Posts about: "AAIB (All)" [Posts: 166 Page: 8 of 9]

WillowRun 6-3
July 17, 2025, 15:19:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11924438
Originally Posted by OldnGrounded
Quite right. The NTSB upbraided, warned and sanctioned Boeing over unauthorized release of information (with a somewhat self-defensive spin) in the Alaska 1282 investigation just last year. .....
I'm sure that the WSJ believes that its sources are qualified and knowledgeable and that the sources probably believe what they are leaking, but it's a terrible and damaging practice in accident investigations, in this case serving no purpose other than clickbait taking advantage of public curiosity. And there really is nothing new in the "breaking news" story, at least nothing of substance.
It's the last sentence which prompts me to comment further. First, the relevant excerpt from the Journal item:
"An NTSB spokesman said Homendy has been fully briefed on all aspects of the Air India investigation, including the cockpit voice recording and details from the flight-data recorder.

Homendy said her goal in working with Indian authorities was 'to quickly determine whether the crash presented any immediate safety concerns to the traveling public.'" (internal quotation as in original)

It's quite unlikely the NTSB spokesman would have said more than Chair Homendy had authorized. The content as to the scope of her review isn't the substantive part, but it does set the context for the quote from Ms. Homendy. Her statement refers to "quickly" making a determination about "immediate safety concerns." I read this as not referring only to the time after the Prelim Rpt was released, but all of NTSB's interactions with AAIB as of July 12.

We know no emergency (or other similar labels) ADs have been issued. Early on, when no such emergency ADs were issued, some people speculated that cover-up could be the reason why. And, recalling back to the first days as of July 12, there was wide recognition that a grounding order would have immense impact and consequences, given the widespread numbers in airline fleets.

But now, the Board Chair provides an attributable on-the-record statement about the need for immediacy, had there been an aircraft or engine problem. What I read as substantive is the confirmation from such an official source that no such problem has been shown to exist. Not a large segment of the "traveling public" let alone the public at large reads Accident Board reports, let alone preliminary editions. So in her giving an attributable statement, I read an intention to reach a wider and more general audience with the message, in effect, that the causal chain of this accident does not stem from an aircraft or engine problem implicating safety of flight.

Subjects AAIB (All)  NTSB  Wall Street Journal

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

2 recorded likes for this post.

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

jimtx
July 17, 2025, 16:05:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11924450
Originally Posted by 1stspotter
No that is not what I mean,
The faulty switch on same Boeing 737 aircraft is a red herring. It has nothing to do with the Boeing 787. This aircraft has a different type of switch (see partnumber). There is not a single issue ever reported. There was not a single issue found after the crash.
.
Why would AAIB include that red herring in the prelim when they had the switches in their possession and included pics of them in the report? I have to admit that I took a bite of that herring and still have a nagging issue with myself not being able to see a dog on the lower part of the left switch. But I'm more inclined to think badly of the AAIB for including the herring.

Subjects AAIB (All)

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes').

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

za9ra22
July 17, 2025, 16:23:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11924460
Originally Posted by jimtx
Why would AAIB include that red herring in the prelim when they had the switches in their possession and included pics of them in the report? I have to admit that I took a bite of that herring and still have a nagging issue with myself not being able to see a dog on the lower part of the left switch. But I'm more inclined to think badly of the AAIB for including the herring.
Not sure why you would think the paragraph in the preliminary report was a red herring - it's a statement of historical context directly relating to the fuel control switches which the investigation had found in the FDR record as having 'transitioned' to OFF before 'transitioning' ack to ON.

To not detail the background would have been to omit a clearly pertinent fact which would have left others questioning the authority of the report for not covering it. The report itself then clearly states: "At this stage of investigation, there are no recommended actions to B787-8 and/or GE GEnx-1B engine operators and manufacturers." to ensure it is known that no defects were found at the time of the report being issued.

I suspect it is written as it is because at this point, there is no evidence the investigation can provide as to how the switches 'transitioned', let alone why.

Subjects AAIB (All)  FDR  Fuel (All)  Fuel Cutoff Switches  Preliminary Report

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

5 recorded likes for this post.

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

1stspotter
July 17, 2025, 16:23:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11924461
Originally Posted by jimtx
Why would AAIB include that red herring in the prelim when they had the switches in their possession and included pics of them in the report? I have to admit that I took a bite of that herring and still have a nagging issue with myself not being able to see a dog on the lower part of the left switch. But I'm more inclined to think badly of the AAIB for including the herring.
The switches are crucial in the investigation. This is a crash with a lot of politics. See how India media is reporting. It is almost a India versus the West discussion. I guess the AAIB included the SAIB to keep all options open, keep parties involved in the investigation happy and prevent that the investigation could be seen as biased. Hence to use of words like ' transitioned'.


