Pass Behind (PAT25) Page: 1 of 1

BFSGrad
January 30, 2025, 05:23:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816892

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capi_Cafre'

A late change to 33 had the potential to put the jet low and in conflict with the helicopter corridor.

Don\x92t think it was a late change. Listening to LiveATC, local controller (LC) calls the CRJ at 1200 ft, inbound 33, over the Wilson Bridge as a traffic advisory to PAT25. Don\x92t hear reply but it sounds like LC then says \x93visual separation approved.

LC then approves AAL1630 for immediate takeoff runway 1 with advisory of CRJ on 2-mile left base for 33.

LC queries PAT25 \x93do you have the CRJ in sight\x94? No reply heard but LC then directs PAT25 to pass behind the CRJ.

PAT25 may have been watching next in sequence, AAL3130, landing runway 1, instead of CRJ.

Subjects ATC CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Separation (ALL)

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EFHF
January 30, 2025, 17:27:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817434

Quote:

Originally Posted by SASless

Do standard IAP Procedures by Airlines require use of Glide Slope information even when VFR.....which would make me ask the question what height the RJshould have been at at the point it collided with t he helicopter.

According to the simulation by VAS, the collision happened between the center and the east bank of the river, approximately at 38.84298, -77.02531, which is 4200 ft from the threshold, so at 3 degree glide slope the correct height for an ILS approach would have been 220 ft AGL. But there was no ILS procedure.

In any case there could not have been any reasonable horizontal separation even if the helo flew within the helo route altitude restrictions. TWR gave instructions for lateral separation with this call:

Quote:

PAT25, pass behind the CRF.

Last edited by EFHF; 30th January 2025 at 18:00 . Reason: Error in TDZ location corrected, AGL was 175 ft before correction

Subjects PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Route Altitude Separation (ALL)

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GoWest
January 31, 2025, 11:22:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818119

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prob30Tempo TSRA

Is there any audio suggesting the heli acknowledged the instruction to pass behind ?

it seems fairly obvious where the blame lies but more interesting is the systematic failures that lead to them being there .

There is some audio around on Youtube. Scanner stuff for arrivals at Reagan. CRJ can be heard accepting runway 33.

Arrivals tells PAT25 Heli to keep watch for CRJ. There is no acknowledgment. Arrivals then tells PAT 25 to pass behind CRJ. There is no acknowledgment. Then boom.
Capt Sully responded today. Said dark water gives no indication of height or direction of other aircraft. Put to bed Trumps remarks that it was a clear night so should have seen aircraft but then he now reckons it's the control tower that are the problem.

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 31st January 2025 at 11:28 . Reason: Remove the political comments

Subjects CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25)

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Capn Bloggs
January 31, 2025, 11:39:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818126

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoWest

Arrivals tells PAT25 Heli to keep watch for CRJ. There is no acknowledgment. Arrivals then tells PAT 25 to pass behind CRJ. There is no acknowledgment.

Rubbish. Listen to the YT video directly above your last post.

Subjects CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25)

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Lascaille
January 31, 2025, 12:07:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818151

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoWest

Do you have a link to any such video? Because if this is genuinely what you've heard I'd like to know the source and origin. Because there's other content out there which has the helo acknowledging (twice) sight of the aircraft and requesting visual separation. But they then proceed to fly right into the traffic they apparently have sight of. So...

Subjects CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Separation (ALL) Visual Separation

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TachyonID
January 31, 2025, 16:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818323

Comms

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoWest

That's because the military helicopter was on a different assigned frequency, per the protocols.
He acknowledged, the VASaviation stitch-up makes that clear.

But, it is a problem that other commercial traffic (including the CRJ) could only hear the LC's side of the radio traffic.
That will undoubtedly be surfaced in the report.

Subjects CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25)

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GoWest
January 31, 2025, 23:15:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818607

Rubbish

Listen to the audio at 1.10 to 1.13

Controller asks PAT25 if CRJ in sight NO ANSWER

Controller asks PAT25 to pass behind. NO ANSWER

Dealt with.

Subjects ATC CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25)

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jonas64
January 31, 2025, 23:21:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818613

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoWest

Rubbish

Listen to the audio at 1.10 to 1.13

Controller asks PAT25 if CRJ in sight NO ANSWER

Controller asks PAT25 to pass behind. NO ANSWER

Dealt with.

