Gann, writing 75 years ago, called out DCA as a hazard to DC-3 operations.

It’s a political football that will not be closed or reordered because the politicians won’t be without it. All the more reason to close it down.

Subjects DCA FAA

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canigida
January 30, 2025, 16:52:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817403

muni golf

Quote:

Originally Posted by visibility3miles

My bad. The image was published online by the Washington Post, which is obviously covering the story, and elsewhere.

You could contact them if you want and tell them it\x92s wrong. No offense intended.

Even if it wasn\x92t a sharp turn, it was done over a golf course and their flight path was probably dictated by noise abatement reasons, as are those flown by jets flying into DCA.

no, all the local noise abatement procs are viewable online and that's not list that's. Hanes Point golf is not a gated course community or anything it's a muni golf course on national park land that's both run-down and charmingly relaxed place, but there's no residences, or anything living thing at night- just a big empty parking lot around there, and to the east is DoD property

Subjects DCA

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canigida
January 30, 2025, 17:20:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817430

errr..

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattern_is_full

good lord, from your pontification, you'd think that this was an exec airport for the ruling class. Tens of millions of people use it every year. Including me. It's revenues actually subside KIAD, and is the preferred airport for many, including me. I would prefer it remain open. "buy what about the children"... etc. etc. well, realistically you have a better chance of getting abducted by aliens than dying at KDCA. No, I am not in cahoots with the government elite
I have flown into KDCA , and traversed the inner FRZ Potomac TRACON airspace more than a thousand hours. It's an intense place (go listen to liveATC tower freq , every day it's "AA123, traffic on 36 inch final, cleared to takeoff rwy 1, NO DELAY, EXPEDITE!", but its not some cowboy wild west. Everybody keeps it together, even the GA folks are sharp. When I've flown out of Ft. Meade and you stay gotta keep your head under the B shelf because there's SWA fights a couple of hundred feet above. You can literally see SW pax in their window seat. On departing KCGS, I've been maybe 20 seconds delayed switching from CTAF to Potomac Approach checkin, and they told me they were panicking and just about to pick up The Red Phone to send me oblivion.
From friends, I know of three separate DC area military units doing fixed wing VIP transports, and I guess the Army also does helo VIP. They have done this for decades, there's an enormous amount of flights. It all seems to work well enough.
And for folks saying "they shouldn't have been doing training", well I can assure you it was not an initial training event. I've flown in Marathon KS, next to the Army blackhawk flight school, and that and their other two schools is where you go to train - wide open spaces. I know someone who was Marine 1 and they do sim training to the WH s. lawn, and then they obviously do a real checkout (without the POTUS) at the real thing.

Everytime there's a crash, this place is flooded with knee jerked, all ill considered. I bike past the KDCA all the time and I'm pretty sure there's no Berm of Satan, but I'm sure the mob will latch on to some new 'smoking gun'

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) DCA FAA KDCA President Donald Trump

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FUMR
January 30, 2025, 19:05:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817547

There was a line of traffic on approach to 01. The helicopter's track did not conflict with the extended line of 01. The problem starts with the CRJ accepting 33, breaking right and positioning for a left turn onto final. I don't think (despite ATC's info) that the chopper crew were quite fully aware of this and were in fact looking at traffic along the extended line of 01. The relatively late runway change, common as it is at DCA, was a major contributor to this accident in terms of the chopper pilots' awareness. Just thinking out loud and speculating like many others on here.

Subjects CRJ DCA

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CONAIR11
January 30, 2025, 19:44:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817589

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUMR

I would speculate something similar. They copper appears to be paralleling 01 and staying on the safe side of it. Even though he was made aware of traffic for 33 by ATC they may have missed that bit.

