Thread Moderation Page: 1 of 1

Pilot DAR
January 31, 2025, 13:07:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818187

Quote:

I know the mods don't want this to descent into politics,

Yes, thanks for recalling this request. The moderators have had a background discussion about this situation, and agreed to stand by the exclusion of political discussion as is the policy of PPRuNe. That said, this accident, and the investigation and introspection to come are going to run the ragged edge of political discussion. We want the aviation safety discussion, we don't want it lost in discussion and emotion about politics - we just don't have the page space! (and it's a lot of work to moderate!).

Posts referencing actual facts, reported from authoritative sources, and primarily on the topic of the accident, the investigation, and associated safety are welcomed here. If in doubt, just leave out the political part of what you're thinking to write, we all know that you have an opinion, we don't need to read it here. If your post touches to role of a government official as a factor of the event, without inflaming discussion, the moderation team will do it's best to find a favourable interpretation.

Thanks for working with the moderation team on this...

Pilot DAR

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visibility3miles
January 31, 2025, 16:06:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818320

Note/apologies to moderators: As a private pilot who doesn’t even fly anymore, I normally wouldn’t contribute to a thread like this, but I live in the great Washington, DC, area, so I know what the weather was like (very clear, visibility 26 miles, low wind, warming up after a very cold cold snap, the ice on the river was breaking up..) I’ve been to Hains point and the park across the river due south of the airport, as well as flying in and out of DCA as a pax, etc., etc.

BTW, the Potomac River is subject to sea tides by the airport, so that can’t help in the recovery, plus it was carrying a lot of melted snow at the time, adding to the cold and volume.

It’s been on the news 24/7 around here.

Anyway, there are a few stories in the Washington Post that might be of interest, or completely irrelevant:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md...eagan-airport/

Quote:

Ari Schulman, a reporter in D.C., was driving home to Alexandria along the George Washington Memorial Parkway — which passes Reagan National Airport — when he said he witnessed an explosion that he now believes was the plane and helicopter that collided Wednesday.

Schulman said he saw sparks spreading along the plane, nose to tail, as the aircraft banked sharply to the right.

“I couldn’t make sense of what I saw because it didn’t seem like they were coming directly out of the plane,” Schulman said. “They were underneath its belly and separated a little distance.” Schulman, who said he has reported on plane crashes but never seen one up close, was shaken by the experience. “I pray that there are many survivors,” he said.

He shared a detailed description of what he saw on X

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md...potomac-river/

Quote:

Two of Reagan National Airport’s air traffic controllers were doing double duty Wednesday night.

… On Wednesday evening, the position of helicopter controller — a role typically staffed until 9:30 p.m. — had been combined ahead of the crash with that of local controller, according to the report. Doubling up those roles can create challenges for an air traffic controller, especially if the airspace is busy. The roles use different radio frequencies, and airplane pilots and helicopter pilots cannot necessarily hear each other even if they’re both in touch with the tower.

P.S., Apparently the helicopter controller had to leave early that evening, but it was considered a slow time, so was allowed without someone else being called in.

Subjects ATC DCA Thread Moderation

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T28B
February 01, 2025, 03:14:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818731

I shall remind you all again, as Pilot DAR has already reminded you all: keep the politics out of this.
If you can't post professionally on the aviation matters to hand, then don't post.

Whether or not the FAA has, or has not, fulfilled it's role is a functional, not political, matter if you can be bothered to constrain yourselves to the functional aspects of regulation.

You will not be warned again.

EDITED this post due to a link problem:
AA5342 Down DCA

Quote:

The moderators have had a background discussion about this situation, and agreed to stand by the exclusion of political discussion as is the policy of PPRuNe. That said, this accident, and the investigation and introspection to come are going to run the ragged edge of political discussion. We want the aviation safety discussion, we don't want it lost in discussion and emotion about politics - we just don't have the page space! (and it's a lot of work to moderate!).

Posts referencing actual facts, reported from authoritative sources, and primarily on the topic of the accident, the investigation, and associated safety are welcomed here. If in doubt, just leave out the political part of what you're thinking to write, we all know that you have an opinion, we don't need to read it here. If your post touches to role of a government official as a factor of the event, without inflaming discussion, the moderation team will do it's best to find a favourable interpretation.

Thanks for working with the moderation team on this...

Pilot DAR

Carry on.