Don't assume the audio the public has access to is the same as what the controller was hearing. The ATC audio archives from LiveATC are taken from ground stations, mostly operated by members of the public. It is far inferior in quality and reception to what the controllers are actually hearing.

Subjects ATC CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25)

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AirScotia
January 31, 2025, 23:42:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818626

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoWest

Rubbish

Listen to the audio at 1.10 to 1.13

Controller asks PAT25 if CRJ in sight NO ANSWER

Controller asks PAT25 to pass behind. NO ANSWER

Dealt with.

There are several recordings - not all of them capture the helicopter frequency.

This shows exactly the communications. The heli was told about the CRJ at 1200ft, going for 33. The heli said explicitly they had the plane in sight.

7:20 onwards.

Subjects ATC CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25)

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FullyFullyReady
February 01, 2025, 00:18:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818645

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoWest

Rubbish

Listen to the audio at 1.10 to 1.13

Controller asks PAT25 if CRJ in sight NO ANSWER

Controller asks PAT25 to pass behind. NO ANSWER

Dealt with.

I believe the controller was working two frequencies (duplexed?), probably 119.1 and 134.35, so raw LiveATC recordings would only pick up one side of the conversation.
The two traffic items probably didn't hear each other.

Subjects ATC CRJ Frequency 119.1 Frequency 134.35 PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25)

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51bravo
February 06, 2025, 10:57:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11822897

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commando Cody

Tower pointed out the CRJ twice and PAT25 affirmed they had traffic in sight and twice requested visual separation, which was approved. Controller did everything right.

Question: In the last seconds:

Controller instructed very firmly: "PAT25, pass behind the CRJ"

There was no such readback, instead:
PAT25: "PAT25 has CRJ in sight, request visual separation"
Controller: "vis sep approved"

Does the "request visual separation" undo the "pass behind"?
(just trying to refresh my phraseology understanding, its long time passed, my PPL is not current a long time since)

Subjects ATC CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Phraseology (ATC) Separation (ALL) Traffic in Sight Visual Separation

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ATC Watcher
August 11, 2025, 08:34:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11936560

@ Sailvi767 : Are you suggesting that somehow the CRJ crew bears some responsibility in not acting on a TA and therefore bears some responsibility in this accident ? At least this is what I am making of your posting .
If I am correct can you stop this discussion Remember journalists and possibly families members of those 2 pilots are watching too.
To close that bit just read the CRJ CVR transcript (*)
47:29 : eGPWS : 500 hundred
47:35 : I got 2 whites and 2 red
47:37 : cool ( my note : so they were looking at the PAPI )
47::40 : "Traffic traffic " ( my note : TA audio)
47:47 : TWR :" PAT 25 pass behind the CRJ "
47:55 : eGPWS : ...hundred ..
47:58 " Oh Sh!!!!!
47:59 : sound of impact .

Subjects CRJ Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25)

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Sailvi767
August 11, 2025, 17:19:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11936840

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

As I posted on here before I had that exact same scenario happen to me on runway 33 in DCA. Traffic closing on a collision course on TCAS. Tower reported the traffic had us in sight. When the traffic closed to \xbd mile with no vector change apparent We went around from 400 feet. We never saw the traffic. Tower chewed my butt saying the traffic had us in sight. I didn\x92t care.

Subjects ATC CRJ DCA Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) TCAS (All) Traffic in Sight

