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dragon6172
January 30, 2025, 02:47:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11816784

Video from afar. Doesn't look good

Subjects: None

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dragon6172
January 30, 2025, 14:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817272

Quote:

Originally Posted by visibility3miles

The helicopter\x92s right turn was directly over a golf course, not a residential neighborhood. It was probably done for noise abatement reasons, because it then turned left and proceeded down more directly over the river.

The golf course is on a peninsula in the river, so the helicopter was flying over water before and after it made the two turns.

The track in your image is not an accurate representation of PAT25s actual flight path. The leaked ATC radar track here and the VASAviation recreation here are more representative. There was no sharp RH turn to cross over the Potomac Park golf courses, it was a gentle RH turn to follow the published Route 1 to Route 4 helicopter transition around DCA.

Subjects ATC DCA Radar Route 4

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dragon6172
January 30, 2025, 16:21:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817368

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magplug

BTW.... I have used NVGs. How the hell can you operate in downtown Washington, with so much that is either lit... or floodlit? The NVG image will be flared out every time you turn your head towards a light.

I have a little over 1000 hours flying with ANVIS-9s, they do just fine with high cultural lighting situations (this was 20+ years ago).

Subjects Night Vision Goggles (NVG)

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dragon6172
January 31, 2025, 02:05:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11817847

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lomon

Could the sudden right turn be last minute (second) avoiding action when the RW pilots realised they were about to collide with an airliner?

The helicopter was tracking in southerly direction with the airliner passing left to right in front of them. A right turn is the obvious avoiding action as a last ditch manoeuvre to avoid a collision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WHBM

The sudden right turn by the helo in the final moments is surprising, but I wonder, given the bland "Can you see the CRJ", followed by "Pass behind the CRJ", whether they were actually looking, in the dark through their night vision goggles, at the aircraft lined up on 01 which was just starting its takeoff run. "Can you see it". There it is, down there. "Pass behind it". OK, let's turn now to pass behind it.

What sudden right turn?

Subjects CRJ Pass Behind Pass Behind (All)

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dragon6172
July 31, 2025, 22:18:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11931562

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50

They were flying over the river, not the built up areas. Not sure how much time you have flying in a Blackhawk, but if you are over the water at night at 200' your radalt is giving you better indications of how far you are above water than your bar alt. If the two disagree, which one do you think you'll be using?
(Same is true in the Seahawk).

As to your point on the cause of the accident, yes, they were not aware of the traffic coming into 33 (for reasons beaten to death already).

I'm going to offer a contributing cause that I think merits consideration: there was mention made early on of there being 1, not 2, tower controllers on duty at the time when apparently 2 is the normal number.
Had there been two, the helicopter might have been handled differently, but we'll never know.

Spoiler

I have flown that route a handful of times during my time in the Marine Corps (admittedly it's been more than 20 years ago). I recall being asked to do a 360 turn over the Wilson Bridge for spacing (we were northbound) for traffic landing on 33.

In regards to your other comment about them not seeing the CRJ, I have believed from the time that the radio traffic was public that the controller was not specific enough when he asked PAT 25 "do you have the CRJ in sight?" Something along the lines of "PAT 25, CRJ on final for RWY 33 is at your 10 o'clock less than a mile, pass behind that traffic" should have drawn the helo crews eyes to the left to hopefully see the traffic. Even better would have been to have the helo do a left 360 over Hains Point.

Subjects ATC Blackhawk (H-60) CRJ Pass Behind Pass Behind (All)

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dragon6172 January 30, 2025, 02:47:00 GMT permalink Post: 11816784	X - Formerly Twitter Video from afar. Doesn't look good Subjects: None No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
dragon6172 January 30, 2025, 14:10:00 GMT permalink Post: 11817272	Quote: Originally Posted by visibility3miles The helicopter\x92s right turn was directly over a golf course, not a residential neighborhood. It was probably done for noise abatement reasons, because it then turned left and proceeded down more directly over the river. The golf course is on a peninsula in the river, so the helicopter was flying over water before and after it made the two turns. The track in your image is not an accurate representation of PAT25s actual flight path. The leaked ATC radar track here and the VASAviation recreation here are more representative. There was no sharp RH turn to cross over the Potomac Park golf courses, it was a gentle RH turn to follow the published Route 1 to Route 4 helicopter transition around DCA. Subjects ATC DCA Radar Route 4 Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
dragon6172 January 30, 2025, 16:21:00 GMT permalink Post: 11817368	Quote: Originally Posted by Magplug BTW.... I have used NVGs. How the hell can you operate in downtown Washington, with so much that is either lit... or floodlit? The NVG image will be flared out every time you turn your head towards a light. I have a little over 1000 hours flying with ANVIS-9s, they do just fine with high cultural lighting situations (this was 20+ years ago). Subjects Night Vision Goggles (NVG) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
dragon6172 January 31, 2025, 02:05:00 GMT permalink Post: 11817847	Quote: Originally Posted by Lomon Could the sudden right turn be last minute (second) avoiding action when the RW pilots realised they were about to collide with an airliner? The helicopter was tracking in southerly direction with the airliner passing left to right in front of them. A right turn is the obvious avoiding action as a last ditch manoeuvre to avoid a collision. Quote: Originally Posted by WHBM The sudden right turn by the helo in the final moments is surprising, but I wonder, given the bland "Can you see the CRJ", followed by "Pass behind the CRJ", whether they were actually looking, in the dark through their night vision goggles, at the aircraft lined up on 01 which was just starting its takeoff run. "Can you see it". There it is, down there. "Pass behind it". OK, let's turn now to pass behind it. What sudden right turn? Subjects CRJ Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
dragon6172 July 31, 2025, 22:18:00 GMT permalink Post: 11931562	Quote: Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 They were flying over the river, not the built up areas. Not sure how much time you have flying in a Blackhawk, but if you are over the water at night at 200' your radalt is giving you better indications of how far you are above water than your bar alt. If the two disagree, which one do you think you'll be using? (Same is true in the Seahawk). As to your point on the cause of the accident, yes, they were not aware of the traffic coming into 33 (for reasons beaten to death already). I'm going to offer a contributing cause that I think merits consideration: there was mention made early on of there being 1, not 2, tower controllers on duty at the time when apparently 2 is the normal number. Had there been two, the helicopter might have been handled differently, but we'll never know. Spoiler Spoiler The youtube vid some months back had a pilot who had flown in that unit, and he mentioned often getting "do a left 360 for spacing" in the past. That would have sufficed in this, and other, cases where traffic comes into 33. I have flown that route a handful of times during my time in the Marine Corps (admittedly it's been more than 20 years ago). I recall being asked to do a 360 turn over the Wilson Bridge for spacing (we were northbound) for traffic landing on 33. In regards to your other comment about them not seeing the CRJ, I have believed from the time that the radio traffic was public that the controller was not specific enough when he asked PAT 25 "do you have the CRJ in sight?" Something along the lines of "PAT 25, CRJ on final for RWY 33 is at your 10 o'clock less than a mile, pass behind that traffic" should have drawn the helo crews eyes to the left to hopefully see the traffic. Even better would have been to have the helo do a left 360 over Hains Point. Subjects ATC Blackhawk (H-60) CRJ Pass Behind Pass Behind (All) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 4 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

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