Last edited by T28B; 2nd February 2025 at 19:01 . Reason: link problem required an edit

Subjects AA5342 DCA FAA Thread Moderation

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A0283
February 01, 2025, 11:42:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818954

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buswinker

Does anyone know anything of the background of the lead investigator (Brice Banning)?
\x85

Yesterday Bill Inman was the \x93Board member on site. \x93 He gave the conference. Mrs Homendy was working behind the scenes. Mr Inman was joined by a few NTSB persons but these were not introduced by name. No IIC name was forwarded. Suppose that becomes clear in the next few days.

The location of the crash gives the much discussed \x93midair accidents waiting to happen\x94 immediate exposure to Congress. It was reported that Congress had already started its own investigation.

So next to one NTSB, two military and one Congressional investigation we appear to have already four investigations running in parallel. Plus whitehouse statements on events and investigation.

Hope Pprune moderators can keep us informed about what is within scope of our exchanges here.
Just thinking \x85 Maybe an idea to focus on factual, not using words like blame etc, so in line with Annex 13.
For me information from a congressional hearing will be part factual and part political.

Subjects NTSB NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy Thread Moderation

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Buswinker
February 01, 2025, 12:30:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818992

Quote:

Originally Posted by A0283

he was named at the very start of the very first press conference (standing on the far left of the screen)

Subjects NTSB NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy Thread Moderation

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T28B
February 02, 2025, 19:09:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11820017

Greetings, esteemed colleagues.
Before Monday arrives and the posting rate increases, I will repeat the guidance that Pilot DAR provided a few days ago.

Quote:

AA5342 Down DCA

The moderators have had a background discussion about this situation, and agreed to stand by the exclusion of political discussion as is the policy of PPRuNe. That said, this accident, and the investigation and introspection to come are going to run the ragged edge of political discussion. We want the aviation safety discussion, we don't want it lost in discussion and emotion about politics - we just don't have the page space! (and it's a lot of work to moderate!).

Posts referencing actual facts, reported from authoritative sources, and primarily on the topic of the accident, the investigation, and associated safety are welcomed here. If in doubt, just leave out the political part of what you're thinking to write, we all know that you have an opinion, we don't need to read it here. If your post touches to role of a government official as a factor of the event, without inflaming discussion, the moderation team will do it's best to find a favourable interpretation.

Thanks for working with the moderation team on this...

Pilot DAR

I will offer one further point of guidance:

If you are (as many PPRuNe members are) a fixed wing civil aviator, or air transport pilot, I'll ask you not to post about (1) helicopter operations and (2) military flying unless you also have experience in both of those areas of endeavor that relates to this tragic accident. There are a number of our members who have that experience, so let's not let our noise drown out their signal.

We've had to remove some noise. I have received a few well founded complaints about the uninformed commentary about both rotary wing flying, and military flying.

Please do not play the role of the sciolist, but instead speak from your own actual professional experience and knowledge. If you have something to critique about the mixing of helicopter and fixed wing operations at and around civil airports, please be temperate and professional in your language.

Thank you all in advance for your cooperation in keeping this discussion professional.

Subjects AA5342 DCA Thread Moderation

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23 recorded likes for this post.

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Wide Mouth Frog
February 06, 2025, 14:55:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11823034

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torquetalk

Now, if the article made that point clearly, and did not concern itself with:

The promise of Elon Musk\x92s DOGE
DEI
Democrats blocking privatization legilsation
Donald Trump sorting it out
etc etc

\x85then I would see what you mean.

But as it was a blatantly political article that did not focus at all on the key things that are pretty much obvious as causal from this discussion, then it is surely just a distraction to serious discussion in this thread.

The controller does not appear to have done anything wrong, so what have DEI policies to do with the ATC side of this accident?
The passenger aircraft followed a procedure and got hit, so what bit of the federal bloat caused that?
The 2-crew helicopter apparently never properly identified the aircraft they were supposed to avoid visually. You going to really argue that the DEI or the government caused that?

Unsafe procedures caused this. SASess, please take the ridiculous politics to Jet Blast.

Ah. I hoped I wouldn't have to spell this out explicitly, not least because the moderators may well take the view that this is straying into political territory. The very best thing about this article is that it is artfully cloaked in terminology that might entice the incumbent powers to engage.

