PAT23 Page: 1 of 1

BFSGrad
May 03, 2025, 04:08:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11877511

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowObservable

I know I have been bleating loudly about the visible practice of taking a route to the east of the Pentagon, but here's the latest.

Looks like someone did exactly that today, forcing two go-arounds.

Quick take after looking at ADS-B data and listening to some LiveATC:

DCA LC helicopter and fixed wing positions were combined (Bueller? Bueller?)

PAT23 was a Gold Top (Mike) UH-60

PAT23 was issued two holds along Route 5: (1st) 3 mi W of DCA, and (2nd) at \x93Glebe\x94

LC then cleared PAT23 from \x93Glebe\x94 along Route 5 to the Pentagon

LC made multiple requests to PAT23 to report landing assured. It seemed to take an unusually long time for PAT23 to get to the JPN landing pad. Unclear why PAT23 (and apparently other helicopters) fly counter-clockwise; i.e., continue to follow 395 S of Pentagon (past south parking), then turn N to follow 110 (past the Metro entrance) to the JPN landing pad. Why not use the charted transition route along 27/Washington Blvd?

LC seemed unclear of PAT23\x92s position. At one point directed PAT23 to fly westbound while PAT23 appeared to be landing.

Both DAL1671 and RPA5825 go-arounds were LC directed. No pilot reports of TCAS RA heard. After checking in with departure/approach, PCT didn\x92t request reason for go-around and pilots made no comment about go-around.

Subjects ADSB (All) DCA PAT23 Route 5 TCAS (All) TCAS RA

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LowObservable
May 03, 2025, 12:55:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11877718

And it's 0740 and we just had the first DCA go-around of the day...

Unclear why PAT23 (and apparently other helicopters) fly counter-clockwise; i.e., continue to follow 395 S of Pentagon (past south parking), then turn N to follow 110 (past the Metro entrance) to the JPN landing pad. Why not use the charted transition route along 27/Washington Blvd?

Not a clue, but someone should ask - and, after Thursday, someone should be relieved of command. Because the helo didn't do one pass east of the Pentagon but two, making a circuit after causing the first go-around, and triggering a second. All the while in the ground clutter - hence the jump in data - and apparently, per BFSGrad, unresponsive to control.

The video is in a Twitter post by @STATter911. Cannot link here.

Subjects DCA PAT23

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BFSGrad
May 03, 2025, 19:28:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11877898

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowObservable

Not a clue, but someone should ask - and, after Thursday, someone should be relieved of command.

Perhaps the KJPN Chart Sup remarks can explain:

Quote:

CAUTION - TFC PAT - KJPN EAST/WEST OPS. SPECIAL PRO TFC PAT. WHEN LDG W ALL ARR ACFT MAKE LEFT TFC CIRCLING THE PENTAGON AT OR BLW 200 FT. WHEN DEP E ALL ACFT MAKE RIGHT TFC CIRCLING THE PENTAGON AT OR BLW 200 FT.

This would seem to explain the CCW approach as PAT23 was landing W. In the VASAviation video just posted, the KPJN tower appears to direct PAT23 to conduct a CCW orbit of the Pentagon. Coordination between the KJPN tower and KDCA LC seems to have been the problem.

Quote:

SPECIAL PRO; TFC PAT AND OPR RULES EXIST DUE TO WASHINGTON TCA; PRK; NOISE; FLT PLAN CDN AND VISUAL RTE RSTRNS.

Not sure how up-to-date the Army keeps this Chart Sup info. TCA was replaced by Class B many moons ago.

Quote:

HELIPAD PHYSLY LCTD ON W SIDE OF PENTAGON BLDG.

The pre-9/11 helipad was on the W side. The post-9/11 helipad is on the north side.

Quote:

Owned by the Army
U.S.ARMY ATCA-ASO
CAMERON STA
ALEXANDRIA, VA 22314

The Army closed Cameron Station in 1995. Under navigation aids, Nottingham (OTT) Tacan listed as a VORTAC. The VOR portion of OTT was decommissioned at least a decade ago.

Subjects KDCA PAT23

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BFSGrad
August 22, 2025, 21:32:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11942707

This incident was discussed in posts #1506-1527 of this thread.

NTSB Aviation Investigation Preliminary Report - N879RW (RPA), UH-60 (PAT23)

Quote:

…but around this time, PAT23 had checked in with the JPN Heliport Tower (HT) LC controller and was attempting to land on the helipad without a landing clearance. When the JPN HT LC controller queried the crew to ask who had cleared them to land, the crew advised they were executing a go around and that DCA ATCT had cleared them to the helipad.

