February 10, 2025, 13:38:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11825508
Update yourself on what the NTSB is reporting.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...CA25MA108.aspx
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NTSB
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February 14, 2025, 21:24:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11828216
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NTSB
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February 22, 2025, 16:33:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11833758
… well having searched the usual places and the NTSB, you will have to help with directions and text for reference.
There is a NTSB Charter for data, but nothing which explains the link between ICAO and the USA, and thence to the NTSB and investigation, or the required statement of any USA deviation from the ICAO guidance (Annex 13).
Notwithstanding https://www.ntsb.gov/about/organizat...office_as.aspx
" fulfill U.S. obligations under International Civil Aviation Organization agreements"
"to examine specific aviation safety problems from a broader perspective. "
But back to the thread. Are there any reasons why NTSB might not comment on the wider organisational aspects as indicated in the discussion. Also noting that the NTSB have no powers of enforcement, relying on the FAA; thus if the FAA process were to be identified as deficient, who mandates change.
,,
Last edited by PEI_3721; 22nd February 2025 at 16:44 . Reason: Link
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FAA
ICAO
NTSB
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February 22, 2025, 17:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11833774
… well having searched the usual places and the NTSB, you will have to help with directions and text for reference.
There is a NTSB Charter for data, but nothing which explains the link between ICAO and the USA, and thence to the NTSB and investigation, or the required statement of any USA deviation from the ICAO guidance (Annex 13).
Notwithstanding https://www.ntsb.gov/about/organizat...office_as.aspx
" fulfill U.S. obligations under International Civil Aviation Organization agreements"
"to examine specific aviation safety problems from a broader perspective. "
But back to the thread. Are there any reasons why NTSB might not comment on the wider organisational aspects as indicated in the discussion. Also noting that the NTSB have no powers of enforcement, relying on the FAA; thus if the FAA process were to be identified as deficient, who mandates change.
,,
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FAA
ICAO
NTSB
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February 22, 2025, 19:36:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11833828
\x85 well having searched the usual places and the NTSB, you will have to help with directions and text for reference.
There is a NTSB Charter for data, but nothing which explains the link between ICAO and the USA, and thence to the NTSB and investigation, or the required statement of any USA deviation from the ICAO guidance (Annex 13).
Notwithstanding https://www.ntsb.gov/about/organizat...office_as.aspx
" fulfill U.S. obligations under International Civil Aviation Organization agreements"
"to examine specific aviation safety problems from a broader perspective. "
But back to the thread. Are there any reasons why NTSB might not comment on the wider organisational aspects as indicated in the discussion. Also noting that the NTSB have no powers of enforcement, relying on the FAA; thus if the FAA process were to be identified as deficient, who mandates change.
,,
first, the NTSB's authorization and processes are set by federal law and not by Annex 13 (although as the excerpt you quoted also says, Ann. 13 does apply where the case is international civil av.); and
second, the DCA midair is not within international civil aviation (sorry to find it necessary to state the obvious).
I cannot cite anything specific to support it but I'm strongly inclined to think Chair Homendy, at this point in her public service career, will insist on a report and supporting analysis that leaves, if you will, political niceties on the bottom of the Potomac shy of the Rny 3-3 threshold -- where they belong. We will see, time will tell.
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DCA
FAA
ICAO
NTSB
NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy
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March 11, 2025, 20:08:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11845606
Existing separation distances between helicopter traffic operating on Route 4 and aircraft landing on runway 33 are insufficient and pose an intolerable risk to aviation safety by increasing the chances of a midair collision.
When Route 4 operations are prohibited as recommended in Safety Recommendation A-25-1, it is critical for public safety helicopter operations to have an alternate route for operating in and around Washington, DC, without increasing controller workload.
To the Federal Aviation Administration:
Prohibit operations on helicopter Route 4 between Hains Point and the Wilson Bridge when runways 15 and 33 are being used for departures and arrivals, respectively, at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport. (A-25-1) (Urgent)
Designate an alternative helicopter route that can be used to facilitate travel between Hains Point and the Wilson Bridge when that segment of Route 4 is closed. (A-25-2) (Urgent)
Subjects
ATC
Findings
KDCA
Route 4
Separation (ALL)
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March 11, 2025, 20:21:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11845619
Subjects
NTSB
PAT25
Preliminary Report
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March 11, 2025, 20:35:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11845640
"Near Midair Collision Events at DCA
Review of information gathered from voluntary safety reporting programs along with FAA data regarding encounters between helicopters and commercial aircraft near DCA from 2011 through 2024 indicated that a vast majority of the reported events occurred on approach to landing. Initial analysis found that at least one TCAS resolution advisory (RA) was triggered per month due to proximity to a helicopter. In over half of these instances, the helicopter may have been above the route altitude restriction. Two-thirds of the events occurred at night.
A review of commercial operations (instrument flight rules departures or arrivals) at DCA between October 2021 and December 2024 indicated a total of 944,179 operations. During that time, there were 15,214 occurrences between commercial airplanes and helicopters in which there was a lateral separation distance of less than 1 nm and vertical separation of less than 400 ft. There were 85 recorded events that involved a lateral separation less than 1,500 ft and vertical separation less than 200 ft."
What is seen - reported; and what is dismissed … diminishes the value of reporting.
A system broken: a broken safety management system at the national level.
