Posts about: "Normalization of Deviance" [Posts: 63 Page: 4 of 4]ΒΆ

ATC Watcher
February 17, 2026, 11:23:00 GMT
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Post: 12038569
We are going now a bit off topic , but there are indeed similarities between DCA and Uberlingen on how the families and lawyers react , and most likely how the judges will react in the end to find who are responsible and award damages to the families.
Lawyers represent both sides so sometimes it is shocking for us professionals who know the truth , confirmed by the official accident report to hear their arguments . .

In Uberlingen there were 13 holes in the cheese layer , any one of them closed and there would likely not have been an accident .For the judges to select only a few of them and concentrate on the person responsible for that hole is not what we, professionals would do , but this is how their system works. ,
Some of the holes were plain bad luck , but many others were man made. The BFU investigated and (tried to) explain all the holes, , the judges only a couple.

The similarities with DCA : on the accident itself , , for the controllers : normalization of deviance , being trained to do things which are not in the book .The judge will look at the book and say the controller did not follow the procedures . . Lawyers from the other side will be exploiting this loophole .
On the pilots : both the Russians and the Bluestreak did things not in their book either , for instance on reactions to TCAS alerts , or on accepting a procedure not briefed.. Lawyers are likely to exploits that as well.

From blind pew : Accidents have far reaching consequences and surely we owe it to the victims and their families to be told the truth.
But the cover ups keep coming
We should not expect the truth coming from the legal system and even when the legal system brings out the truth in the end it does not necessary close the grief for the families . . Taking the Nantes Collison of 1973, , the final trial came 9 years after the event, and after major objections from the Government and the Military which tried to cover up the evidence. and had already delivered their version of the "facts: on the media and State television . .
Still today , 50 years later , the French Government and especially the Armeee de l'Air , still refuse the judgement conclusion ( saying that they are responsible for the collision ) , saying it was false , and still refuse to acknowledge the evidence . For the victim's families , mostly British and Spanish, the wound is still wide open as no-one was held responsible in the end , only "the State " in all its anonymity .


Subjects ATC  DCA  Grief  Normalization of Deviance  TCAS (All)

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Musician
February 18, 2026, 19:31:00 GMT
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Post: 12039332
Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
Wrong. Visual lookout is a responsibility for all members of the crew. That's a shared responsibility, and briefed before every flight.
The PIC reported 'traffic in sight' when he clearly hadn't, he should never have asked for visual separation (normalisation of deviance).
We don't know of any gestures, if any pilot pointed at lights, but there is nothing in the CVR transcript that indicates the PF was aware of the traffic, or that the PIC pointed the traffic out to her; the PF certainly did not factor in the decision to request visual separation.

So when the PIC transmitted,
20:46:07.9 RDO-1 PAT two five has the traffic in sight request visual separation .
what would you have the PF do? Ask the instructor where it is? Or trust the instructor, and concentrate on flying?
or did the PF know that neither of them could identify the traffic, but accepted it as normal?

Subjects CVR  Normalization of Deviance  Separation (ALL)  Traffic in Sight  Visual Separation

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island_airphoto
February 19, 2026, 04:20:00 GMT
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Post: 12039466
Originally Posted by Musician
The PIC reported 'traffic in sight' when he clearly hadn't, he should never have asked for visual separation (normalisation of deviance).
We don't know of any gestures, if any pilot pointed at lights, but there is nothing in the CVR transcript that indicates the PF was aware of the traffic, or that the PIC pointed the traffic out to her; the PF certainly did not factor in the decision to request visual separation.

So when the PIC transmitted,
20:46:07.9 RDO-1 PAT two five has the traffic in sight request visual separation .
what would you have the PF do? Ask the instructor where it is? Or trust the instructor, and concentrate on flying?
or did the PF know that neither of them could identify the traffic, but accepted it as normal?
Any student flying in some scenario where they don't have good vision themselves like wearing NVG gear or foggles puts an enormous amount of trust in their instructor.

Subjects CVR  Night Vision Goggles (NVG)  Normalization of Deviance  Separation (ALL)  Traffic in Sight  Visual Separation

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