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| 51bravo
January 31, 2025, 15:42:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818302 |
There was an AAL 3130 just behind (though an A319, but in the dark...!). Could PAT5 have picked that one as the CRJ? How many more lights in the sky at that time to pick one as your "CRJ"?
Subjects
CRJ
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| 51bravo
February 03, 2025, 11:08:00 GMT permalink Post: 11820420 |
patrickal, very good argumentation! I have though one question, which was highlighted also some pages before but I didnt register an answer:
8. ATC informs PAT25 of the conflicting aircraft on approach for RWY 33 at 1200 feet MSL, but at the time, PAT25 is heading almost due east towards the Jefferson Memorial on Helo Route 4 while JIA342 (the CRJ) is executing its right turn departing from the RWY 01 approach and is now heading in a northeast direction as it prepares to make a hard left onto the RWY 33 short final approach. From their respective positions, PAT25 in all likelihood sees the landing lights of AA3130 which is trailing JIA342 and whose landing lights are pointed almost directly in his direction, and mistakenly identifies it as the aircraft approaching RWY 33. At no time does it appear that ATC notifies JIA342 of the conflicting helo traffic. They are most likely focused on their approach to RWY 33, which was just handed to them.
9. As JIA342 rolls out of its left hand turn to final on RWY 33, completing the deviation they were just handed and had not briefed for, it is now approaching the 9-11 o\x92clock position of PAT25. Since the pilot of PAT25 is on the right-hand side of the Blackhawk, visibility of the CRJ may be limited. Both pilots of PAT25 are now most likely visibly fixated on passing to the rear of AA3130, which is in their 1-3 O\x92clock position, and which is the conflicting aircraft they perceive as the one ATC initially warned them about. Subjects
ATC
Blackhawk (H-60)
CRJ
DCA
Night Vision Goggles (NVG)
PAT25
Route 4
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| 51bravo
February 03, 2025, 11:32:00 GMT permalink Post: 11820440 |
You have not fully understood. In your world, ATC would not give any instructions to the helicopter, becauuse that 150ft was OK as separation minima. Instead in this world ATC relied (by request and reply) on the helicopter to identify visually the conflict, take the deconfliction in its own hands and adjust his flight path horizontally such that it places them well behind the CRJ (and its wakes). I.e. left turn towards the city and then once CRJ passes your 4 o'clock return to the river corridor by own navigation. Now thats the 2D view. At 200ft-max altitude you dont turn at night from the river towards the city to position yourself east of, and then behind the CRJ on the 1 mile final...so what-else? Subjects
ATC
CRJ
Separation (ALL)
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| 51bravo
February 04, 2025, 15:02:00 GMT permalink Post: 11821488 |
NTSB on CVR recordings as I understand - however read from a paper:
remarkable: begin of pitch up 1 sec before impact (CRJ). Subjects
CRJ
NTSB
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| 51bravo
February 06, 2025, 10:57:00 GMT permalink Post: 11822897 |
Controller instructed very firmly: "PAT25, pass behind the CRJ" There was no such readback, instead: PAT25: "PAT25 has CRJ in sight, request visual separation" Controller: "vis sep approved" Does the "request visual separation" undo the "pass behind"? (just trying to refresh my phraseology understanding, its long time passed, my PPL is not current a long time since) Subjects
ATC
CRJ
PAT25
Pass Behind
Pass Behind (All)
Pass Behind (PAT25)
Phraseology (ATC)
Separation (ALL)
Traffic in Sight
Visual Separation
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| 51bravo
February 07, 2025, 11:55:00 GMT permalink Post: 11823592 |
The original NYT article thanks to the
Internet Archive (archive.org)
.
Regarding to the Pavlovian - if PAL25 wouldnt have requested 'visual separation', what "punishment" would they expect from the Tower? Orbit(s)? Vectors? Or somethin wild, considering 200/300' altitude limits along the river and buildings/infrastructure left and right (what diameter would an orbit cost with a Blackhawk, is it feasible over black water at 200')? Therefore I am asking - would a non-request of a 'visual separation' mean major complications to such a helicopter at night? That as well would then be a significant flaw in the design. Subjects
AA5342
Blackhawk (H-60)
CRJ
New York Times
Separation (ALL)
Visual Separation
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| 51bravo
February 07, 2025, 13:24:00 GMT permalink Post: 11823651 |
"wait" , for sure.
How? considering where they have been at the first briefing about the conflict, just about entering Washington Channel ? I have learned here: speed around 90kt min, when orbiting hovering not a safe option at night over black water (despite lights left and right and everywhere else) Washington Channel: 200 yards wide plus golf course and Potomac: less 1 mile wide runway ends 01 and 15 city to the left with stadions etc. I really run out of an idea what ATC would clear if the PAT25 crew didnt ask for "visual separation"... Last edited by 51bravo; 7th February 2025 at 13:42 . Subjects
ATC
PAT25
Separation (ALL)
Visual Separation
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| 51bravo
March 05, 2025, 15:33:00 GMT permalink Post: 11841346 |
If they would get the "pass behind", they would have waited for some illuminated object to pass from left to right before crossing that runway extension line. But they happily entered the final approach 33 sector as if they didnt expect any landing traffic at all on 33. In fact they decided to cross BEFORE, since "their traffic" seemed to be still very early in the circling procedure and in visual contact 3-4 miles on the nose.
Subjects
Pass Behind
Pass Behind (All)
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