Subjects AAIB (All)  Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

1 recorded likes for this post.

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

OldnGrounded
July 17, 2025, 17:26:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11924511
Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3
It's the last sentence which prompts me to comment further. First, the relevant excerpt from the Journal item:
"An NTSB spokesman said Homendy has been fully briefed on all aspects of the Air India investigation, including the cockpit voice recording and details from the flight-data recorder.

Homendy said her goal in working with Indian authorities was 'to quickly determine whether the crash presented any immediate safety concerns to the traveling public.'" (internal quotation as in original)

It's quite unlikely the NTSB spokesman would have said more than Chair Homendy had authorized. The content as to the scope of her review isn't the substantive part, but it does set the context for the quote from Ms. Homendy. Her statement refers to "quickly" making a determination about "immediate safety concerns." I read this as not referring only to the time after the Prelim Rpt was released, but all of NTSB's interactions with AAIB as of July 12.

We know no emergency (or other similar labels) ADs have been issued. Early on, when no such emergency ADs were issued, some people speculated that cover-up could be the reason why. And, recalling back to the first days as of July 12, there was wide recognition that a grounding order would have immense impact and consequences, given the widespread numbers in airline fleets.

But now, the Board Chair provides an attributable on-the-record statement about the need for immediacy, had there been an aircraft or engine problem. What I read as substantive is the confirmation from such an official source that no such problem has been shown to exist. Not a large segment of the "traveling public" let alone the public at large reads Accident Board reports, let alone preliminary editions. So in her giving an attributable statement, I read an intention to reach a wider and more general audience with the message, in effect, that the causal chain of this accident does not stem from an aircraft or engine problem implicating safety of flight.



Are you referring to a different or updated (after 19:00 US EDT 7-16-2025) WSJ article? Because that was the date and time of the piece headlined "New Details in Air India Crash Probe Shift Focus to Senior Pilot" and previously discussed here. This is the entirety of references to Homendy in that article:

Contents of the flight\x92s cockpit voice recorders have been tightly held by Indian authorities and seen as key to helping fill out the sequence of events in the flight\x92s final moments.

Jennifer Homendy, chairwoman of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, has sought to listen to the recording herself , according to people familiar with the matter.

An NTSB spokesman said that Homendy has been fully briefed on all aspects of the Air India investigation, including the cockpit voice recording and details from the flight data recorder. Homendy said her goal in working with Indian authorities was \x93to quickly determine whether the crash presented any immediate safety concerns to the traveling public.\x94
Emphasis mine.

Could you share a citation to the article (s) that include the Homendy statements to which you refer, please?

Subjects AAIB (All)  NTSB  Wall Street Journal

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes').

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

ex FE Hoppy
July 17, 2025, 18:11:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11924527
Originally Posted by 1stspotter
The switches are crucial in the investigation. This is a crash with a lot of politics. See how India media is reporting. It is almost a India versus the West discussion. I guess the AAIB included the SAIB to keep all options open, keep parties involved in the investigation happy and prevent that the investigation could be seen as biased. Hence to use of words like ' transitioned'.
And the FAA responded by issuing a notice that the switches are fine in responce to the Indian report which brought up an unrelated issue as if to muddy the facts.

Subjects AAIB (All)  FAA  Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes').

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

tdracer
July 17, 2025, 22:52:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11924692
Originally Posted by sabenaboy
It really baffles me how the French prosecutor was able to come out just two days after the Germanwings 9525 crash and lay out the likely cause in remarkable detail \x97 even identifying it as an apparent suicide by the co‑pilot. Yet here we are with the Air India 171 crash: it took the AAIB an entire month to release a so‑called \x93preliminary\x94 report, and even then it\x92s vague, incomplete and raises more questions than it answers.

To me, this is unacceptable. If the French could piece things together and be honest about it in 48 hours, the AAIB should have been able to do better than this.
First off, as has already been pointed out, the French prosecutor was not working to ICAO standards for an accident.
Ok, so they put in the preliminary report that the captain intentionally turned both fuel switches to CUTOFF, causing the crash. The Captain and his family is vilified, criminal investigations are launched. Vengeful relatives of those killed in the crash attack - perhaps even kill - members of the captain's family.
Then it turns out that it's NOT what happened... The captain's reputation and his family have already been destroyed - irreparable damage has been done, and no amount of retractions and apologies for the mistake are going to correct that.

