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LowObservable
January 30, 2025, 09:16:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817030

I live near there. Most days I walk within sight of the Pentagon and DCA. I have full view from my Secret Lair of the helo traffic on the other main route from Fort Belvoir to the Pentagon, northeast along 395.

I suspect that this is either going to be one of those "we have been playing Russian Roulette for decades" investigations, or a normalization-of-deviance/boiled frog issue where a difficult situation has been made worse over time.

Factors in the boiled-frog situation would be more use of 15/33 as RJs have become more prevalent; not well regulated growth in helicopter traffic to the Pentagon; and a lot more lighting in the area.

DCA generally is a complex traffic situation with very regular go-arounds (the standard fly-out path is over my building so I hear them). I saw an RJ missing an approach to 15 just yesterday.

But one thing that I'm thinking now: there is no way in hell that a civilian heliport as busy as the Pentagon would be allowed 1,000 yards from a very busy final approach to an airport.

Last edited by LowObservable; 30th January 2025 at 10:03 .

Subjects DCA

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LowObservable
January 30, 2025, 15:24:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817326

FWIW, Hegseth was just on video and said that the crew had NVGs. Not whether they were using them or whether their use is standard/required for night ops around DC.

Subjects Night Vision Goggles (NVG)

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LowObservable
January 30, 2025, 16:20:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817366

Agreed, nobody should be using NVGs. That's why I qualified what Hegseth said. FWIW he also said it was an annual qualification check rather than training per se.

Subjects Night Vision Goggles (NVG)

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LowObservable
January 30, 2025, 16:22:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817371

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lascaille

Because presumably military helicopters are sometimes going to do what they need to do and may not be able to check in with ATC.

Providing a conflict-free path for them to do that is the most consistent solution.

However the ultimate issue is traffic density, and the control workarounds (that have been discussed at great length upthread) that the US has normalised to shoehorn huge movement numbers into tiny spaces.

This is probably one of those situations where there should be a military/very limited commercial use airport in the current location and the 'real' airport should be hanging off the end of a high-speed rail line about 50 miles away q.v. Hong Kong.

We have two of those (with slow rail links), but the one thing you never hear anyone say in Washington is "hey, it's $30 cheaper out of Dulles".

Subjects ATC

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LowObservable
January 30, 2025, 20:12:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817613

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdracer

At the risk of adding more politics to this, I've read elsewhere (more than once) that the only reason Reagan National hasn't been closed years ago is because the various politicians in DC want the convenience of the close by airport (instead of having to travel out to Dulles).
IF this is a case of 'stuff happens' and not someone's serious error, maybe it's time to put human lives above the convenience of some politicians and close this airport.

That's a little over the top. DCA was at one time slated for closure with all traffic going to Dulles, and that was opposed by politicians, but it remains open today because people find it useful, and because aircraft are much quieter than they were in those days.

DCA should not be inherently dangerous to operate. It does work under 9/11-legacy restrictions that make it harder to use than it should be and that should be reviewed at such time as the US has a non-lunatic government. But I suspect that a root cause in this tragedy will be the expansion of military helicopter traffic and the Pentagon's insistence on maintaining two routes out of central DC, one down 395 and the other down the Potomac. There will be questions too if the collision was well above the 200-foot limit on the helo corridor. There is no way that a busy civilian heliport would be tolerated so close to a flightpath.

Subjects DCA

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LowObservable
February 28, 2025, 23:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11838199

28 Days Later

I don't know whether this has been updated farther up the thread, but there is still zero helicopter traffic on Route 5 (Fort Belvoir to Pentagon), whereof LO's Secret Lair has a commanding view. Damn few other helo movements either. Even the DCA Coastie Dolphins don't seem to be around that much and they are part of National Capital Region Air Defense.

Go-arounds at DCA are a daily occurrence (the Lair is smack underneath the flyout path), sometimes multiple.

Subjects DCA Route 5

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LowObservable
March 09, 2025, 15:21:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11843970

Seems like Marine One is still the only helo allowed to fly around here, inside the Beltway at least. Route 5 (I-395 to the Pentagon) seems completely shut down.

Almost as if there was no safety case behind the PAT operation.

Subjects Route 5

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LowObservable
March 10, 2025, 20:46:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11844860

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50

In '05, no, but within the last three (four?) years, they got the Metro all the way to Dulles, with Reston and Herndon stops included.
For Low Observable: no, it's called "an overreaction"

Spoiler

- Military organizations and government organizations have a long history of doing stuff like that.

I'm sure your Mom thinks you're a world-class wit.

