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Someone Somewhere
February 07, 2025, 14:59:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11823702
Originally Posted by DIBO
so that we are all on the same page:
Originally Posted by moosepileit
Only to Rwy 33, not Rwy 1. Yuge differenxe.
1.5Nm is longer than Rwy 1. Any traffic on the runways basically knocks out helicopters within a circle more or less encompassing Memorial Bridge, Capitol St Bridge, the sewage treatment plant, and Route 5. The approach paths to the two runways are pretty close together compared to a 1.5Nm separation.

Anything approaching Rwy 1 should be below ~700ft anywhere north of the sewage treatment marker; use the Wilson Bridge for a bit of headroom because not all aircraft are going to be perfectly on glideslope.

The river is far narrower than 1.5Nm so clearly a southbound helicopter on Route 4 can never cross a northbound aircraft approaching runway 1 north of the Wilson Bridge.

You'd have to hold a southbound helicopter north of either the Memorial or Capitol St Bridges until previous traffic had landed. Then have a sufficiently large gap with no arrivals (or departures until south of the runways) for the helicopter to reach the Wilson St Bridge before the next arrival crosses that bridge.

That's the preceding aircraft covering ~3Nm at 140kt (~80s), followed by the helicopter covering ~6Nm at ~100kt (another 3.5min), and accurately timing the next arrival so it doesn't cross the Wilson bridge until after the helicopter, or it needs to do a go-around.

Subjects Route 4  Route 5  Separation (ALL)

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moosepileit
February 07, 2025, 15:59:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11823731
Originally Posted by Someone Somewhere
1.5Nm is longer than Rwy 1. Any traffic on the runways basically knocks out helicopters within a circle more or less encompassing Memorial Bridge, Capitol St Bridge, the sewage treatment plant, and Route 5. The approach paths to the two runways are pretty close together compared to a 1.5Nm separation.

Anything approaching Rwy 1 should be below ~700ft anywhere north of the sewage treatment marker; use the Wilson Bridge for a bit of headroom because not all aircraft are going to be perfectly on glideslope.

The river is far narrower than 1.5Nm so clearly a southbound helicopter on Route 4 can never cross a northbound aircraft approaching runway 1 north of the Wilson Bridge.

You'd have to hold a southbound helicopter north of either the Memorial or Capitol St Bridges until previous traffic had landed. Then have a sufficiently large gap with no arrivals (or departures until south of the runways) for the helicopter to reach the Wilson St Bridge before the next arrival crosses that bridge.

That's the preceding aircraft covering ~3Nm at 140kt (~80s), followed by the helicopter covering ~6Nm at ~100kt (another 3.5min), and accurately timing the next arrival so it doesn't cross the Wilson bridge until after the helicopter, or it needs to do a go-around.

Hence the issue requiring metering the helicopters on the numbered Routes.

I don't suggest a hard 1.5NM, but anywhere standard fixed wing ops cannot assure 500' vertical separation, Rotary wing traffic must be gated and controlled.

If rotary wing mission dictates, then fixed wing traffic will have to wait/go missed/discontinue approach. Visual Sep, ATC and a Pavlovian environment killed an airliner.

Subjects ATC  Route 4  Route 5  Separation (ALL)  Vertical Separation

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LowObservable
February 28, 2025, 23:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11838199
28 Days Later
I don't know whether this has been updated farther up the thread, but there is still zero helicopter traffic on Route 5 (Fort Belvoir to Pentagon), whereof LO's Secret Lair has a commanding view. Damn few other helo movements either. Even the DCA Coastie Dolphins don't seem to be around that much and they are part of National Capital Region Air Defense.

Go-arounds at DCA are a daily occurrence (the Lair is smack underneath the flyout path), sometimes multiple.

Subjects DCA  Route 5

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LowObservable
March 09, 2025, 15:21:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11843970
Seems like Marine One is still the only helo allowed to fly around here, inside the Beltway at least. Route 5 (I-395 to the Pentagon) seems completely shut down.

Almost as if there was no safety case behind the PAT operation.

Subjects Route 5

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LowObservable
March 10, 2025, 20:46:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11844860
Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
In '05, no, but within the last three (four?) years, they got the Metro all the way to Dulles, with Reston and Herndon stops included.
For Low Observable: no, it's called "an overreaction"

Spoiler
 



- Military organizations and government organizations have a long history of doing stuff like that.
I'm sure your Mom thinks you're a world-class wit.

