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SINGAPURCANAC
January 30, 2025, 14:00:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817270

Quote:

Originally Posted by island_airphoto

Normally I get a call like "Your traffic is at X altitude at your 3 o'clock, they have you in sight" or similar. I have flown into DCA at night and would have been more than highly surprised to have a helicopter directed to fly basically 100 feet under me, in sight or no.

Shouldnt it be:
Pat 25 traffic at 11 o clock 3 miles, crj following ils for rwy 33, report in sight
??

Subjects DCA

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SINGAPURCANAC
January 31, 2025, 06:47:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817956

Once again simple rule played significant role.

One runway, one ATCO, one frequency , one language ( not issue here- but there are again number of phraseology deviations)

Yes I know, system is more sensitive to money than to safety.

N.B. what I find interesting, systems that are richer are more prone to safety savings.
You will never find in " small and poor " country one ATCO working on 3 rwys withIin busy CTR .

Subjects ATCO Phraseology (ATC)

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SINGAPURCANAC
February 01, 2025, 11:03:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818925

Quote:

No, I don't think he was overwhelmed

No, they just not following phraseology rules.

Every single transmision has " a few" words more than needed

These youtube videos are perfect "devices" to learn youngsters why phraseology has no alternative.

Subjects Phraseology (ATC)

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SINGAPURCANAC
February 08, 2025, 06:22:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11824114

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stagformation

To be specific, para 7.9.4b of the handbook, here:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...5-24_READY.pdf

As mentioned upthread, if not visually separated then either 500ft or 1.5mi applies.

Correct if this is all wrong, but in the accident sequence if the helo had responded \x91not visual yet, looking\x92 or words to that effect, then presumably a controller could allow the two to get a bit closer and then advise the conflicting traffic info to the helo again, say at 2.5mi. If helo visual, great \x97maintain visual separation, responsibly passes to helo.

This is what happened, although the very busy controller failed to re-state the position of the CRJ to direct the eyes of the helo crew onto the CRJ in order that they could actually see and avoid it.

However if not visual at say 2.5mi, well it\x92s a bit late, but the controller does still retain responsibility for separation and must apply the 500ft/1.5mi standard. Presumably instant vectors away while simultaneously climb to min vectoring altitude. Or the CRJ has to go around. Can of worms in busy airspace\x97 helos and /or jets being dispersed all over the sky.

Much better to do a rules based system and mutually exclude intersecting IFR app/deps and Helo Visual Routes.

Could someone explain, how Twr ATCO in that particular enviroment, achieve required separation?
He is not radar qualified- so no headings or radar measurment distances applicable.
Where is prescribed what point is 1,5 Nm away from visual app for rwy 33? ( Note : Atco must achive required separation before that point)
or
At what point should be givem climb instruction for He to be 500' above arriving a/c before compromising 1,5Nm. If rate of climb is 1000 ft/min Helicopet need to climb for 40-50 seconds with the speed 180km/h it is 2 Nm or so - it means that instruction to climb should be given no latter than 4Nm from crossing point.
What is possibikity to spot particular aircraft for visual separation at distances more than 4Nm from crosssing points, duting the night and in bussy traffic enviroment?

Yes , I know it is Burund....

Subjects ATC ATCO CRJ IFR Radar See and Avoid Separation (ALL) Visual Separation

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SINGAPURCANAC
February 08, 2025, 21:34:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11824590

Quote:

Originally Posted by West Coast

How are you so sure the local controller isn\x92t as you put it \x93radar qualified\x94? I worked towers and issue vectors as needed .

there is no word IDENTIFIED b efore any other instruction.

It is esential basic for radar/ surveilance. How the hell you could give vectors for non identified aircraft?

And the above post of island_photo gives exact link with explanation that is officially valid in USA.
No full radar service if it is not " radar contact"( or identified)

It is so logic and simple to remember and to apply.

Last edited by SINGAPURCANAC; 8th February 2025 at 21:45 .

Subjects ATC Radar

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SINGAPURCANAC
February 12, 2025, 17:30:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11826835

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFSGrad

The situation was actually more visually complicated. Screenshot below is about 5 seconds prior to collision with red arrow pointing at 5342 turning into 33. There are 5 aircraft on final for 1 with a 6th joining the parade. AAL 3130 is over the Wilson Bridge and as I recall, UAL 472 next with a couple more JIAs in the stack. Adding to the background against which PAT25 is target hunting is National Harbor with some lesser contribution from the Naval Research Lab and Blue Plains.

I would like to ask if it is known number of aircraft at TWR Frequency( ies) at the moment of collision?
One ATCO, worked , at three separate frequency, three runways, 6 aircraft for arrival 01, one a/c 33, plus three helicopter, plus how many departures ( both active and approaching/crossing active runways) ?
Plus active estimate for a few aircraft more?
Ground vehicles, any?

Subjects ATCO PAT25

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SINGAPURCANAC
October 22, 2025, 09:42:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11974140

Quote:

Which safety assessment was made and validated ( and by who) which allowed visual separation for an helicopter at 200ft to pass below the approach path of an aircrfat at 3 or 400 feet ?, resulting in a 100-200ft separation ?That is the question I would be asking first.How about which actions were taken after the previous incidents , and possibly acting on the normalization of deviance , would be the next

You may bet:
1. These persons, making such SA, won't be part of any investigation especially not part of court trial process.
2. Bad systems do not have independent and respecred SA - that is the first reason- why they are bad for workers, customers and society
3. Last, but no least, it is very hard to prove financial benefits of making independent SA and respect it afterwards.