However, if you look at facts on the ground: Helos using Route 5 routinely followed I-395 and hooked around the east side of the Pentagon, which is closer to the RW15 piano keys than Route 4 is to RW33. Moreover, that stretch of roadway is elevated and has high-level lights, so the space under 200ft relative to river or runway level is that much tighter.
I also wonder how Route 5 traffic got tracked on DCA radar given high buildings and the Arlington ridge. .

Last edited by LowObservable; 10th March 2025 at 22:14 .

Subjects DCA Radar Route 4 Route 5

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LowObservable
March 11, 2025, 22:29:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11845719

Here's something I find inexplicable, and relevant to the entire safety case around the mix of airplane and helo ops.

The chart shows the dotted routes connecting 1 and 5 to the Pentagon helipad. But much of the time, the PAT helos would fly the red line - as I observed earlier, over a raised highway with light poles, and cutting under the RW15 approach at about half the distance to the runway end.

I just base this on what I can see locally. I walk almost daily parallel to the rail line and it was no big deal to see the PATs following 395 around the east side of the building - but that's not where the chart says Route 5 is.

By the way a midair over 395 would put debris into a heavily used outdoor sports complex.

PS Observed two more go-arounds from RW18 this afternoon!

Subjects Route 5

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LowObservable
March 12, 2025, 02:11:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11845835

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stagformation

https://www.airnav.com/airport/KJPN

FAA Information for KJPN, effective 20 Feb 2025, has amongst Additional Remarks:—

CAUTION - TFC PAT - KJPN EAST/WEST OPS. SPECIAL PRO TFC PAT. WHEN LDG W ALL ARR ACFT MAKE LEFT TFC CIRCLING THE PENTAGON AT OR BLW 200 FT. WHEN DEP E ALL ACFT MAKE RIGHT TFC CIRCLING THE PENTAGON AT OR BLW 200 FT

Which is what they were not doing, at least on arrival. My vantage point for ops is about at the T on POWER PLANT on the map, so it was easy to see that the flightpath was east of the building.

Subjects: None

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LowObservable
March 12, 2025, 13:49:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11846223

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stagformation

Seems like the line you added on the chart is exactly what the Pentagon east/west arr/dep should look like. VFR helo Route 5 ends at Air Force Memorial and then it’s a transition route to Pentagon and Washington Monument. Helo traffic avoiding directly overflying the Pentagon.

One would hope traffic arriving/departing the Pentagon is coordinated tower to tower with DCA if traffic is approaching 15 and departing 33….

But what about the arrowed line of the map to the west of the Pentagon, connecting Route 1 and Route 5? Isn't that the route the helipad, twice as far from the 15 piano keys?

One would definitely hope that traffic is coordinated. From my perspective (17th floor, facing east) the Route 5 traffic is just above the level of the Arlington Ridge treeline as it enters my FOV and is then masked by high-rises as it follows the red line over 395. The terrain and buildings are next to 395 so the 196-foot tower can't see over them. Using GE Pro it looks as if the helos are seconds from the 15 approach before the tower has line of sight to them.

Last edited by LowObservable; 12th March 2025 at 14:07 .

Subjects DCA Route 5 VFR

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LowObservable
March 12, 2025, 18:48:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11846398

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFSGrad

Seems to be a misconception that a published helicopter route must allow for simultaneous ops with fixed wing traffic; e.g., JPN ops and runway 15 landing traffic. While 99% of the published DC helicopter routes are very likely to ensure deconfliction with fixed wing traffic, there are those trouble spots, one of which has recently been in the news. In the case of JPN and runway 15, the obvious answer is that ATC doesn\x92t permit helicopters to land or depart JPN if traffic is landing on runway 15. Or ATC doesn\x92t allow landing traffic for runway 15 while JPN is active.

Right. Can see that. But if Route 5 to JPN is active, then if ATC wants to use the 15 approach, it has to give enough notice for flights to be held at DAA... but the accident flight was turned on to 33 when it was on approach and that in itself didn't seem unusual. And in any case why are they not using the east-of-the-building path on the map?

Subjects ATC Route 5

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LowObservable
March 13, 2025, 20:58:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11847047

Quote:

Originally Posted by galaxy flyer

Any number of the denizens of DC still believe KIAD is found somewhere between \x93DC and Pluto\x94. Truth is in the 60s, the B727 and DC-9 were the only jets operating and they weren\x92t going much farther than 650 sm and included NY, BOS, DTW and CLT. At the the time, the US population was much more centered on the northeast, so the rule worked. DC in 1966 was also a much smaller city\x97nearly zero business, just politics and government. It wasn\x92t the wealthiest area in the country. I flew out of KIAD in the early 80s and it could have been uncontrolled for the tiny amount of traffic there.

