Posts about: "Hover" [Posts: 26 Page: 2 of 2]¶

Fair enough. I inferred his experience in military helos from his many discussions of his experience training flight crews. I'm not sure what other of his statements you consider "inaccurate" though, and you don't bother to back that statement up with any specifics. Would you care to expand on what inaccurate advice he gave?

What I can say about Mike is: he puts his name and his face and his reputation out there in public to have open discussions about flight safety, and in the context of this totally preventable collision, it would be beneficial to all if every expert here and elsewhere on the interwebs participated in a similarly open and public debate in relation to this incident. If you disagree with him, message him and invite a public debate.

I've lurked and read this forum for a long time. Decades? I can't even remember how long. Much as I enjoy reading it when a major incident occurs, it frustrates me to no end how it is filled with so many examples of institutional inertia, acquiescence to mind-numbingly antiquated regulations, ridiculous politics, and endless excuses, all of which inhibit the progress of technology and safety...not to segue into a rant but the most obvious example being, and which 99% of the non-flying public would agree with, that there is almost zero reason at this point to not have cameras in the cockpit and perhaps even live transmission of video and/or audio feeds on every commercial aircraft at this point \x96 the power and data/bandwidth requirements being miniscule relative to the benefits, at this point it is simply absurd that such features do not exist; the Jeju incident's loss of CVR data being the best recent example of what a hindrance to technological progress aviation regulations have become, when for a few dollars a consumer can own a tiny little dashcam that records stunning 4K video and broadcast quality audio in near total darkness with 100mph wind noise running on a small and safe lithium batteries trickle charged from a 5 watt power supply for days on end, which can be broadcast via wifi link to Starlink-satellite based internet across the entire planet. We live in the Space Age, but the data storage and recovery procedures for commercial aircraft still hearkens back to WW2...

That rant aside, as the videos posted above by others demonstrate:

- A Blackhawk can in fact stop on a dime (so whatever you're suggesting Mike Blackstone was wrong about, it certainly wasn't that).

- Obviously that shouldn't be the plan , but it still a legitimate question to ask, in the context of an emergency, and when every other safety precaution has already failed, why couldn't it be done? Other poster's rationalize: at the low altitude, there's nowhere to go. The videos demonstrate otherwise. You can stop a Blackhawk 50 feet above the ground in seconds. If deviating in any direction is a risk, why didn't ATC just say " PAT25 slow to stop and hover!" \x96 as a Very. Last. Resort?

- I don't understand how we can have a system of "Air Traffic Control" that defers its control to aircraft at night around a busy airport with intersecting approaches. It's nonsensical. I honestly didn't know it was a thing. I thought all major airports had flight paths that kept inbound and outbound aircraft in separate non-conflicting lanes at all times. Obviously, I'm extremely naive. From my perspective, it seems as though the professionals involved are allowed no intuition to deviate when the procedures clearly compromise safety? Apparently they're all reduced to being bots who can only read checklists? If that's the case, then why not run the whole system on "AI"? I know I'm being spicy by saying that, given all the pilots on this forum who harp on about how stupid AI is (true for the moment, but not for much longer, rest assured), yet many consider it perfectly reasonable for ATC procedures being to read out the type of aircraft to a pilot who is flying in total darkness in order to fulfill delegation of its responsibility to control air traffic, as if that procedure actually helps? Are we through the looking glass? It doesn't take a three year NTSB investigation to infer how stupid that is. Yet some defend it. Why?

To respond to your assertions, a medium helicopter cruising at ~100kias at night, over water, possibly on NVGs does not stop on a dime nor come to a 50' hover in seconds. Even the YT vids don't show anything to support such a claim since they are daytime, slow speed start to the manoeuvre and pre planned. Hardly the night time emergency stop being called for here, whereas IMO a 180 would achieve a better collision avoidance than an attempt at a fast stop

My experience? 15,000 hours rotary with at least 4-5,000 hours below 200', 1,500 night hours, Mil/Civil mix of mediums (21,000lb) down to horrid little clockwork toys.

No further online discussion from me, but it would be interesting to know your pilot qualifications to post here with such assumed authority, please?

I disagree. Visual separation had little if anything to do with this. The single layer was the utterly bizarre airspace design which mandates a helo route to cross a final approach track at effectively the same height which is simply insane. Once again, at Heathrow, one of the world's busiest airports, crossing helo traffic is held at clearly defined holding points if necessary by the Tower controller on the same frequency as all other Tower traffic and, (another critical difference) having positively identified the horizontally conflicting traffic by using proper definitive r/t as opposed to the lethally sloppy 'do you see the CRJ' when there are many aircraft to see it is cleared to cross behind, which is visual separation horizontally. But with 1000ft vertical too.
You cannot actively vector a helo at 200ft over the black hole of a river in the middle of an urban environment or anywhere else. You'd kill helos every month doing that. If the helo were at 100ft or so there would be no need for vectors (you never get them in London, just holding, ie orbits if necessary).
Visual acknowlewgement from the aeroplane is totally unnecessary as he is on finals to land which give total priority over all other traffic. It is up to the give-way traffic to identify and acknowlege.
500ft vertical I agree with, in which case 1,5 miles is totally unnecessary and ridiculously excessive.

This discussion is being considerably bogged down by a really surprising (to me) absence of understanding of helos and helo ops by people who clearly only fly f/w IFR and seem to have no concept of how the rest of the aviation world works. Strangely, there are other ways of aviating safely without staring exclusively at an instrument panel, following a magenta line and doing only what someone miles away in an office tells you. You simply cannot try to apply IFR airline type procedures and mindset to low level VFR traffic. It's like a train driver trying to dictate railway rules to a motorcyclist and being unaware that motorcycles just don't operate like trains... imaginingthat helos can or would come to a free air hover for separation is another example of unrealistic imagnation over reality.

Please, if you don't know anything about helicopter ops, please don't try to apply procedural IFR or Hollywood mindsets/misapprehensions to them as if there is no other waay of flying.

fdr, bdcooper et al. The L model ( and original A models), come standard with dual SAS and airspeed hold/attitude hold and heading hold. No separate buttons for airspeed hold etc-its built into the AFCS.
Now the M model is equipped with additional features so you can if wanted have a hands off approach to a hover ( any hover height ) at any preselected destination of your choice etc. M model came after I retired so I\x92m not expert on that operation.
The L model in this accident has the 3400shp gearbox and bigger engines, thus with say full tanks and three crew, and as I recall we increased the tail rotor authority. In any case, coming to a hover OGE or any other maneuver you had in mind doesn\x92t present any problems. HOGE/backwards 45 kts-whatever-have at it. Only other thing that may deserve a note is that I do believe ( subject to correction from current Hawk pilots) that they would be using NVGs which flip up so they may have them on, but can choose whether to use them.

They weren't in a hover. And backwash, when in forward flight at 100 kts? Where are you coming up with this?
Do you understand what translational lift is?
If they were flying at 100 kts (which is roughly what speed they seem to have been going) their static ports will work fine.

The tests NTSB did said otherwise. Reading 80-130 ft lower in flight vs 20-55 ft on the ground and the FDR data didn't match the video from the tests.