Subjects ATC DEI President Donald Trump Thread Moderation

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Pilot DAR January 31, 2025, 13:07:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818187	Quote: I know the mods don't want this to descent into politics, Yes, thanks for recalling this request. The moderators have had a background discussion about this situation, and agreed to stand by the exclusion of political discussion as is the policy of PPRuNe. That said, this accident, and the investigation and introspection to come are going to run the ragged edge of political discussion. We want the aviation safety discussion, we don't want it lost in discussion and emotion about politics - we just don't have the page space! (and it's a lot of work to moderate!). Posts referencing actual facts, reported from authoritative sources, and primarily on the topic of the accident, the investigation, and associated safety are welcomed here. If in doubt, just leave out the political part of what you're thinking to write, we all know that you have an opinion, we don't need to read it here. If your post touches to role of a government official as a factor of the event, without inflaming discussion, the moderation team will do it's best to find a favourable interpretation. Thanks for working with the moderation team on this... Pilot DAR Subjects Thread Moderation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 25 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
visibility3miles January 31, 2025, 16:06:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818320	Note/apologies to moderators: As a private pilot who doesn’t even fly anymore, I normally wouldn’t contribute to a thread like this, but I live in the great Washington, DC, area, so I know what the weather was like (very clear, visibility 26 miles, low wind, warming up after a very cold cold snap, the ice on the river was breaking up..) I’ve been to Hains point and the park across the river due south of the airport, as well as flying in and out of DCA as a pax, etc., etc. BTW, the Potomac River is subject to sea tides by the airport, so that can’t help in the recovery, plus it was carrying a lot of melted snow at the time, adding to the cold and volume. It’s been on the news 24/7 around here. Anyway, there are a few stories in the Washington Post that might be of interest, or completely irrelevant: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md...eagan-airport/ Quote: Ari Schulman, a reporter in D.C., was driving home to Alexandria along the George Washington Memorial Parkway — which passes Reagan National Airport — when he said he witnessed an explosion that he now believes was the plane and helicopter that collided Wednesday. Schulman said he saw sparks spreading along the plane, nose to tail, as the aircraft banked sharply to the right. “I couldn’t make sense of what I saw because it didn’t seem like they were coming directly out of the plane,” Schulman said. “They were underneath its belly and separated a little distance.” Schulman, who said he has reported on plane crashes but never seen one up close, was shaken by the experience. “I pray that there are many survivors,” he said. He shared a detailed description of what he saw on X https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md...potomac-river/ Quote: Two of Reagan National Airport’s air traffic controllers were doing double duty Wednesday night. … On Wednesday evening, the position of helicopter controller — a role typically staffed until 9:30 p.m. — had been combined ahead of the crash with that of local controller, according to the report. Doubling up those roles can create challenges for an air traffic controller, especially if the airspace is busy. The roles use different radio frequencies, and airplane pilots and helicopter pilots cannot necessarily hear each other even if they’re both in touch with the tower. P.S., Apparently the helicopter controller had to leave early that evening, but it was considered a slow time, so was allowed without someone else being called in. Subjects ATC DCA Thread Moderation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
T28B February 01, 2025, 03:14:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818731	I shall remind you all again, as Pilot DAR has already reminded you all: keep the politics out of this. If you can't post professionally on the aviation matters to hand, then don't post. Whether or not the FAA has, or has not, fulfilled it's role is a functional, not political, matter if you can be bothered to constrain yourselves to the functional aspects of regulation. You will not be warned again. EDITED this post due to a link problem: AA5342 Down DCA Quote: The moderators have had a background discussion about this situation, and agreed to stand by the exclusion of political discussion as is the policy of PPRuNe. That said, this accident, and the investigation and introspection to come are going to run the ragged edge of political discussion. We want the aviation safety discussion, we don't want it lost in discussion and emotion about politics - we just don't have the page space! (and it's a lot of work to moderate!). Posts referencing actual facts, reported from authoritative sources, and primarily on the topic of the accident, the investigation, and associated safety are welcomed here. If in doubt, just leave out the political part of what you're thinking to write, we all know that you have an opinion, we don't need to read it here. If your post touches to role of a government official as a factor of the event, without inflaming discussion, the moderation team will do it's best to find a favourable interpretation. Thanks for working with the moderation team on this... Pilot DAR Carry on. Last edited by T28B; 2nd February 2025 at 19:01 . Reason: link problem required an edit Subjects AA5342 DCA FAA Thread Moderation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