Is it really too much to ask that we allow the investigation team to verify and validate their information before we throw someone to the wolves?

Subjects AAIB (All)  Fuel (All)  Fuel Cutoff Switches  ICAO  Preliminary Report  RUN/CUTOFF

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

10 recorded likes for this post.

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

andihce
July 17, 2025, 23:22:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11924716
Originally Posted by tdracer
Is it really too much to ask that we allow the investigation team to verify and validate their information before we throw someone to the wolves?
I understand the sentiment and sometimes wonder if myself I'm too easily accepting a very damning verdict on what happened, while trying to remain open to alternative possibilities (like the "brain fart" explanation).

We are all of course (perhaps rather morbidly) fascinated and curious about this incident, and trying to reason out what happened with insufficient data - well, at least I am. And to be honest, I am not nearly as concerned about "throwing someone [dead] to the wolves" (to put it rather harshly) than if the pilots had survived and their reputations and livelihoods would be threatened - I have read about plenty of cases where surviving pilots were innocent, even heroic and masterful in their efforts to save life, yet at least in the beginning, were falsely pilloried for what happened.

The difficulty with waiting for the Final AAIB Report comes with the possibility of malicious action. I don't know anything about Indian law, but I would imagine that if this incident had happened in the US, it would already be part of a criminal inquiry (not to mention lawsuits), and not simply under the jurisdiction of the NTSB.

Subjects AAIB (All)  Action slip  NTSB

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes').

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

za9ra22
July 18, 2025, 00:23:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11924759
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
IF the WSJ leak is correct, it may be because the US investigators are frustrated with the limited information from their Indian counterparts. Or just another way to attract readers and likes. Nobody knows.
Well, the US investigators are actually part of the investigation team as a whole, so they'll have access to just about everything. This early in the process, while the whole investigation is still coming together and into focus, the team leader can't really know what doesn't need sharing around the team as a whole, so everyone is typically in the loop. All team members are required to maintain confidentiality of course.

Exceptions to confidentiality are not untypically 'home' country investigation boards, so AAIB members may feed back to AAIB seniors, NTSB to the NTSB chairperson for example, but it's really rare for it go further. Reporters on the other hand want to get paid, and that means selling stories.

So yes, I think we do know.

Subjects AAIB (All)  NTSB  Wall Street Journal

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

2 recorded likes for this post.

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

jimtx
July 18, 2025, 04:23:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11924808
Originally Posted by tdracer
Yea DAR, it's time for another break. It's been days since anything really new has been posted - just hamster wheel arguments of the same theories, and even stuff that I thought had been thoroughly discredited, dead, and buried has come back to life (e.g. TCMA and the fuel condition switches both unilaterally changing state).

If something new comes up - then either reopen or someone can start a new one.
Yes, even the switch thing can go nowhere without "interim reports".
Spoiler
 


Last edited by T28B; 18th July 2025 at 14:32 . Reason: rant placed in the spoiler

Subjects AAIB (All)  AvHerald  FAA  Fuel (All)  Fuel Cutoff Switches  NTSB  Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes').

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

Senior Pilot
July 20, 2025, 19:33:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11925921
The full Flight Global article; those here who chose to put PPRuNe and themselves at risk of legal action by their accusations and emotive language may like to reflect and be more accurate in their contributions to this professional pilots forum in future.

US safety chief supports India’s Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau in urging media to avoid ‘premature narratives’ about the 12 June disaster that killed 260 people

The head of the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has criticised recent news stories about the 12 June crash of an Air India Boeing 787-8, aligning with a statement from India’s Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB).

“Recent media reports on the Air India 171 crash are premature and speculative,” NTSB chair Jennifer Homendy said on 18 July. “India’s Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau just released its preliminary report. Investigations of this magnitude take time.”

Homendy does not specify which media reports she takes issue with.

In recent days, The Wall Street Journal and Reuters, citing unnamed sources familiar with US officials’ assessment of evidence, reported that audio from the crashed jet’s cockpit voice recorder indicates the captain had moved the fuel control switches to the “CUTOFF” position. The reports said that the first officer was the pilot who asked why the switches had been moved.

A source who is also familiar with aspects of the investigation confirms that information to FlightGlobal.

Investigators have not released information to support such a scenario.

