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T28B
2025-06-17T18:43:00 permalink Post: 11904553 |
1. We can't afford him, even if we could do that.
![]() 2. Attempting to enforce a writing style isn't going to work. I was offered a link to an official report (allegedly by the AAIB in India) this morning from a retired pilot friend: he said it was dated 15 June 2025. I checked the official site and found nothing. I went to his link and got a 404 result. Even professionals (he's only been retired a couple of years) can be taken in by the avalanche of "information" running around. 6 users liked this post. |
DIBO
2025-06-17T18:54:00 permalink Post: 11904567 |
Absolutely. This confidence that the EAFR has already been read is misplaced. It\x92s a specialist piece of equipment and probably can\x92t even be downloaded in India. It\x92s most likely on its way to the NTSB, the BEA or the AAIB (UK) for analysis which will be done under strict conditions (for obvious reasons).
An if they decide to do it locally, they will take their time (I hope) not to screw up their moment de gloire 5 users liked this post. |
DaveReidUK
2025-06-17T19:03:00 permalink Post: 11904575 |
Absolutely. This confidence that the EAFR has already been read is misplaced. It’s a specialist piece of equipment and probably can’t even be downloaded in India. It’s most likely on its way to the NTSB, the BEA or the AAIB (UK) for analysis which will be done under strict conditions (for obvious reasons).
Each is downloaded separately in pretty much the same way as always. 5 users liked this post. |
DaveReidUK
2025-06-17T20:00:00 permalink Post: 11904606 |
I was referring to CVR/FDRs in general being specialist equipment requiring specialist facilities to process. In any case, I would be very interested to find out where those from this accident are read. It appears from a post upthread there are new facilities in New Dehli that could be used. Having said that, for the EK 521 accident in Dubai the recorders were sent to the UK for analysis, despite a "flight data recorder centre" in Abu Dhabi being opened (again with much fanfare) by the UAE GCAA five years before the occurrence.
3 users liked this post. |
OldnGrounded
2025-06-17T20:23:00 permalink Post: 11904625 |
AAIB sets up flight recorders laboratory
New Delhi, Apr 9 (PTI) Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB) has set up a flight recorders laboratory that will help it in carrying out more effective probes into accidents.
Civil Aviation Minister K Rammohan Naidu inaugurated the laboratory in the AAIB premises in the national capital on Wednesday. 2 users liked this post. |
Lord Bracken
2025-06-17T20:24:00 permalink Post: 11904626 |
I have no misgivings, I\x92m just challenging the assertion that because the recorders have been found, they have already been read. There\x92s any number of reasons why they may not have been read yet, in India or anywhere else.
1 user liked this post. |
unworry
2025-06-17T21:35:00 permalink Post: 11904689 |
2 users liked this post. |
tdracer
2025-06-17T21:41:00 permalink Post: 11904694 |
I was referring to CVR/FDRs in general being specialist equipment requiring specialist facilities to process. In any case, I would be very interested to find out where those from this accident are read. It appears from a post upthread there are new facilities in New Dehli that could be used. Having said that, for the EK 521 accident in Dubai the recorders were sent to the UK for analysis, despite a "flight data recorder centre" in Abu Dhabi being opened (again with much fanfare) by the UAE GCAA five years before the occurrence.
Usually when I hear of data recorders going back to the US NTSB or the recorder manufacturer, it's because the crash damage is such that specialized equipment is needed to download the data. The recorder in the tail would likely have little damage. While the AAIB may have held off on downloading the recorders until all the major players are present, it's been several days - I'd expect everyone who matters is already there. So I think it is reasonable to believe that the investigators have done a download and have had at least a preliminary look at the data. If there is a smoking gun, they probably already know (and the longer we don't hear something regarding the rest of the 787 fleet, or at least the GEnx powered fleet, the less likely it is that they suspect a systemic problem with the aircraft and/or engine). However the proviso that I posted earlier about potential data loss/corruption due to a sudden shutdown still applies - so maybe the data simply isn't on the recorder. As has already been posted, EMI is highly unlikely - the current cert requirements for HIRF are quite high, and due to the composite airframe construction of the 787, the lighting requirements are much higher than for conventional aluminum aircraft (the higher resistance of the composite airframe results is higher lightning induced currents). FDR has suggested a large slug of water hitting critical aircraft electronics at rotation - it is possible that resultant electrical short circuits could falsely signal the engines that the switches are in cutoff. Highly unlikely that it would do that to both engines, but possible. Then again, all the other plausible explanations are highly unlikely, so... BTW, I do have a life outside PPRuNe - and I'm going to be traveling the next several days, with limited to non-existent internet access. So don't be surprised if I'm not responding posts or PMs. 16 users liked this post. |
Magplug
2025-06-18T10:17:00 permalink Post: 11905107 |
Boeing will safeguard Boeing's interests, the NTSB will safeguard American interests. If the Indian AAIB start dragging their feet over publishing their initial report in an effort to protect Indian interests then Boeing and the NTSB will make a joint press release to the effect that the aircraft was serviceable right up to the point of impact. They have done it before.