However, if you look at facts on the ground: Helos using Route 5 routinely followed I-395 and hooked around the east side of the Pentagon, which is closer to the RW15 piano keys than Route 4 is to RW33. Moreover, that stretch of roadway is elevated and has high-level lights, so the space under 200ft relative to river or runway level is that much tighter.
I also wonder how Route 5 traffic got tracked on DCA radar given high buildings and the Arlington ridge. .
Last edited by LowObservable; 10th March 2025 at 22:14 .

Subjects DCA  Radar  Route 4  Route 5

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BFSGrad
March 11, 2025, 03:45:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11845055
Originally Posted by LowObservable
Seems like Marine One is still the only helo allowed to fly around here, inside the Beltway at least. Route 5 (I-395 to the Pentagon) seems completely shut down.
It may seem that way but not the case. Any of the flight tracker programs show regular helicopter activity inside the Beltway with plenty of medical helo ops plus LEO ops (FFX, PG, DC, MSP, USCG). Even a few news helos. What does seem to have changed is PAT ops inside the Beltway, at least temporarily. Training flights have shifted outside the Beltway to a variety of locations, including Route 9. Two PAT flights today circumnavigated the Beltway.

Originally Posted by LowObservable
Almost as if there was no safety case behind the PAT operation.
Not sure what you mean by this comment. CW3 Roth interview explained the training requirement for Route 1/4 ops. Question is whether these training flights can be conducted safely. I think they can as long as ATC doesn\x92t delegate their primary responsibility for Class B separation. It is politically untenable to resume Route 1/4 PAT training flights at present. I suspect 12th AB and DCA ATC are reviewing their previous policy that VFR visual separation is safe along these routes.

Subjects ATC  DCA  Route 5  Route 9  Separation (ALL)  VFR  Visual Separation

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LowObservable
March 11, 2025, 22:29:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11845719
Here's something I find inexplicable, and relevant to the entire safety case around the mix of airplane and helo ops.

The chart shows the dotted routes connecting 1 and 5 to the Pentagon helipad. But much of the time, the PAT helos would fly the red line - as I observed earlier, over a raised highway with light poles, and cutting under the RW15 approach at about half the distance to the runway end.

I just base this on what I can see locally. I walk almost daily parallel to the rail line and it was no big deal to see the PATs following 395 around the east side of the building - but that's not where the chart says Route 5 is.

By the way a midair over 395 would put debris into a heavily used outdoor sports complex.

PS Observed two more go-arounds from RW18 this afternoon!



Subjects Route 5

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Stagformation
March 11, 2025, 23:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11845750
Originally Posted by LowObservable
Here's something I find inexplicable, and relevant to the entire safety case around the mix of airplane and helo ops.

The chart shows the dotted routes connecting 1 and 5 to the Pentagon helipad. But much of the time, the PAT helos would fly the red line - as I observed earlier, over a raised highway with light poles, and cutting under the RW15 approach at about half the distance to the runway end.

I just base this on what I can see locally. I walk almost daily parallel to the rail line and it was no big deal to see the PATs following 395 around the east side of the building - but that's not where the chart says Route 5 is.

By the way a midair over 395 would put debris into a heavily used outdoor sports complex.

PS Observed two more go-arounds from RW18 this afternoon!


https://www.airnav.com/airport/KJPN

FAA Information for KJPN, effective 20 Feb 2025, has amongst Additional Remarks:\x97

CAUTION - TFC PAT - KJPN EAST/WEST OPS. SPECIAL PRO TFC PAT. WHEN LDG W ALL ARR ACFT MAKE LEFT TFC CIRCLING THE PENTAGON AT OR BLW 200 FT. WHEN DEP E ALL ACFT MAKE RIGHT TFC CIRCLING THE PENTAGON AT OR BLW 200 FT

Subjects Route 5

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Stagformation
March 12, 2025, 10:40:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11846018
Originally Posted by LowObservable
Which is what they were not doing, at least on arrival. My vantage point for ops is about at the T on POWER PLANT on the map, so it was easy to see that the flightpath was east of the building.
Seems like the line you added on the chart is exactly what the Pentagon east/west arr/dep should look like. VFR helo Route 5 ends at Air Force Memorial and then it’s a transition route to Pentagon and Washington Monument. Helo traffic avoiding directly overflying the Pentagon.