Subjects ATC CRJ DCA

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pax britanica
January 30, 2025, 20:09:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817610

I have flown in and out of DCA often and listening to the ATC recording , I am only a humble PAX but I think most people would find it alarming the amount of instructions that have to be issued to keep traffic flowing at DCA, Flying an approach to Rwy 1 and then skipping across to 33 so they can run a kind of pseudo parallel operation all mixed with VFR traffic in darkness , You can hear the strain/stress in the controllers voice as he tries to issue instructions to traffic that doesnt automatically deconflict . And thats without several seconds of the two incident aircraft head on to each other with 200 ft separation at less than 400 ft agl !!! Just tragic

Subjects ATC DCA Separation (ALL) VFR

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LowObservable
January 30, 2025, 20:12:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817613

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdracer

At the risk of adding more politics to this, I've read elsewhere (more than once) that the only reason Reagan National hasn't been closed years ago is because the various politicians in DC want the convenience of the close by airport (instead of having to travel out to Dulles).
IF this is a case of 'stuff happens' and not someone's serious error, maybe it's time to put human lives above the convenience of some politicians and close this airport.

That's a little over the top. DCA was at one time slated for closure with all traffic going to Dulles, and that was opposed by politicians, but it remains open today because people find it useful, and because aircraft are much quieter than they were in those days.

DCA should not be inherently dangerous to operate. It does work under 9/11-legacy restrictions that make it harder to use than it should be and that should be reviewed at such time as the US has a non-lunatic government. But I suspect that a root cause in this tragedy will be the expansion of military helicopter traffic and the Pentagon's insistence on maintaining two routes out of central DC, one down 395 and the other down the Potomac. There will be questions too if the collision was well above the 200-foot limit on the helo corridor. There is no way that a busy civilian heliport would be tolerated so close to a flightpath.

Subjects DCA

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henra
January 30, 2025, 20:22:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817621

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luc Lion

Adding an additional slice of cheese in the sandwich is very easy: just state that when 2 tracking routes provide less than 500 ft of separation, then they are mutually exclusive.

This is the really puzzling part. Looking at the expected altitude of an approaching Airliner with a 3\xb0 G/S at the expected crossing point it would be at 250 ft +/-50 That leaves a mere 0-100ft to the helicopter route (and that is assuming the Helo path along the East side of the Potomac, if it deviates somewhat to the West the default altitude of the Airliner will drop below 200ft at the crossing). This is simply insane. You could count the number of bolts in the rotor head if everything goes according to plan. If not -well we saw that last night. How can this be allowed? What was the plan? Did ATC assume the Helo would duck under? At night over water? And visual separation in case of a circle to land -not a straight in- at night? Courageous. Note to self: Never take a flight into DCA.

Subjects ATC Circle to Land (Deviate to RWY 33) DCA Separation (ALL) Visual Separation

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galaxy flyer
January 30, 2025, 20:22:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817622

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdracer

Having been in business for too long and flown in/out of DCA, both airline and private, I don\x92t think actually closing has ever been discussed once it was ruled out when Dulles opened. Certainly, the politicians wanted it open and played all sorts of politics with things like mouse curfews, perimeter rules, facility improvements. There\x92s no reason it couldn\x92t be closed, KIAD has lots of room to expand. It was a miserable place 40 years ago in a 727 with half the operations.

Subjects DCA

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Meehan Mydogg
January 30, 2025, 20:28:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817627

Hi all, I’m a UK lapsed PPL and, having listened to the recordings of the ATC comms during this incident, a number of things strike me.

1. The ATC (local controller, or LC) was entirely blameless and appears to have followed all the rules.

2. Likewise the crew of the airliner were entirely blameless, and appeared to be following the procedures perfectly.

3. The mistake, if that is the right word, clearly lies with the actions of the crew of the helicopter here, and the traffic they reported being visual with was obviously not the airliner involved. We will never know what they were looking at, but it wasn’t the CRJ referred to by the LC.

4. My guess is that the result of the investigation into this incident will point the finger at some sort of misunderstanding of radio comms, eg. The helicopter crew might have thought the LC was referring to another aircraft or something similar. Remember, misunderstood comms was responsible for Tenerife in 1977.

5. The troubling thing, though, was that it sounded to me as if the LC here was on the verge of being overwhelmed. He had to speak so quickly that his comms were bordering on being unfathomable. And yet it seems that this was ‘normality’ at DCA.

6. Effective radio comms depend on the people communicating speaking clearly and precisely, so that what they say is understood by all parties involved. That includes waiting for read-backs and acknowledgements.

7. This man was having to speak so fast in order to do his job that it seems strikingly obvious that the volume of traffic he was having to deal with was far too high.