A0283 February 01, 2025, 11:42:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818954	Quote: Originally Posted by Buswinker Does anyone know anything of the background of the lead investigator (Brice Banning)? \x85 Yesterday Bill Inman was the \x93Board member on site. \x93 He gave the conference. Mrs Homendy was working behind the scenes. Mr Inman was joined by a few NTSB persons but these were not introduced by name. No IIC name was forwarded. Suppose that becomes clear in the next few days. The location of the crash gives the much discussed \x93midair accidents waiting to happen\x94 immediate exposure to Congress. It was reported that Congress had already started its own investigation. So next to one NTSB, two military and one Congressional investigation we appear to have already four investigations running in parallel. Plus whitehouse statements on events and investigation. Hope Pprune moderators can keep us informed about what is within scope of our exchanges here. Just thinking \x85 Maybe an idea to focus on factual, not using words like blame etc, so in line with Annex 13. For me information from a congressional hearing will be part factual and part political. Subjects NTSB NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy Thread Moderation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Buswinker February 01, 2025, 12:30:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818992	Quote: Originally Posted by A0283 Yesterday Bill Inman was the \x93Board member on site. \x93 He gave the conference. Mrs Homendy was working behind the scenes. Mr Inman was joined by a few NTSB persons but these were not introduced by name. No IIC name was forwarded. Suppose that becomes clear in the next few days. The location of the crash gives the much discussed \x93midair accidents waiting to happen\x94 immediate exposure to Congress. It was reported that Congress had already started its own investigation. So next to one NTSB, two military and one Congressional investigation we appear to have already four investigations running in parallel. Plus whitehouse statements on events and investigation. Hope Pprune moderators can keep us informed about what is within scope of our exchanges here. Just thinking \x85 Maybe an idea to focus on factual, not using words like blame etc, so in line with Annex 13. For me information from a congressional hearing will be part factual and part political. he was named at the very start of the very first press conference (standing on the far left of the screen) You Tube Subjects NTSB NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy Thread Moderation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
T28B February 02, 2025, 19:09:00 GMT permalink Post: 11820017	Greetings, esteemed colleagues. Before Monday arrives and the posting rate increases, I will repeat the guidance that Pilot DAR provided a few days ago. Quote: AA5342 Down DCA The moderators have had a background discussion about this situation, and agreed to stand by the exclusion of political discussion as is the policy of PPRuNe. That said, this accident, and the investigation and introspection to come are going to run the ragged edge of political discussion. We want the aviation safety discussion, we don't want it lost in discussion and emotion about politics - we just don't have the page space! (and it's a lot of work to moderate!). Posts referencing actual facts, reported from authoritative sources, and primarily on the topic of the accident, the investigation, and associated safety are welcomed here. If in doubt, just leave out the political part of what you're thinking to write, we all know that you have an opinion, we don't need to read it here. If your post touches to role of a government official as a factor of the event, without inflaming discussion, the moderation team will do it's best to find a favourable interpretation. Thanks for working with the moderation team on this... Pilot DAR I will offer one further point of guidance: If you are (as many PPRuNe members are) a fixed wing civil aviator, or air transport pilot, I'll ask you not to post about (1) helicopter operations and (2) military flying unless you also have experience in both of those areas of endeavor that relates to this tragic accident. There are a number of our members who have that experience, so let's not let our noise drown out their signal. We've had to remove some noise. I have received a few well founded complaints about the uninformed commentary about both rotary wing flying, and military flying. Please do not play the role of the sciolist, but instead speak from your own actual professional experience and knowledge. If you have something to critique about the mixing of helicopter and fixed wing operations at and around civil airports, please be temperate and professional in your language. Thank you all in advance for your cooperation in keeping this discussion professional. Subjects AA5342 DCA Thread Moderation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 23 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Wide Mouth Frog February 06, 2025, 14:55:00 GMT permalink Post: 11823034	Quote: Originally Posted by Torquetalk Now, if the article made that point clearly, and did not concern itself with: The promise of Elon Musk\x92s DOGE DEI Democrats blocking privatization legilsation Donald Trump sorting it out etc etc \x85then I would see what you mean. But as it was a blatantly political article that did not focus at all on the key things that are pretty much obvious as causal from this discussion, then it is surely just a distraction to serious discussion in this thread. The controller does not appear to have done anything wrong, so what have DEI policies to do with the ATC side of this accident? The passenger aircraft followed a procedure and got hit, so what bit of the federal bloat caused that? The 2-crew helicopter apparently never properly identified the aircraft they were supposed to avoid visually. You going to really argue that the DEI or the government caused that? Unsafe procedures caused this. SASess, please take the ridiculous politics to Jet Blast. Ah. I hoped I wouldn't have to spell this out explicitly, not least because the moderators may well take the view that this is straying into political territory. The very best thing about this article is that it is artfully cloaked in terminology that might entice the incumbent powers to engage. Subjects ATC DEI President Donald Trump Thread Moderation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

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