One would hope traffic arriving/departing the Pentagon is coordinated tower to tower with DCA if traffic is approaching 15 and departing 33….
Last edited by Stagformation; 12th March 2025 at 10:51 .

Subjects DCA  Route 5  VFR

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LowObservable
March 12, 2025, 13:49:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11846223
Originally Posted by Stagformation
Seems like the line you added on the chart is exactly what the Pentagon east/west arr/dep should look like. VFR helo Route 5 ends at Air Force Memorial and then it’s a transition route to Pentagon and Washington Monument. Helo traffic avoiding directly overflying the Pentagon.

One would hope traffic arriving/departing the Pentagon is coordinated tower to tower with DCA if traffic is approaching 15 and departing 33….
But what about the arrowed line of the map to the west of the Pentagon, connecting Route 1 and Route 5? Isn't that the route the helipad, twice as far from the 15 piano keys?

One would definitely hope that traffic is coordinated. From my perspective (17th floor, facing east) the Route 5 traffic is just above the level of the Arlington Ridge treeline as it enters my FOV and is then masked by high-rises as it follows the red line over 395. The terrain and buildings are next to 395 so the 196-foot tower can't see over them. Using GE Pro it looks as if the helos are seconds from the 15 approach before the tower has line of sight to them.
Last edited by LowObservable; 12th March 2025 at 14:07 .

Subjects DCA  Route 5  VFR

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BFSGrad
March 12, 2025, 18:31:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11846383
Originally Posted by LowObservable
But what about the arrowed line of the map to the west of the Pentagon, connecting Route 1 and Route 5? Isn't that the route the helipad, twice as far from the 15 piano keys? One would definitely hope that traffic is coordinated.
Seems to be a misconception that a published helicopter route must allow for simultaneous ops with fixed wing traffic; e.g., JPN ops and runway 15 landing traffic. While 99% of the published DC helicopter routes are very likely to ensure deconfliction with fixed wing traffic, there are those trouble spots, one of which has recently been in the news. In the case of JPN and runway 15, the obvious answer is that ATC doesn\x92t permit helicopters to land or depart JPN if traffic is landing on runway 15. Or ATC doesn\x92t allow landing traffic for runway 15 while JPN is active.

Subjects ATC  Route 5

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LowObservable
March 12, 2025, 18:48:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11846398
Originally Posted by BFSGrad
Seems to be a misconception that a published helicopter route must allow for simultaneous ops with fixed wing traffic; e.g., JPN ops and runway 15 landing traffic. While 99% of the published DC helicopter routes are very likely to ensure deconfliction with fixed wing traffic, there are those trouble spots, one of which has recently been in the news. In the case of JPN and runway 15, the obvious answer is that ATC doesn\x92t permit helicopters to land or depart JPN if traffic is landing on runway 15. Or ATC doesn\x92t allow landing traffic for runway 15 while JPN is active.
Right. Can see that. But if Route 5 to JPN is active, then if ATC wants to use the 15 approach, it has to give enough notice for flights to be held at DAA... but the accident flight was turned on to 33 when it was on approach and that in itself didn't seem unusual. And in any case why are they not using the east-of-the-building path on the map?

Subjects ATC  Route 5

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LowObservable
March 31, 2025, 21:24:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11858201
Originally Posted by A0283
Another interesting point is that mixed heli and fixed wing is forbidden in the yellow zone (permanently), and ADSB mandatory in the red zone. With routes 4 and 6 cut.
The placement of the yellow line closes down the I-395/VA-110 left hook around the East side of the Pentagon that Route 5 inbound helos were using quite routinely before the accident. And whatever restrictions are or are not in place there is virtually nothing moving on Route 5, I guess the top brass has discovered Uber Black.

Subjects ADSB (All)  Route 5

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LowObservable
April 25, 2025, 21:45:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11873648
Related update: Although Route 5 is now technically open, the Secret Lair (to wit, home office directly overlooking the route) has observed no more than a couple of movements since the accident.
Also, note that it is now clearly marked that the flightpath is to the West of the Pentagon. One wonders what the reviewers thought of the Apocalypse Now hard-banking stunts around the east side of the building under the 15 approach.

Subjects Route 5

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LowObservable
April 29, 2025, 15:34:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11875483
People here and DEI frothers everywhere need to be asking one question:

If this is about one pilot and one operation, and about a single error 15 seconds before a collision on Route 4, why does Route 5 remain almost completely shut down , and not by the FAA?