Subjects ATC DCA NTSB PAT23 Preliminary Report

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BFSGrad May 03, 2025, 04:08:00 GMT permalink Post: 11877511	Quote: Originally Posted by LowObservable I know I have been bleating loudly about the visible practice of taking a route to the east of the Pentagon, but here's the latest. Looks like someone did exactly that today, forcing two go-arounds. Quick take after looking at ADS-B data and listening to some LiveATC: DCA LC helicopter and fixed wing positions were combined (Bueller? Bueller?) PAT23 was a Gold Top (Mike) UH-60 PAT23 was issued two holds along Route 5: (1st) 3 mi W of DCA, and (2nd) at \x93Glebe\x94 LC then cleared PAT23 from \x93Glebe\x94 along Route 5 to the Pentagon LC made multiple requests to PAT23 to report landing assured. It seemed to take an unusually long time for PAT23 to get to the JPN landing pad. Unclear why PAT23 (and apparently other helicopters) fly counter-clockwise; i.e., continue to follow 395 S of Pentagon (past south parking), then turn N to follow 110 (past the Metro entrance) to the JPN landing pad. Why not use the charted transition route along 27/Washington Blvd? LC seemed unclear of PAT23\x92s position. At one point directed PAT23 to fly westbound while PAT23 appeared to be landing. Both DAL1671 and RPA5825 go-arounds were LC directed. No pilot reports of TCAS RA heard. After checking in with departure/approach, PCT didn\x92t request reason for go-around and pilots made no comment about go-around. Subjects ADSB (All) DCA PAT23 Route 5 TCAS (All) TCAS RA Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
LowObservable May 03, 2025, 12:55:00 GMT permalink Post: 11877718	And it's 0740 and we just had the first DCA go-around of the day... Unclear why PAT23 (and apparently other helicopters) fly counter-clockwise; i.e., continue to follow 395 S of Pentagon (past south parking), then turn N to follow 110 (past the Metro entrance) to the JPN landing pad. Why not use the charted transition route along 27/Washington Blvd? Not a clue, but someone should ask - and, after Thursday, someone should be relieved of command. Because the helo didn't do one pass east of the Pentagon but two, making a circuit after causing the first go-around, and triggering a second. All the while in the ground clutter - hence the jump in data - and apparently, per BFSGrad, unresponsive to control. The video is in a Twitter post by @STATter911. Cannot link here. Subjects DCA PAT23 Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
BFSGrad May 03, 2025, 19:28:00 GMT permalink Post: 11877898	Quote: Originally Posted by LowObservable Not a clue, but someone should ask - and, after Thursday, someone should be relieved of command. Perhaps the KJPN Chart Sup remarks can explain: Quote: CAUTION - TFC PAT - KJPN EAST/WEST OPS. SPECIAL PRO TFC PAT. WHEN LDG W ALL ARR ACFT MAKE LEFT TFC CIRCLING THE PENTAGON AT OR BLW 200 FT. WHEN DEP E ALL ACFT MAKE RIGHT TFC CIRCLING THE PENTAGON AT OR BLW 200 FT. This would seem to explain the CCW approach as PAT23 was landing W. In the VASAviation video just posted, the KPJN tower appears to direct PAT23 to conduct a CCW orbit of the Pentagon. Coordination between the KJPN tower and KDCA LC seems to have been the problem. Quote: SPECIAL PRO; TFC PAT AND OPR RULES EXIST DUE TO WASHINGTON TCA; PRK; NOISE; FLT PLAN CDN AND VISUAL RTE RSTRNS. Not sure how up-to-date the Army keeps this Chart Sup info. TCA was replaced by Class B many moons ago. Quote: HELIPAD PHYSLY LCTD ON W SIDE OF PENTAGON BLDG. The pre-9/11 helipad was on the W side. The post-9/11 helipad is on the north side. Quote: Owned by the Army U.S.ARMY ATCA-ASO CAMERON STA ALEXANDRIA, VA 22314 The Army closed Cameron Station in 1995. Under navigation aids, Nottingham (OTT) Tacan listed as a VORTAC. The VOR portion of OTT was decommissioned at least a decade ago. Subjects KDCA PAT23 Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
BFSGrad August 22, 2025, 21:32:00 GMT permalink Post: 11942707	This incident was discussed in posts #1506-1527 of this thread. NTSB Aviation Investigation Preliminary Report - N879RW (RPA), UH-60 (PAT23) Quote: …but around this time, PAT23 had checked in with the JPN Heliport Tower (HT) LC controller and was attempting to land on the helipad without a landing clearance. When the JPN HT LC controller queried the crew to ask who had cleared them to land, the crew advised they were executing a go around and that DCA ATCT had cleared them to the helipad. Subjects ATC DCA NTSB PAT23 Preliminary Report Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

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