Stringy Page: 1 of 1

Stringy
January 30, 2025, 10:42:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817113

Quote:

Originally Posted by 172_driver

I used to enjoy the free use of airspace in the US, but I always told myself and others; It's not for anyone who under performs.

That's an indirect way of saying that the system is flawed and is relying too much on humans to stop it from failing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDLB

So a midair in the most tightly restricted and controlled airspace in the world. How many official agents were watching this in real time without taking action?

The problem is an over reliance on visual separation in congested and complicated airspace. An aircraft claims it has the traffic in sight, therefore taking responsibility for separation, and ATC moves on to their next task. The fact that this is allowed with commercial aviation over DC (or any major US city) when there's potentially hundreds of lives at stake in the air, never mind the lives on the ground, is staggering.

Subjects ATC Separation (ALL) Traffic in Sight Visual Separation

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Stringy
January 31, 2025, 10:00:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818060

I'm worried about the potential politicisation of any subsequent inquiry into this terrible incident, especially in the current US political climate. So many things lined up for this to go wrong, and the investigation needs to go hammer and tongs at all of them and not scapegoat one individual thing or oversimplify. Things like:
- A nationwide over-reliance on visual separation with commercial passenger traffic
- US exceptionalism regarding how brilliant they are (how many times in the last 24 hours have you heard someone rabbit on about how the USA has the safest aviation in the world...) the inquiry needs to tear this to shreds.
- An ATM system running beyond capacity
- Deference to government and military (both in general life and aviation)

I have little to no hope that in the current political climate a review will be held with enough freedom to do all of the work it needs to.

SIr Charles Haddon-Cave QC said it best in the Nimrod Review, the independent review into the loss of RAF Nimrod XV230. The damning review into UK military aviation safety was simply titled:

"A failure of leadership, culture and priorities"

Subjects Separation (ALL) Visual Separation

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Stringy
January 31, 2025, 10:30:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11818085

Quote:

Originally Posted by xyzzy

The XV230 report is absolutely damning. unlike the typical AAIB report which (with some exceptions) is focussed on the events in the hours and sometimes days leading up to the event, it has a scope of decades. Absolutely no-one emerges from it with credit, apart from the people on board the aircraft who paid the price for the indolence and indifference of essentially the entire RAF procurement and maintenance arm. The only parallels are the reports into the loss of the two shuttles, but even those were softened by an air of oh, space travel is necessary and cool, so we shouldn't say anything too bad about the noble cause.

In the case of XV230: The Nimrod Safety Case was a lamentable job from start to finish. It was riddled with errors. It missed the key dangers. Its production is a story of incompetence, complacency, and cynicism.

Nice to find a fellow report appreciator 😅

Any subsequent review into this incident (following the initial accident investigation) needs to go exactly the same way - what on earth has happened to US aviation as a system and culture, supposedly the "safest in the world\x99", to allow a military helicopter to occupy the exact same piece of sky as a commercial airliner, that merely by the grace of god wasn't an A380 carrying many hundreds of people. One does not simply look at the hours leading up to it and that one bit of airspace in isolation.

Subjects: None

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Stringy
April 27, 2025, 20:03:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11874531

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chgoquad

So 3 months and more than a few deleted posts later am I able to call out the incompetence of this young female pilot now that the report is out or do the woke mods still not allow us to confront reality?

Incompetence? It was an instructor led check-ride. If the pilot isn't competent and it contributes to a mishap then it implies the instructor wasn't up to the job. Are you gunning for both of them, or just the female because 'reasons'?

Subjects: None

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Stringy
April 28, 2025, 09:40:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11874750

Sad thing is, if the ATCO involved was female I bet that the ill educated misogynist hate mob would be directing more vitriol their way as well. Thank the lord most safety investigations in the modern era are human factors focused out of the public eye, without pitch forks and 'blame' culture.

Subjects ATCO

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Stringy
April 28, 2025, 15:56:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11874901

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailvi767

I am not going to attempt to attach a reason to it but Gender has played an outsized role in the US in both accidents and incidents relative to overall pilot numbers.

In what direction and what's your source/citation?

Subjects: None

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Stringy
April 28, 2025, 18:52:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11874964

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailvi767

The gender involving crews in accidents and incidents. It\x92s not proportionally with actual numbers. Delta or its subsidiary has had two minor and one major accident in the last 2 years. All three involved female crew members. Southwest has had at least two serious incidents in the last six months with the same. United has had a similar issue including a severe tailstrike at EWR. Some of the best pilots I flew with were female. The best CA I ever flew with was female. There does however seem to be more of a pass for training issues based on gender. Training to proficiency is not a good safety concept. There needs to be a reasonable standard for how much extra instruction will be provided before someone is asked to leave. I actually believe DEI is a worthy concept but not if you lower standards.

What's your source/citation? Or is it just based on the incidents involving women that for some psychological reason you happen to remember more than incidents involving men?