4 users liked this post. |
PC767
2025-06-18T15:31:00 permalink Post: 11905336 |
"
On JUn 18th 2025 the DGCA stated, that the inspection of Air India's Dreamliners did not find any major safety deficiency. Aircraft and maintenance were found in compliance with existing safety standards."
https://avherald.com/h?article=528f27ec&opt=0 Does the statement imply that something noted on the crashed aircraft was not present on the remaining aircraft. If the investigative team are aware of what happened, are they also aware of why it happened. As noted elsewhere - surely far too soon to be certain. If they are not aware of the why or how, how can they be certain there are no safety deficiencies. Similarily, aircraft and maintainence comply with existing standards. It may well have been the case that existing standards were applied to the crashed aircraft. Does the statement imply that there was nothing wrong with either the Boeing aircraft or the Air India standards. What about the GE engines, are they considered part of the description of both aircraft and standards. Or was the entire exercise merely a PR wash which achieved nothing other than optics that 787s and Air India are safe because standards are being maintained and aeroplanes have no issues. I'm tempted to read nothing into the statement because it came from the DGCA rather than the AAIB of India. 1 user liked this post. |
DBYO
2025-06-18T16:29:00 permalink Post: 11905383 |
Fleet checks
An interesting statement.
Does the statement imply that something noted on the crashed aircraft was not present on the remaining aircraft. If the investigative team are aware of what happened, are they also aware of why it happened. As noted elsewhere - surely far too soon to be certain. If they are not aware of the why or how, how can they be certain there are no safety deficiencies. Similarily, aircraft and maintainence comply with existing standards. It may well have been the case that existing standards were applied to the crashed aircraft. Does the statement imply that there was nothing wrong with either the Boeing aircraft or the Air India standards. What about the GE engines, are they considered part of the description of both aircraft and standards. Or was the entire exercise merely a PR wash which achieved nothing other than optics that 787s and Air India are safe because standards are being maintained and aeroplanes have no issues. I'm tempted to read nothing into the statement because it came from the DGCA rather than the AAIB of India. It was surely a worthwhile exercise, whatever the outcome. It hasn\x92t come up trumps but it was at least possible that inspecting the other aircraft might have thrown up a clue to the crash. It would be interesting to know whether the crashed aircraft was used for parts around the Covid slowdown and whether this was exceptional or whether other inspected aircraft were similarly treated. |
John Marsh
2025-06-19T15:06:00 permalink Post: 11906098 |
Flight recorders
Reuters
:
The government said in a statement that the decision on where the decoding of the recorders would take place would be made after India's Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB) has made a "due assessment" of all technical, safety and security considerations.
AAIB's Director General GVG Yugandhar told Reuters earlier in an emailed response that the Economic Times report was "factually incorrect", but gave no further details. The government statement did not explicitly rule out the possibility of the flight recorders being sent to the United States. It asked for people not to speculate on what it called sensitive matters and stressed the crash probe was progressing with all necessary support from local authorities and agencies. 2 users liked this post. |
TWT
2025-06-20T09:21:00 permalink Post: 11906763 |
India's Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB) is yet to decide whether flight data and cockpit voice recorders from the Air India flight that crashed last Thursday will be sent overseas for decoding and analysis.
2 users liked this post. |
ciclo
2025-06-20T13:34:00 permalink Post: 11906977 |
procedural question about investigations
Quoting a media report:
"There are nearly 1,150 Boeing 787 variants currently in service across the world, taking a snap decision on the airworthiness of the worldwide Boeing 787 aircraft would be highly irresponsible, which is why international agencies are conducting independent investigations into the June 12 crash, and if sufficient evidence is found a decision will be taken," a senior government official working alongside the international agencies told Moneycontrol.
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thf
2025-06-20T14:21:00 permalink Post: 11907014 |
Background info from "The Hindu",
Ahmedabad plane crash: Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau yet to decide where black box data will be decoded
Black Boxes
The government body investigating the Air India Boeing 787-8 crash in Ahmedabad last week will take a decision on where the black box data will be decoded \x93after due assessment of all technical, safety, and security considerations,\x94 the Ministry of Civil Aviation said on Thursday (June 19, 2025).