Jennifer Homendy Alaska briefing-c-NTSB

NTSB chair Jennifer Homendy warns against “speculative” media reports

The 787-8 was operating flight 171 from Ahmedabad to London Gatwick airport. It crashed shortly after taking off, killing 241 of 242 people aboard and 19 people on the ground.

The AAIB’s 11 July preliminary report said that about 3s after taking off, the two cockpit fuel control switches – each controls fuel to one of the jet’s two GE Aerospace GEnx turbofans – were switched to the “CUTOFF” position. The switch for the left-side engine moved first, with the right-side switch moving within about 1s.

The turbofans then lost thrust. One of the two pilots – the report did not specify which – asked the other why he moved the switch; the other then denied doing so.

Starting 10s after the switches were set to “CUTOFF”, both were switched back to “RUN”, causing the turbofans to begin restarting, but not in time to prevent the jet from crashing.

The 787’s flight data recorder noted the moment the actual physical switch moved to the “CUTOFF” position and then when it moved back to the “RUN” position, a source tells FlightGlobal. Those moments were plotted on a graph showing engine thrust falling off after the switches were moved to “CUTOFF”, and then returning after they were moved to “RUN”.

Because that data reflects the physical movement of the switch, a loss of fuel caused by another problem elsewhere in the 787’s electrical system is unlikely, the source says.

The Federal Aviation Administration on 11 July issued a Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community (CANIC) saying that the AAIB’s “investigation to date has found no urgent safety concerns related to the engines or airplane systems of the Boeing Model 787-8”.

On 17 July, the AAIB issued an “Appeal”, saying, “It has come to our attention that certain sections of the international media are repeatedly attempting to draw conclusions through selective and unverified reporting”.

“Such actions are irresponsible… We urge both the public and the media to refrain from spreading premature narratives that risk undermining the integrity of the investigative process,” it adds. “The AAIB appeals to all concerned to await publication of the final investigation report.”

Citing that document, the NTSB’s Homendy said on 18 July, “We fully support the AAIB’s public appeal… and will continue to support its ongoing investigation”.

The AAIB’s preliminary report also notes that the FAA issued a Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin in December 2018 about a “locking feature” within fuel control switches on several Boeing models, including 787s. The locking feature is a safety device that requires the switches be lifted before being transitioned. It involves raised nubs that the switch must transition over.

Boeing fuel control switch

A fuel control switch similar to that found on Boeing 787s, showing that the switch must transition over raised bumps

That 2018 bulletin warned about potential “disengagement” of the locking feature, which could allow the switches to “be moved between the two positions without lifting”, potentially causing “inadvertent” engine shutdown.

Though the FAA recommended inspections, its bulletin concluded that issue was “not an unsafe condition that would warrant airworthiness directive”.

The FAA reiterated that position in its 11 July CANIC, saying the fuel control switch design does not pose “an unsafe condition”.

Though the AAIB’s report cited the issue, it drew no link between it and the crash

Subjects AAIB (All)  Engine Failure (All)  Engine Shutdown  FAA  Fuel (All)  Fuel Cutoff Switches  GEnx (ALL)  NTSB  Preliminary Report  Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin  Wall Street Journal

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes').

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

T28B
July 25, 2025, 15:53:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11928262
https://aviationweek.com/air-transpo...N1000041876164
From the article by Guy Norris of Aviation Week... Air India 787 Crash Being Investigated As ‘Criminal Act,’ Says Safety Expert
Guy Norris July 23, 2025

LAS VEGAS—India’s Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB) is now looking into the June 12 crash of an Air India Boeing 787-8 as an intentional act, says veteran safety consultant and former NTSB investigator Greg Feith . The AAIB’s preliminary report on July 12 revealed that fuel cutoff switches for the 787’s two GE Aerospace GEnx-1B engines were transitioned from “run” to “cutoff” around three seconds after takeoff from Ahmedabad Airport. Although both fuel switches were turned back on within a further 14 sec., the aircraft was too low to recover and impacted trees and buildings, killing 241 of 242 occupants on the 787 and 19 on the ground.The AAIB has criticized subsequent western media reports as “irresponsible” for indicating the fuel cutoff switches were likely deliberately moved by one of the pilots.
However, Feith says: “It has become very apparent, especially now with information I know and what's come out about the cockpit voice recorder—where the question is heard ‘why did you cut off the fuel?’—[that] somebody had to have seen that action to make that statement. You just wouldn’t have a dual-engine failure.”