Subjects
DCA
FAA
NTSB
PAT25
Preliminary Report
Route Altitude
Separation (ALL)
TCAS (All)
Vertical Separation
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March 11, 2025, 21:07:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11845660
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Preliminary Report
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March 13, 2025, 19:01:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11846989
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-rele...R20250311.aspx
Shout-out to Blancolirio for including some review and comments regarding the report; as far as I recall the issuance of a separate report was not mentioned in the recent update by the Board in connection with its preliminary accident report.
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March 26, 2025, 08:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11854380
Here is the NTSB report/transcript and another transcript here . I couldn't locate the one on Prune way, way back but these 2 will do!). ATC specifically call the a/c sidestepping to 33 as the a/c PAT needs to identify. The ATCO even tells PAT what type it is. PAT then say they have "it" visual. Sadly, "it" wasn't the sidestepping a/c, it was another one. But no-one figured that out ...... till seconds before the crash. This initial exchange, according to the transcript, was about 2 min before the collision. It's only then, on the basis that PAT says they have seen "it" and, by implication, will visually avoid it, that ATC issue the clearance on down Route 4.
There was a lot of discussion earlier on in this Thread about how on earth PAT could be reliably expected to pick out the subject a/c from the rest of the stream of arrivals and at that distance (6 miles rings a bell).
It's only seconds before the crash that it appears that the poor ATCO suddenly starts to suspect the PAT crew are actually looking at a different a/c to the one he had asked them to identify and pass behind. But, by then, it was too late for him to figure out a solution to give to PAT.
As I said, this was all discussed many posts ago so it's easy to forget the details. Hope the links help!
Cheers, H 'n' H
Last edited by Hot 'n' High; 26th March 2025 at 08:44 .
Subjects
ATC
ATCO
NTSB
Pass Behind
Pass Behind (All)
Route 4
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June 11, 2025, 16:15:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11898559
Subjects: None
No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes').Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
August 04, 2025, 05:46:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11932987
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...CA25MA108.aspx
The docket is linked at the bottom of that page.
NTSB Public Docket
https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/?NTSBNumber=DCA25MA108
The docket contains evidence related to the investigation. Many NTSB investigations have public dockets; often they're released with the final report.
In the docket:
10-HELO-A FLIGHT DATA RECORDER - HELICOPTER - GROUP CHAIRMAN'S FACTUAL REPORT
https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Documen...0L_FDR-Rel.pdf
Subjects
Final Report
NTSB
NTSB Docket
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August 06, 2025, 12:31:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11934105
Not that the NTSB are going to apportion blame in their report, that isn\x92t their function. But it\x92s quite clear there were (and are) unsafe practices going on among controllers and operators in FAA/DOD land. Read the docket testimony here from page 463 onwards to about 468 or until you get bored.
https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Documen...dacted-Rel.pdf
Clearly Army pilots are calling visual on very distant traffic which they haven\x92t actually identified and can\x92t see, and controllers are believing them and contracting responsibility for collision avoidance to them. The Standards pilot being interviewed here (the most experienced Army pilot NTSB spoke to) even says \x91..I know it\x92s bad\x85\x92 but condones the practice because otherwise the PAT helos would have to hold!
The logic displayed here is totally crazy.
If ATC have taken the trouble to issue a traffic advisory to a helo, why does the helo pilot think it\x92s reasonable to assume the traffic (which they haven\x92t seen!) will be no factor. The Controller has called out that particular traffic to the helo pilot for a reason he\x92s become aware of, like the traffic\x92s intended flight path will shortly become a collision risk to the helo.
Last edited by Stagformation; 6th August 2025 at 15:33 .
Subjects
ATC
NTSB
NTSB Docket
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August 06, 2025, 13:54:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11934159
Subjects
TCAS (All)
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August 06, 2025, 18:07:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11934290
https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Documen...dacted-Rel.pdf
Last edited by Stagformation; 7th August 2025 at 08:57 .
Subjects
ATC
Route 4
Separation (ALL)
Visual Separation
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August 08, 2025, 06:37:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11935035
If they would has kept wings level, maybe both wings would have narrowly escaped major damage, only MLG and belly at risk of the main rotor.
But it all doesn't matter, really. 'Fate is the hunter' and they got caught.
You can see that the pitch-up reduced the airspeed, and the vertical speed was mostly unaffected. This would have had a net effect of making the descent steeper (as the Radio Alt suggests).
If the CRJ crew had remained unaware, we would've learned how the downwash of a helicopter affects the wings of a jet.
The ultimate point is that a situation where a helicopter scrapes by the underside of a jet is not supposed to occur. At this point, all bets are off anyway, and rather than pondering what to do in such a situation, the focus should be on how to prevent it in the first place.
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CRJ
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August 22, 2025, 21:32:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11942707
NTSB Aviation Investigation Preliminary Report - N879RW (RPA), UH-60 (PAT23)
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ATC
DCA
NTSB
PAT23
Preliminary Report
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December 12, 2025, 03:06:00 GMT
permalink Post: 12003913
Letter to Congressional leaders re: NDAA from NTSB Chair Homendy.
The letter is addressed to the Chair and Ranking Members of the Armed Services Committees in both the House and Senate.
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NDAA
NTSB
NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy
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December 12, 2025, 06:05:00 GMT
permalink Post: 12003936
Letter to Congressional leaders re: NDAA from NTSB Chair Homendy.
The letter is addressed to the Chair and Ranking Members of the Armed Services Committees in both the House and Senate.
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DCA
NDAA
NTSB
NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy
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