I mean, here's something I've read that cites actual studies on the matter, not anecdotes.
https://www.newsweek.com/do-women-pi...re-men-1973481

Subjects DEI

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Stringy January 30, 2025, 10:42:00 GMT permalink Post: 11817113	Quote: Originally Posted by 172_driver I used to enjoy the free use of airspace in the US, but I always told myself and others; It's not for anyone who under performs. That's an indirect way of saying that the system is flawed and is relying too much on humans to stop it from failing. Quote: Originally Posted by EDLB So a midair in the most tightly restricted and controlled airspace in the world. How many official agents were watching this in real time without taking action? The problem is an over reliance on visual separation in congested and complicated airspace. An aircraft claims it has the traffic in sight, therefore taking responsibility for separation, and ATC moves on to their next task. The fact that this is allowed with commercial aviation over DC (or any major US city) when there's potentially hundreds of lives at stake in the air, never mind the lives on the ground, is staggering. Subjects ATC Separation (ALL) Traffic in Sight Visual Separation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 15 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Stringy January 31, 2025, 10:00:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818060	I'm worried about the potential politicisation of any subsequent inquiry into this terrible incident, especially in the current US political climate. So many things lined up for this to go wrong, and the investigation needs to go hammer and tongs at all of them and not scapegoat one individual thing or oversimplify. Things like: - A nationwide over-reliance on visual separation with commercial passenger traffic - US exceptionalism regarding how brilliant they are (how many times in the last 24 hours have you heard someone rabbit on about how the USA has the safest aviation in the world...) the inquiry needs to tear this to shreds. - An ATM system running beyond capacity - Deference to government and military (both in general life and aviation) I have little to no hope that in the current political climate a review will be held with enough freedom to do all of the work it needs to. SIr Charles Haddon-Cave QC said it best in the Nimrod Review, the independent review into the loss of RAF Nimrod XV230. The damning review into UK military aviation safety was simply titled: "A failure of leadership, culture and priorities" Subjects Separation (ALL) Visual Separation Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Stringy January 31, 2025, 10:30:00 GMT permalink Post: 11818085	Quote: Originally Posted by xyzzy The XV230 report is absolutely damning. unlike the typical AAIB report which (with some exceptions) is focussed on the events in the hours and sometimes days leading up to the event, it has a scope of decades. Absolutely no-one emerges from it with credit, apart from the people on board the aircraft who paid the price for the indolence and indifference of essentially the entire RAF procurement and maintenance arm. The only parallels are the reports into the loss of the two shuttles, but even those were softened by an air of oh, space travel is necessary and cool, so we shouldn't say anything too bad about the noble cause. In the case of XV230: The Nimrod Safety Case was a lamentable job from start to finish. It was riddled with errors. It missed the key dangers. Its production is a story of incompetence, complacency, and cynicism. Nice to find a fellow report appreciator 😅 Any subsequent review into this incident (following the initial accident investigation) needs to go exactly the same way - what on earth has happened to US aviation as a system and culture, supposedly the "safest in the world\x99", to allow a military helicopter to occupy the exact same piece of sky as a commercial airliner, that merely by the grace of god wasn't an A380 carrying many hundreds of people. One does not simply look at the hours leading up to it and that one bit of airspace in isolation. Subjects: None No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Stringy April 27, 2025, 20:03:00 GMT permalink Post: 11874531	Quote: Originally Posted by Chgoquad So 3 months and more than a few deleted posts later am I able to call out the incompetence of this young female pilot now that the report is out or do the woke mods still not allow us to confront reality? Incompetence? It was an instructor led check-ride. If the pilot isn't competent and it contributes to a mishap then it implies the instructor wasn't up to the job. Are you gunning for both of them, or just the female because 'reasons'? Subjects: None 7 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Stringy April 28, 2025, 09:40:00 GMT permalink Post: 11874750	Sad thing is, if the ATCO involved was female I bet that the ill educated misogynist hate mob would be directing more vitriol their way as well. Thank the lord most safety investigations in the modern era are human factors focused out of the public eye, without pitch forks and 'blame' culture. Subjects ATCO Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Stringy April 28, 2025, 15:56:00 GMT permalink Post: 11874901	Quote: Originally Posted by Sailvi767 I am not going to attempt to attach a reason to it but Gender has played an outsized role in the US in both accidents and incidents relative to overall pilot numbers. In what direction and what's your source/citation? Subjects: None 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Stringy April 28, 2025, 18:52:00 GMT permalink Post: 11874964	Quote: Originally Posted by Sailvi767 The gender involving crews in accidents and incidents. It\x92s not proportionally with actual numbers. Delta or its subsidiary has had two minor and one major accident in the last 2 years. All three involved female crew members. Southwest has had at least two serious incidents in the last six months with the same. United has had a similar issue including a severe tailstrike at EWR. Some of the best pilots I flew with were female. The best CA I ever flew with was female. There does however seem to be more of a pass for training issues based on gender. Training to proficiency is not a good safety concept. There needs to be a reasonable standard for how much extra instruction will be provided before someone is asked to leave. I actually believe DEI is a worthy concept but not if you lower standards. What's your source/citation? Or is it just based on the incidents involving women that for some psychological reason you happen to remember more than incidents involving men? I mean, here's something I've read that cites actual studies on the matter, not anecdotes. https://www.newsweek.com/do-women-pi...re-men-1973481 Subjects DEI Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 2 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

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