Equivocal Page: 1 of 1

Equivocal
January 30, 2025, 12:31:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817189

From the comments on this thread, it seems like many are unclear about flight rules and responsibilities of pilots and ATC. I'm not suggesting that the rules are good or applied in an appropriate way but, simply, the rules are clear....even if understanding is not.

Subjects ATC

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Equivocal
February 04, 2025, 00:44:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11821056

Quote:

Suggested policies for review in the investigation

So, you mean make it like home?

There are many comments in this thread which say procedure X should not be allowed. The procedures that were applied by ATC immediately before the accident are \x91standard\x92 and used the world over. None are intrinsically unsafe but their application (as with all the other rules that need to be followed) needs to be appropriate. Visual separation at night is likely to be fine on a clear night with just two or three aircraft in the sky but, as others have pointed out, it\x92s not in any way appropriate in high traffic density environments. Just because there\x92s a rule that says you can do something doesn\x92t mean it\x92s necessarily a good idea.

Subjects ATC Separation (ALL) Visual Separation

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Equivocal
August 09, 2025, 20:22:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11935887

Quote:

Originally Posted by gala[color=#222222

xy flyer[/color] Additionally, the USAF is very specific that in civil airspace we will comply with ICAO SARP s, FAA regulations or any bilatera agreements in place.

Thanks for raising a smile on an otherwise dull day!

Subjects FAA ICAO

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Equivocal
August 13, 2025, 12:36:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11937793

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

Are there procedures published? If Yes, was everybody following those procedures?

If Yes, no normalisation of deviance. The procedures themselves were/are flawed, not the execution of them.

If No, then there's normalisation of deviance. The users are not following the procedures and if those procedures have been in place for some time, the users have been "getting away with it" ie NoD until now.

Not necessarily as simple as that. As I opined much earlier in this thread, there may be nothing fundamentally wrong with the procedures in themselves - they stem from international standards and variations are used the world over. But the procedures need to be applied in appropriate circumstances in an appropriate manner. The normalisation of deviance, if involved, may have been the application of the procedures by people untrained/unaware of when it might (or might not) be appropriate to use them.

Subjects: None

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Equivocal
August 14, 2025, 22:06:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11938639

Quote:

However it appears that the use of this \x93procedure\x94 was left to the discretion of the individual controller.

You say this like it's a problem. Putting to one side whether it was formalised or informal, controllers apply their discretion all the time. There is often more than one way to separate (or whatever) two aircraft and the controller will apply their preferred solution or what best suits the situation. For example, when applying reduction in separation minima in the vicinity of the aerodrome, which is at the root of this accident, I might not have used the option to allow a pilot to maintain his/her separation based on how competent they sounded on the RTF, or how well they had coped with understanding and complying with instructions so far.

Subjects ATC Separation (ALL)

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Equivocal
January 27, 2026, 23:50:00 GMT
permalink Post: 12028296

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTSB

The NTSB determines that the probable cause of this accident was the FAA's placement of a helicopter route in close proximity to a runway approach path.

I haven't read the report yet but if this is what it concludes, it looks like it's going to be a disappointing read. Aircraft move around and it's not possible to design routes that never intersect....in an environment such as the one in question, ATC should be authorising the aircraft to follow specific routes only when the requisite separation will exist. As I mentioned much earlier in the thread, t he procedures that were applied by ATC immediately before the accident are ‘standard’ and used the world over. None are intrinsically unsafe but their application (as with all the other rules that need to be followed) needs to be appropriate. Visual separation at night is likely to be fine on a clear night with just two or three aircraft in the sky but it’s unlikely to be in any way appropriate in high traffic density environments. Just because there’s a rule that says you can do something doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a good idea. You can have a helicopter route as close to an approach path (or any other route) just as long as you don't allow a helicopter and another aircraft to be in the same place at the same time. Whilst the other mentioned causal and contributory factors are all going to be valid up to a point, fundamentally, the FAA permitted inappropriate application of completely suitable procedures. How and why this situation was allowed to prevail is, I hope, discussed in detail in the report even if it didn't make it into the Probable Cause statement.

Subjects ATC FAA NTSB Probable Cause Separation (ALL) Visual Separation

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