Subjects Separation (ALL) Situational Awareness Visual Separation

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SINGAPURCANAC January 30, 2025, 14:00:00 GMT permalink Post: 11817270	Quote: Originally Posted by island_airphoto Normally I get a call like "Your traffic is at X altitude at your 3 o'clock, they have you in sight" or similar. I have flown into DCA at night and would have been more than highly surprised to have a helicopter directed to fly basically 100 feet under me, in sight or no. Shouldnt it be: Pat 25 traffic at 11 o clock 3 miles, crj following ils for rwy 33, report in sight ?? Subjects DCA Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
SINGAPURCANAC January 31, 2025, 06:47:00 GMT permalink Post: 11817956	Once again simple rule played significant role. One runway, one ATCO, one frequency , one language ( not issue here- but there are again number of phraseology deviations) Yes I know, system is more sensitive to money than to safety. N.B. what I find interesting, systems that are richer are more prone to safety savings. You will never find in " small and poor " country one ATCO working on 3 rwys withIin busy CTR . Subjects ATCO Phraseology (ATC) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
SINGAPURCANAC February 01, 2025, 11:03:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818925	Quote: No, I don't think he was overwhelmed No, they just not following phraseology rules. Every single transmision has " a few" words more than needed These youtube videos are perfect "devices" to learn youngsters why phraseology has no alternative. Subjects Phraseology (ATC) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 2 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
SINGAPURCANAC February 08, 2025, 06:22:00 GMT permalink Post: 11824114	Quote: Originally Posted by Stagformation To be specific, para 7.9.4b of the handbook, here: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...5-24_READY.pdf As mentioned upthread, if not visually separated then either 500ft or 1.5mi applies. Correct if this is all wrong, but in the accident sequence if the helo had responded \x91not visual yet, looking\x92 or words to that effect, then presumably a controller could allow the two to get a bit closer and then advise the conflicting traffic info to the helo again, say at 2.5mi. If helo visual, great \x97maintain visual separation, responsibly passes to helo. This is what happened, although the very busy controller failed to re-state the position of the CRJ to direct the eyes of the helo crew onto the CRJ in order that they could actually see and avoid it. However if not visual at say 2.5mi, well it\x92s a bit late, but the controller does still retain responsibility for separation and must apply the 500ft/1.5mi standard. Presumably instant vectors away while simultaneously climb to min vectoring altitude. Or the CRJ has to go around. Can of worms in busy airspace\x97 helos and /or jets being dispersed all over the sky. Much better to do a rules based system and mutually exclude intersecting IFR app/deps and Helo Visual Routes. Could someone explain, how Twr ATCO in that particular enviroment, achieve required separation? He is not radar qualified- so no headings or radar measurment distances applicable. Where is prescribed what point is 1,5 Nm away from visual app for rwy 33? ( Note : Atco must achive required separation before that point) or At what point should be givem climb instruction for He to be 500' above arriving a/c before compromising 1,5Nm. If rate of climb is 1000 ft/min Helicopet need to climb for 40-50 seconds with the speed 180km/h it is 2 Nm or so - it means that instruction to climb should be given no latter than 4Nm from crossing point. What is possibikity to spot particular aircraft for visual separation at distances more than 4Nm from crosssing points, duting the night and in bussy traffic enviroment? Yes , I know it is Burund.... Subjects ATC ATCO CRJ IFR Radar See and Avoid Separation (ALL) Visual Separation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
SINGAPURCANAC February 08, 2025, 21:34:00 GMT permalink Post: 11824590	Quote: Originally Posted by West Coast How are you so sure the local controller isn\x92t as you put it \x93radar qualified\x94? I worked towers and issue vectors as needed . there is no word IDENTIFIED b efore any other instruction. It is esential basic for radar/ surveilance. How the hell you could give vectors for non identified aircraft? And the above post of island_photo gives exact link with explanation that is officially valid in USA. No full radar service if it is not " radar contact"( or identified) It is so logic and simple to remember and to apply. Last edited by SINGAPURCANAC; 8th February 2025 at 21:45 . Subjects ATC Radar Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 2 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
SINGAPURCANAC February 12, 2025, 17:30:00 GMT permalink Post: 11826835	Quote: Originally Posted by BFSGrad The situation was actually more visually complicated. Screenshot below is about 5 seconds prior to collision with red arrow pointing at 5342 turning into 33. There are 5 aircraft on final for 1 with a 6th joining the parade. AAL 3130 is over the Wilson Bridge and as I recall, UAL 472 next with a couple more JIAs in the stack. Adding to the background against which PAT25 is target hunting is National Harbor with some lesser contribution from the Naval Research Lab and Blue Plains. I would like to ask if it is known number of aircraft at TWR Frequency( ies) at the moment of collision? One ATCO, worked , at three separate frequency, three runways, 6 aircraft for arrival 01, one a/c 33, plus three helicopter, plus how many departures ( both active and approaching/crossing active runways) ? Plus active estimate for a few aircraft more? Ground vehicles, any? Subjects ATCO PAT25 Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
SINGAPURCANAC October 22, 2025, 09:42:00 GMT permalink Post: 11974140	Quote: Which safety assessment was made and validated ( and by who) which allowed visual separation for an helicopter at 200ft to pass below the approach path of an aircrfat at 3 or 400 feet ?, resulting in a 100-200ft separation ?That is the question I would be asking first.How about which actions were taken after the previous incidents , and possibly acting on the normalization of deviance , would be the next You may bet: 1. These persons, making such SA, won't be part of any investigation especially not part of court trial process. 2. Bad systems do not have independent and respecred SA - that is the first reason- why they are bad for workers, customers and society 3. Last, but no least, it is very hard to prove financial benefits of making independent SA and respect it afterwards. Subjects Separation (ALL) Situational Awareness Visual Separation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

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