8. I remember that in the UK when I was flying radio comms were set down in a detailed publication which I think was known as CAP413. What I heard of the comms at DCA last night fell rather short of that publication, but it was in no way the fault of the LC.

9. Rather, it was down to whoever set down how much traffic capacity was ‘safe’ to be handled at DCA, and the procedures allowed to accomplish that capacity. It was a fault of the procedures themselves, and my own personal opinion is that having low-level VFR helicopter traffic in potential conflict with low-level VFR airliner traffic in this way, and especially at night, is utterly bonkers.

10. Unless and until the authorities in the US reduce the volume of traffic that they deem to be safe at certain airports, these sorts of incidents will continue to be possible.

11. But of course they won’t reduce the volume, will they. Because the greater volume means more dollars, and dollars trumps safety, doesn’t it, regardless of the platitudes of politicians. It’s just that they have managed to get away with it for so long.

Subjects ATC CRJ DCA VFR

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22/04
January 30, 2025, 20:32:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817629

I'm m not going to do my UK vs US ting this time.

DCA does not seem to be inherently dangerous viewed by an outsider. Intense yes and the heli route does not make any sense. Certainly not if they are doing the 01/33 switch. Is there ground comms between the US mil heliport and the airport and can DCA put a temporary stop on a departure.

Controller seriously over worked but split frequencies may not be an advantage in this situation but two controllers operating would. Take turns in monitoring.

How long would a shift be at that pace for DCA tower - I wouldn't last 10 minutes.

An avoidable accident and thinking of those who lost their lives.

Last edited by Pilot DAR; 30th January 2025 at 20:35 . Reason: typo

Subjects ATC DCA

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WITCHWAY550
January 30, 2025, 20:56:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817645

AA5432 Down DCA

Terrible and tragic. If the Blackhawk crew did not or was not made aware of the landing patterns at DCA at that time they would then never expect to see an aircraft in front of them. I understand they had experience and expertise but if at that time they did not brief or discuss the terminal area traffic flow then I am not sure they were fully aware of their situation. All speculation...

Subjects Blackhawk (H-60) DCA

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canigida
January 30, 2025, 21:55:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817682

Quote:

Originally Posted by galaxy flyer

There's no reason to keep DCA open other than the people like me who lived here found it a convenient and useful airport. That's enough reason. I don't care what you and the other 10 people grasping at straws feel about keeping it open or not. If you don't want to fly here, don't. MYOB.
No, DCA not a miserable experience. IAD, with it's peoplemover (a 60 year old giant bus that you have to board after an 11 hour flight), however is most certainly pure misery.
The reason that KIAD has "plenty of room" is that it's landing and other fees are exorbitant which causing airlines to loathe it, leading to poor flight options and ridiculous prices. Up until 2024, DCA had been literally subsidizing Dulles for decades from their revenue (they're both in the same airport and both are in Virginia.) since customers prefer it. Without the subsidy, prices are just going to get worst.
The operation of DCA is a decision for Virginians (there are no 'DC' airports) It's not some grand political trick to keep it open.
Getting kinda bored with this whole "this whole airspace and DCA facility is a deathtrap" meme. I've been in and out of KDCA and flown at least a thousand hours in the DC FRZ and it's no wild west death trap. stop with the nonsense, please.

Subjects DCA KDCA

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rattle
January 30, 2025, 22:30:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817710

I am unfamiliar with the American systems but to cross Heathrow in a rotary, you are cleared across the east (or west) of the threshold "behind the landing aircraft". This may involve a short hold. If we were asked to cross 1 mile further out, then the chance of conflict increases. Is there a reason DCA doesn't have a low level military route crossing the threshold of 33 (when that is the active runway) and then continuing at around 240 degrees where 01 and 04 intercept (so landing aircraft on 01 will have touched down and departing aircraft won't have rotated)? Day or night, crossing 1 mile out seems like a high risk path?

Subjects DCA

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OldnGrounded
January 30, 2025, 22:30:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817712

Quote:

Originally Posted by canigida

The operation of DCA is a decision for Virginians (there are no 'DC' airports).