The statement said two different sets of black boxes were recovered from the crash site, one on June 13 and another on June 16. Each black box unit comprises the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) and Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR).
A government official closely involved with the probe said there would be a preliminary report. Interestingly, during the only other airline crash investigated by the AAIB (which was formed in 2012), after the Mangalore crash of May 2010 \x97 i.e. Calicut accident \x97 only the final report was published within a year.
Officials, past and present, explained that the rules under which the AAIB carries out an investigation do not specify a timeline for a preliminary report, even though the UN aviation safety watchdog, the International Civil Aviation Organisation\x92s Annex 13 requires one within 30 days. A similar rule is not part of the Aircraft (Investigation of Accidents and Incidents) Rules, 2017 formed under the principal law, the Bharatiya Vayuyan Vidheyak, 2024. (...) One of the above mentioned officials said the Calicut probe team didn\x92t release a preliminary report because the Rules don\x92t lay down a timeline for it and require such a report to only categorise the nature of the mishap. He added that the team involved in the drafting of the Rules held the opinion that such a report could be vastly different from the final investigation report, which may result in public criticism and media backlash. 1 user liked this post. |
Kentut
2025-06-20T17:32:00 permalink Post: 11907152 |
Source: business today June 19th |
krismiler
2025-06-21T00:59:00 permalink Post: 11907419 |
It's starting to look more like a massive electrical or computer issue which resulted in both engines failing, the landing gear may have been left down longer than normal due to startle effect.
It could be maintenance related or a latent condition in the B787 which only occurred due to the required factors all being present on this occasion i.e. the holes in the Swiss cheese all lined up. Boeing and Air India will be wanting to blame each other, hopefully having the UK AAIB involved will provide a balance as they don't have a dog in the fight. If this turns out to be another MCAS, it will be difficult for Boeing to continue in it's present form. The B787 has been beset with problems since its introduction, the B777X has had numerous issues during development and the B737 is overdue for replacement. Airlines are starting to drop Boeing due to quality, safety and delivery issues. China is on the rise and if the C919 proves itself, it might be the main alternative to the A320. Last edited by krismiler; 21st Jun 2025 at 01:19 . |
Icarus2001
2025-06-21T01:15:00 permalink Post: 11907429 |
so it's not clear who has primacy in the investigation any more.
Under ICAO rules the AAIB has lead on this. It was an Indian registered aircraft that crashed in India, how could they not be? The aviation minister ordered a “high level” investigation in to the accident. This is politics only.
NEW DELHI, June 15 (Xinhua) -- India's federal civil aviation minister Ram Mohan Naidu Kinjarapu Saturday said keeping in view the utmost seriousness of the incident, another high-level committee has been formed to probe the deadly plane crash in the western state of Gujarat.
The committee, according to Kinjarapu, will be headed by the home secretary and will submit its report in three months. If the aviation minister understood his portfolio he would know that the AAIB and DGCA are the accountable and responsible agencies here. Watch carefully. 3 users liked this post. |
T28B
2025-06-21T14:05:00 permalink Post: 11907781 |
The situation with reading the flight recorders seem increasingly suspicious to me. As of yesterday, they're still dithering about whether to send them to the USA? Is this about India not wanting to reveal their smart new facility can't do the job? Or unwillingness to trust the US/Boeing? Or some other kind of argument? It seems ridiculous to me that no decision has been made about the boxes nine days after the crash and the rapidly discovered recorders.
India to decide on overseas analysis of Air India crash flight recorders Note this excerpt from your linked article:
India's Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB) is yet to decide whether flight data and cockpit voice recorders from the Air India flight that crashed last Thursday will be sent overseas for decoding and analysis. {remove crash generalities} Some media outlets reported that the black boxes are being sent abroad, but the ministry of civil aviation clarified that no final decision has been made.The ministry
said
the AAIB will determine the location for analysis after a "due assessment of technical, safety, and security factors".
1. They'd rather do things deliberately, and get it right, than to make a slight rush and get something wrong (even a little bit wrong) 2. The political leadership are sensitive to how the information age, and social media, amplifies even the slightest misstatement. 3. If they can do it in house then why not do it in house? Why add further delay by transferring the recorder and risk accidents in handling during transit? 4. They are under a timeline set by ICAO, not the time line that your, or my, or "the public's" hunger for information and impatience sets. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Last edited by T28B; 21st Jun 2025 at 14:13 . Reason: punctuation errors 14 users liked this post. |
Gary Brown
2025-06-21T17:36:00 permalink Post: 11907923 |
I'll double check my claim of 100 x for the Japan incident tomorrow. I'm on cooking duty this evening..... 1 user liked this post. |