I have 100% visual and audible on every Route 5 movement from The Lair, even if I'm not at my desk. Seen two operations since the accident.

I suspect that the answer is this: someone reporting to DoD leadership, not Army aviation, came in, took one look at the ops and ops standards, screamed WHISKEY THE ALFA FOXTROT and observed that it was sheer blind luck the accident hadn't happened earlier, and possibly on the 15 approach with a dozen or so teenage soccer players added to the casualty list.
Last edited by LowObservable; 29th April 2025 at 16:19 .

Subjects DEI  FAA  Route 4  Route 5

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BFSGrad
April 29, 2025, 17:04:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11875527
Originally Posted by LowObservable
... why does Route 5 remain almost completely shut down , and not by the FAA? I have 100% visual and audible on every Route 5 movement from The Lair, even if I'm not at my desk. Seen two operations since the accident.
It would appear that while DoD reevaluates its helicopter operations inside the Beltway, it has shifted training flights to outside the Beltway. The only exception appears to be the USCG MH65s as they are based at DCA but even those are now flying more outside the Beltway.

If Route 5 is not being used (and Route 4 is shutdown), how are military helicopters accessing JPN?

Prior to the DCA accident, I don\x92t know that I\x92d ever seen a UH-60 out my way on Route 9 in nearly 3 decades. Now PAT UH-60s are almost a daily occurrence on Route 9 (saw/heard 4 yesterday). The ADW-based UH-1Ns are also flying Route 9 more frequently.

I maintain the the DC helicopter routes (including Route 4) interior to the Beltway are not inherently unsafe if used with appropriate restrictions and ATC-applied separation.

Subjects DCA  FAA  Route 4  Route 5  Route 9  Separation (ALL)

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BFSGrad
May 03, 2025, 04:08:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11877511
Originally Posted by LowObservable
I know I have been bleating loudly about the visible practice of taking a route to the east of the Pentagon, but here's the latest.

Looks like someone did exactly that today, forcing two go-arounds.
Quick take after looking at ADS-B data and listening to some LiveATC:

DCA LC helicopter and fixed wing positions were combined (Bueller? Bueller?)

PAT23 was a Gold Top (Mike) UH-60

PAT23 was issued two holds along Route 5: (1st) 3 mi W of DCA, and (2nd) at \x93Glebe\x94

LC then cleared PAT23 from \x93Glebe\x94 along Route 5 to the Pentagon

LC made multiple requests to PAT23 to report landing assured. It seemed to take an unusually long time for PAT23 to get to the JPN landing pad. Unclear why PAT23 (and apparently other helicopters) fly counter-clockwise; i.e., continue to follow 395 S of Pentagon (past south parking), then turn N to follow 110 (past the Metro entrance) to the JPN landing pad. Why not use the charted transition route along 27/Washington Blvd?

LC seemed unclear of PAT23\x92s position. At one point directed PAT23 to fly westbound while PAT23 appeared to be landing.

Both DAL1671 and RPA5825 go-arounds were LC directed. No pilot reports of TCAS RA heard. After checking in with departure/approach, PCT didn\x92t request reason for go-around and pilots made no comment about go-around.

Subjects ADSB (All)  DCA  PAT23  Route 5  TCAS (All)  TCAS RA

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LowObservable
May 24, 2025, 15:13:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11889642
Apols for the crude graphic. But this shows the relative location of Route 5 (along I-395), the Pentagon, the DCA tower, and the Pentagon city cluster of high-rises including the new Amazon HQ2. At the altitude the helo was flying, it would be largely masked from the tower. explaining why they "didn't have a good fix".

It would also be good to know who was on board that helicopter and why it was Pete Hairgelseth.


Subjects DCA  Route 5

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LowObservable
January 29, 2026, 00:17:00 GMT
permalink Post: 12028883
Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3
From FAA website (verbatim):

Discontinued take offs from the Pentagon until the FAA and Department of War updated procedures and fixed technical issues at the Pentagon Heliport
.
This includes Route 5 along I-395, where helos were routinely flown at altitudes that masked them from the DCA tower and regularly flew outside the authorized route, on the east side of the Pentagon reservation, under the RWR 15 approach. Those ops were flown multiple times per day.

Subjects DCA  FAA  Route 5

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