Umm, no. DCA and IAD are both operated by the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority. The real estate itself is still owned by the US Government (via the Department of Transportation, I think). Per the Wikipedia entry:

Quote:

The authority is governed by a 17-member board of directors with seven members appointed by the Governor of Virginia , four by the Mayor of the District of Columbia , three by the Governor of Maryland , and three by the President of the United States .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrop...orts_Authority

Last edited by OldnGrounded; 30th January 2025 at 22:53 . Reason: Typo

Subjects DCA President Donald Trump

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canigida
January 30, 2025, 23:24:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817756

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushed Approach

OK so what's your interpretation of the rules here then?

The airliner is under IFR rules on its flight plan until it gets changed to a different runway, when it's then VFR.

The chopper is under VFR, stooging along a river at 200 ft and avoiding traffic on approach to Reagan by visual clues alone.

Radar useless as the aircraft are too low.

Airliner TCAS useless as inhibited, even if it can decode the military transponder's data.

Radio situational awareness compromised as chopper on UHF, airliner on VHF. So each aircraft can neither hear the other nor the ATC instructions to that aircraft.

It's difficult to see aircraft at night against a backdrop of a city with thousands of lights. And when you're gonna hit something, as others have said, that light doesn't move relative to you, so you don't notice it - it just blends into the background lights.

It only takes the chopper to misidentify the aircraft it's supposed to go behind and to therefore turn into the path of the airliner it was supposed to avoid - draw the map with the vectors and it all makes sense. These two aircraft ended up in the Potomac, but they could have ended up in much worse places in terms of loss of life on the ground.

Seems to me it's been an accident waiting to happen for some time.

"It's difficult to see aircraft at night against a backdrop of a city with thousands of lights." - DC isn't actually that big of a city or that brightly lit, and it seems the UH-60 was heading south west, well away from DC toward a not very dense part of suburban N. Virginia. Mostly they would see a very wide part of the Potomac river ahead, and in the distance on the western shore is a Daingerfield island (US park service land and mostly unlit), the GW parkway going N/S for a couple hundred meters (all the parkways are dangerously unlit IMO) followed by some low level typical suburb condos of a couple stories towards Potomac Yard, which other than street lights or the sign from Target is not very bright. I kayak there all the time and there's nothing much to see looking westward. I've been out of KVKX at night and can see that area and it's not dazzling.

"Radar useless as the aircraft are too low." - It seems there's valid radar returns from both aircraft. the FAA has a good diagram of the Potomac TRACON radar sites, about 10 different radars, and having visited the TRACON several times, they readily explain there's another nearly facility that is a duplicate of their radar feed, but for national security. I assume there's coverage till the river service for security to prevent someone from sneaking up the river with bad ideas

"Radio situational awareness compromised as chopper on UHF, airliner on VHF. " - I fly in the area and in my experience everyone is on the same VHF, they might be also duped to UHF and can hear everybody on my handheld. You hear AF-1 all the time on freq.

"The chopper is under VFR, stooging along a river at 200 ft and avoiding traffic" - Most of the area NE of the airfield in a prohibited area, and there's a lot of military installations within 5 miles of DC that they are shuttling around, so that path seems perfectly acceptable given the numerous constraints. there's nothing wrong with a helo corridor as long as you stay within it and maintain the prescribed altitude. Also, it's not like KDCA is some secret place, the flight paths are pretty well known if that's where you work. It's popular to sit in parks on both ends and watch the planes, there's literally millions of local people that know exactly the planes are coming and going on both directions. so if you're a helo there, you know where the hot spots are. Likewise, its not just any helo in that area, everyone is vetted, fingerprinted in the inner FRZ.

" on approach to Reagan by visual clues alone" - The UH-60 was not going to DCA, the assumption was it was using the helo route 4 corridor. All the UH-60Ls I've seen have full glass with moving map and I'm assuming a magenta line for the helo corridor.

Fun Fact - Calling it "Reagan" will get you tarred and feathered in the area. Folks refuse to utter the name and for years (decades) the Metro refused to rename the station until legally forced.

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 31st January 2025 at 00:05 . Reason: Prescribed/proscribed

Subjects ATC Accident Waiting to Happen DCA FAA Hot Spots IFR KDCA Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Radar Route 4 Situational Awareness TCAS (All) VFR

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