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BFSGrad January 30, 2025, 05:23:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816892	Quote: Originally Posted by Capi_Cafre' A late change to 33 had the potential to put the jet low and in conflict with the helicopter corridor. Don\x92t think it was a late change. Listening to LiveATC, local controller (LC) calls the CRJ at 1200 ft, inbound 33, over the Wilson Bridge as a traffic advisory to PAT25. Don\x92t hear reply but it sounds like LC then says \x93visual separation approved. LC then approves AAL1630 for immediate takeoff runway 1 with advisory of CRJ on 2-mile left base for 33. LC queries PAT25 \x93do you have the CRJ in sight\x94? No reply heard but LC then directs PAT25 to pass behind the CRJ. PAT25 may have been watching next in sequence, AAL3130, landing runway 1, instead of CRJ. Subjects ATC CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Separation (ALL) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 7 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
EFHF January 30, 2025, 17:27:00 GMT permalink Post: 11817434	Quote: Originally Posted by SASless Do standard IAP Procedures by Airlines require use of Glide Slope information even when VFR.....which would make me ask the question what height the RJshould have been at at the point it collided with t he helicopter. According to the simulation by VAS, the collision happened between the center and the east bank of the river, approximately at 38.84298, -77.02531, which is 4200 ft from the threshold, so at 3 degree glide slope the correct height for an ILS approach would have been 220 ft AGL. But there was no ILS procedure. In any case there could not have been any reasonable horizontal separation even if the helo flew within the helo route altitude restrictions. TWR gave instructions for lateral separation with this call: Quote: PAT25, pass behind the CRF. Last edited by EFHF; 30th January 2025 at 18:00 . Reason: Error in TDZ location corrected, AGL was 175 ft before correction Subjects PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Route Altitude Separation (ALL) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
GoWest January 31, 2025, 11:22:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818119	Quote: Originally Posted by Prob30Tempo TSRA Is there any audio suggesting the heli acknowledged the instruction to pass behind ? it seems fairly obvious where the blame lies but more interesting is the systematic failures that lead to them being there . There is some audio around on Youtube. Scanner stuff for arrivals at Reagan. CRJ can be heard accepting runway 33. Arrivals tells PAT25 Heli to keep watch for CRJ. There is no acknowledgment. Arrivals then tells PAT 25 to pass behind CRJ. There is no acknowledgment. Then boom. Capt Sully responded today. Said dark water gives no indication of height or direction of other aircraft. Put to bed Trumps remarks that it was a clear night so should have seen aircraft but then he now reckons it's the control tower that are the problem. Last edited by Senior Pilot; 31st January 2025 at 11:28 . Reason: Remove the political comments Subjects CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Capn Bloggs January 31, 2025, 11:39:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818126	Quote: Originally Posted by GoWest Arrivals tells PAT25 Heli to keep watch for CRJ. There is no acknowledgment. Arrivals then tells PAT 25 to pass behind CRJ. There is no acknowledgment. Rubbish. Listen to the YT video directly above your last post. Subjects CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 3 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Lascaille January 31, 2025, 12:07:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818151	Quote: Originally Posted by GoWest There is some audio around on Youtube. Scanner stuff for arrivals at Reagan. CRJ can be heard accepting runway 33. Arrivals tells PAT25 Heli to keep watch for CRJ. There is no acknowledgment. Arrivals then tells PAT 25 to pass behind CRJ. There is no acknowledgment. Then boom. Do you have a link to any such video? Because if this is genuinely what you've heard I'd like to know the source and origin. Because there's other content out there which has the helo acknowledging (twice) sight of the aircraft and requesting visual separation. But they then proceed to fly right into the traffic they apparently have sight of. So... Subjects CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Separation (ALL) Visual Separation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
TachyonID January 31, 2025, 16:10:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818323	Comms Quote: Originally Posted by GoWest There is some audio around on Youtube. Scanner stuff for arrivals at Reagan. CRJ can be heard accepting runway 33. Arrivals tells PAT25 Heli to keep watch for CRJ. There is no acknowledgment. Arrivals then tells PAT 25 to pass behind CRJ. There is no acknowledgment. Then boom. Capt Sully responded today. Said dark water gives no indication of height or direction of other aircraft. Put to bed Trumps remarks that it was a clear night so should have seen aircraft but then he now reckons it's the control tower that are the problem. That's because the military helicopter was on a different assigned frequency, per the protocols. He acknowledged, the VASaviation stitch-up makes that clear. But, it is a problem that other commercial traffic (including the CRJ) could only hear the LC's side of the radio traffic. That will undoubtedly be surfaced in the report. Subjects CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