Speaking at the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Aviation forum here in Las Vegas, Feith says: “Something had to prompt that type of comment. Now we get into the psychology part of it, and that's really where this investigation is going to go. “And oh, by the way, it's no longer an accident. It's investigated as a criminal event, just like EgyptAir, just like Germanwings, just like SilkAir. These are criminal events—intentional acts,” he adds, referring to three fatal crashes deemed to have been deliberately caused which occurred in 1999, 2015 and 1997 respectively.

Feith, who participated in the investigation into the SilkAir crash—where a Boeing 737-300 traveling from Jakarta to Singapore was downed—says other theories continue to persist in the face of contradictory evidence provided by the AAIB. “To this day, people are still talking about this as a dual-engine failure, despite the fact that the AAIB came out with a preliminary report which gave some initial findings. They said at this stage of the investigation, there are no recommended actions for the 787-8 or the engines. They just exonerated the airplane. They just exonerated the engines.”

“The junior investigators and the trolls are still making a big deal about engine failure, software issues, FADEC problems. They're not part of the process,” Feith continues. The AAIB “had a team of subject matter experts dissecting all of this in that 30-day period. You think they didn't look at that? It makes no logical sense,” he adds.

“The fact is that now we have people all spooled up looking at the wrong thing instead of looking at, 'is this an isolated problem or a systemic event?' It's the first major accident for a brand-new airplane [type]. This is the kind of controversy that gets stirred up and distracts us from really looking at where we need to be and what we need to be doing to enhance aviation safety,” Feith says.

Referencing the SilkAir accident, he says: “I've been down this road. I spent two years working on SilkAir in Palembang, Sumatra. I took a team of investigators over with me from Boeing and the engine manufacturer, the FAA and a variety of others, and we determined in concert with their National Transportation Safety Committee, that this was an intentional act.”
If / when we get confirmation that India is indeed going ahead with a criminal investigation, we'll re open this thread.

Subjects AAIB (All)  Engine Failure (All)  FAA  FADEC  Fuel (All)  Fuel Cutoff  Fuel Cutoff Switches  NTSB  Preliminary Report

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes').

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

Senior Pilot
September 23, 2025, 01:32:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11958049
Just FYI: Air India crash aftermath handled 'irresponsibly', says court

7 hours ago | Faarea Masud | Business reporter
The highest court in India has strongly criticised the country's aviation authorities for their handling of the aftermath of the Air India plane crash that killed 261 people in June.

Leaving only one survivor , the flight bound for Gatwick airport from Ahmedabad crashed shortly after taking off, killing 242 passengers on board and 19 others on the ground.

The court said it was "irresponsible" for the aviation authority to suggest, through leaks to the media, that pilot error had caused the disaster.

It called on Indian prime minister Narendra Modi for the government's response before it rules on a case filed by activists demanding an independent investigation.

The court said the way the aviation body released its preliminary report in to the Boeing Dreamliner's crash was "selective and piecemeal".

The preliminary report, publishedby India's Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB) in July, said fuel supply to the engines was cut off just seconds after take-off.

The report also said one of the pilots was heard asking the other "why did he cut off" in a cockpit voice recording, with another pilot responding that he did not do so.

The recording doesn't clarify who said what. At the time of take-off, the co-pilot was flying the aircraft while the captain was monitoring.

But the findings of the report have been challenged by aviation safety group Safety Matters Foundation, which is calling for an independent investigation into the crash.

In a court hearing overseeing the aviation safety group's petition, one of India's Supreme Court judges said that suggestions that the pilots deliberately shut off fuel supply were "very unfortunate and irresponsible".

The crash has left many questioning the safety of India's airspace.

The chief of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGAC) has defended the safety record of the country , telling the BBC in July that "India's skies have always been safe".

That same month, the DGCA uncovered 51 safety violations at Air India in the preceding year , as part of its annual audit of the country's airlines.

The families of four passengers who died on the plane filed a lawsuit in the US against planemaker Boeing and aircraft parts maker Honeywell, accusing the companies of negligence.

The lawsuit accused the companies of doing "nothing" despite being aware of the risks of the aircraft's design.

Last edited by T28B; 23rd September 2025 at 19:45 . Reason: formatting at the top

Subjects AAIB (All)  BBC  DGCA  Fuel (All)  Fuel Cutoff Switches  Honeywell  Preliminary Report

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes').