I landed there in 1977 and took a bus into DC. It felt like at least half an hour before seeing anything other than scattered small towns. But you're right about DC-9/727 range out of DCA's small runway.

Subjects: None

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LowObservable
March 31, 2025, 21:24:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11858201

Quote:

Originally Posted by A0283

Another interesting point is that mixed heli and fixed wing is forbidden in the yellow zone (permanently), and ADSB mandatory in the red zone. With routes 4 and 6 cut.

The placement of the yellow line closes down the I-395/VA-110 left hook around the East side of the Pentagon that Route 5 inbound helos were using quite routinely before the accident. And whatever restrictions are or are not in place there is virtually nothing moving on Route 5, I guess the top brass has discovered Uber Black.

Subjects ADSB (All) Route 5

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LowObservable
April 25, 2025, 21:45:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11873648

Related update: Although Route 5 is now technically open, the Secret Lair (to wit, home office directly overlooking the route) has observed no more than a couple of movements since the accident.
Also, note that it is now clearly marked that the flightpath is to the West of the Pentagon. One wonders what the reviewers thought of the Apocalypse Now hard-banking stunts around the east side of the building under the 15 approach.

Subjects Route 5

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LowObservable
April 29, 2025, 15:34:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11875483

People here and DEI frothers everywhere need to be asking one question:

If this is about one pilot and one operation, and about a single error 15 seconds before a collision on Route 4, why does Route 5 remain almost completely shut down , and not by the FAA?

I have 100% visual and audible on every Route 5 movement from The Lair, even if I'm not at my desk. Seen two operations since the accident.

I suspect that the answer is this: someone reporting to DoD leadership, not Army aviation, came in, took one look at the ops and ops standards, screamed WHISKEY THE ALFA FOXTROT and observed that it was sheer blind luck the accident hadn't happened earlier, and possibly on the 15 approach with a dozen or so teenage soccer players added to the casualty list.

Last edited by LowObservable; 29th April 2025 at 16:19 .

Subjects DEI FAA Route 4 Route 5

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LowObservable
May 02, 2025, 23:28:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11877447

I know I have been bleating loudly about the visible practice of taking a route to the east of the Pentagon, but here's the latest.

Looks like someone did exactly that today, forcing two go-arounds.

Subjects: None

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LowObservable
May 03, 2025, 12:55:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11877718

And it's 0740 and we just had the first DCA go-around of the day...

Unclear why PAT23 (and apparently other helicopters) fly counter-clockwise; i.e., continue to follow 395 S of Pentagon (past south parking), then turn N to follow 110 (past the Metro entrance) to the JPN landing pad. Why not use the charted transition route along 27/Washington Blvd?

Not a clue, but someone should ask - and, after Thursday, someone should be relieved of command. Because the helo didn't do one pass east of the Pentagon but two, making a circuit after causing the first go-around, and triggering a second. All the while in the ground clutter - hence the jump in data - and apparently, per BFSGrad, unresponsive to control.

The video is in a Twitter post by @STATter911. Cannot link here.

Subjects DCA PAT23

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LowObservable
May 03, 2025, 21:08:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11877940

Quote:
Owned by the Army
U.S.ARMY ATCA-ASO
CAMERON STA
ALEXANDRIA, VA 22314
The Army closed Cameron Station in 1995. Under navigation aids, Nottingham (OTT) Tacan listed as a VORTAC. The VOR portion of OTT was decommissioned at least a decade ago.

It's a posh townhouse development now. Used to have a nice Indian restaurant with belly dancers on weekends, but it did not make it through Covid.

Also, what the effing eff? Is that really the current information?

Subjects: None

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LowObservable
May 05, 2025, 15:34:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11878856

Quote:

Originally Posted by ORAC

Seems like neither the transportation secretary nor the FAA assistant administrator were briefed on the traffic pattern discussed above.

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/0...rport-00325195

\x91Take a taxi or Uber\x92: Duffy blasts Defense Department after incident in DC airspace

Duffy seems to be doing the right thing. He's either really, really pissed off or really, really dumb to get crosswise with DoD's current leadership.

But...

Army says it was a training flight. Going off the charts twice on a training flight? At this time? Potential shenanigans detected.

Subjects FAA

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Posts by user "LowObservable" [Posts: 25 Total up-votes: 16 Page: 1 of 2]¶

FAA Information for KJPN, effective 20 Feb 2025, has amongst Additional Remarks:—