GoWest January 31, 2025, 23:15:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818607	Rubbish Listen to the audio at 1.10 to 1.13 Controller asks PAT25 if CRJ in sight NO ANSWER Controller asks PAT25 to pass behind. NO ANSWER Dealt with. Subjects ATC CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
jonas64 January 31, 2025, 23:21:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818613	Quote: Originally Posted by GoWest Rubbish Listen to the audio at 1.10 to 1.13 Controller asks PAT25 if CRJ in sight NO ANSWER Controller asks PAT25 to pass behind. NO ANSWER Dealt with. Don't assume the audio the public has access to is the same as what the controller was hearing. The ATC audio archives from LiveATC are taken from ground stations, mostly operated by members of the public. It is far inferior in quality and reception to what the controllers are actually hearing. Subjects ATC CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 8 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
AirScotia January 31, 2025, 23:42:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818626	Quote: Originally Posted by GoWest Rubbish Listen to the audio at 1.10 to 1.13 Controller asks PAT25 if CRJ in sight NO ANSWER Controller asks PAT25 to pass behind. NO ANSWER Dealt with. There are several recordings - not all of them capture the helicopter frequency. This shows exactly the communications. The heli was told about the CRJ at 1200ft, going for 33. The heli said explicitly they had the plane in sight. 7:20 onwards. You Tube Subjects ATC CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
FullyFullyReady February 01, 2025, 00:18:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818645	Quote: Originally Posted by GoWest Rubbish Listen to the audio at 1.10 to 1.13 Controller asks PAT25 if CRJ in sight NO ANSWER Controller asks PAT25 to pass behind. NO ANSWER Dealt with. I believe the controller was working two frequencies (duplexed?), probably 119.1 and 134.35, so raw LiveATC recordings would only pick up one side of the conversation. The two traffic items probably didn't hear each other. Subjects ATC CRJ Frequency 119.1 Frequency 134.35 PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
51bravo February 06, 2025, 10:57:00 GMT permalink Post: 11822897	Quote: Originally Posted by Commando Cody Tower pointed out the CRJ twice and PAT25 affirmed they had traffic in sight and twice requested visual separation, which was approved. Controller did everything right. Question: In the last seconds: Controller instructed very firmly: "PAT25, pass behind the CRJ" There was no such readback, instead: PAT25: "PAT25 has CRJ in sight, request visual separation" Controller: "vis sep approved" Does the "request visual separation" undo the "pass behind"? (just trying to refresh my phraseology understanding, its long time passed, my PPL is not current a long time since) Subjects ATC CRJ PAT25 Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Phraseology (ATC) Separation (ALL) Traffic in Sight Visual Separation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
ATC Watcher August 11, 2025, 08:34:00 GMT permalink Post: 11936560	@ Sailvi767 : Are you suggesting that somehow the CRJ crew bears some responsibility in not acting on a TA and therefore bears some responsibility in this accident ? At least this is what I am making of your posting . If I am correct can you stop this discussion Remember journalists and possibly families members of those 2 pilots are watching too. To close that bit just read the CRJ CVR transcript () 47:29 : eGPWS : 500 hundred 47:35 : I got 2 whites and 2 red 47:37 : cool ( my note : so they were looking at the PAPI ) 47::40 : "Traffic traffic " ( my note : TA audio) 47:47 : TWR :" PAT 25 pass behind the CRJ " 47:55 : eGPWS : ...hundred .. 47:58 " Oh Sh!!!!! 47:59 : sound of impact . Subjects* CRJ Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 2 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Sailvi767 August 11, 2025, 17:19:00 GMT permalink Post: 11936840	Quote: Originally Posted by ATC Watcher @ Sailvi767 : Are you suggesting that somehow the CRJ crew bears some responsibility in not acting on a TA and therefore bears some responsibility in this accident ? At least this is what I am making of your posting . If I am correct can you stop this discussion Remember journalists and possibly families members of those 2 pilots are watching too. To close that bit just read the CRJ CVR transcript () 47:29 : eGPWS : 500 hundred 47:35 : I got 2 whites and 2 red 47:37 : cool ( my note : so they were looking at the PAPI ) 47::40 : "Traffic traffic " ( my note : TA audio) 47:47 : TWR :" PAT 25 pass behind the CRJ " 47:55 : eGPWS : ...hundred .. 47:58 " Oh Sh!!!!! 47:59 : sound of impact . As I posted on here before I had that exact same scenario happen to me on runway 33 in DCA. Traffic closing on a collision course on TCAS. Tower reported the traffic had us in sight. When the traffic closed to \xbd mile with no vector change apparent We went around from 400 feet. We never saw the traffic. Tower chewed my butt saying the traffic had us in sight. I didn\x92t care. Subjects* ATC CRJ DCA Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Pass Behind (PAT25) TCAS (All) Traffic in Sight Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 5 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

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