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

Musician
November 07, 2025, 19:01:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11984922
Originally Posted by sitigeltfel
This is the Supreme Court Judge, Justice Surya Kant, who has decided the Captain was not to blame.
That's not what it was about.

From the Reuters article:
Nov 7 (Reuters) - India's top court said on Friday that a preliminary report on an Air India crash that killed 260 people in June does not insinuate anything against the captain, but it will hear a plea from the pilot's father on November 10 for an independent probe.
So the question was: did the preliminary report blame the Captain?
I agree with the judge that it did not.

It's a father who wants a court to tell everyone that his son did nothing wrong.
It's understandable, but I'd rather wait for the facts to emerge.

But given this legal climate, I fear the AAIB might withhold the final report, as they're likely to get sued over it if they publish.

Subjects AAIB (All)  Preliminary Report

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

4 recorded likes for this post.

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

ATC Watcher
November 07, 2025, 20:52:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11984971
Originally Posted by Musician
t given this legal climate, I fear the AAIB might withhold the final report, as they're likely to get sued over it if they publish.
The preliminary did not blame the captain but suggested one of the pilots did shut down the engines without saying who it was and without commenting further. fueling all kind of wild theories.. This has upset a lot of people from the pilots families , but also the main Indian Pilots Association , especially since they now have to wait at least a year of so to get the truth unfold.
The worst part is that the AAIB has now lost the trust of the pilots , so whatever they write now will be suspected, and cooperation might suffer, but I do not think it will prevent them from publishing a final report..,

Subjects AAIB (All)

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes').

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

WillowRun 6-3
November 08, 2025, 00:38:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11985058
Originally Posted by tdracer
Sadly, people will sue anyone with deep pockets - regardless of the facts.
Prime example, Boeing was sued for the Bagram 747-400F crash - after the report was released that the inadequate, overloaded cargo tie-down straps had failed causing the cargo shift.
Always, the deep pockets.

But those kinds of cases are claims seeking to establish liability for an accident. This case is seeking to establish non-liability and do so in advance of completion of the Annex 13 investigation.

The case appears to be a claim against the way the AAIB has fulfilled (or not fulfilled) its Annex 13 duties and responsibilities. I haven't read the filing completely yet, so perhaps there's some aspect to it which could make it seem reasonable. But as things stand, I am unaware of any precedent, in any sovereign jurisdiction (State Partys to the Chicago Convention of 1944), allowing court action against the Annex 13 authority in a given country in general, or to establish non-liability of a principal actor involved in the accident before the investigation is complete.

Sure, if the AAIB staff steal your car and kidnap your wife, and offer you the choice of which you will get back, then among other claims I guess under India's laws you could file a claim for arbitrary and capricious decision-making by the staff and that they abused their discretion. But court action seeking to modify the conduct of the investigation? Mark me down as skeptical.

Subjects AAIB (All)  Annex 13

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

1 recorded likes for this post.

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

Musician
November 28, 2025, 13:41:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11997203
Originally Posted by LondonSpotter
'it appears to be a broken link - does anyone have the right one?' and then when I googled AI171 multiple failures 48 hours it did finally take me to what appears to be the article.
original source: https://thefederal.com/category/busi...failure-217674
In Part 1, 2 and 3 of The Federal investigation into the Air India 171 crash, we looked at how core network degradation caused multi-component failure, and how the airline has been speeding up extensive D-check of its Dreamliners.
In part 4, we will look into how the Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau's (AAIB) report mentions a stabilizer trim sensor issue on the previous flight (Al 423 Delhi-Ahmedabad) of the same plane, but does not mention a bigger problem with the stabilizer motor unit.

The Federal has gained access to the Aircraft Health Management (AHM) report that was sent to Boeing at 9.48 am IST (for Flight Al 423) that shows not only was the sensor showing stabilizer position malfunctioning but also the electronic control box that drives one of the tail-trim motors called the horizontal stabilizer electric motor control unit (EMCU). Both were replaced and the plane released for flight.
.
As yet unconfirmed.

Edit: I should probably explain that I posted this so we can reference what The Federal actually wrote, and don't need to discuss secondhand paraphrases of it. As long as it's unconfirmed, I don't believe any of it.

Last edited by Musician; 29th November 2025 at 09:00 .

Subjects AAIB (All)  AI171

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes').

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

Someone Somewhere
November 28, 2025, 20:11:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11997382
Originally Posted by Musician
The Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT), a critical post-crash distress beacon, was never activated, as per the AAIB report. It was recovered intact in the wreckage, yet it was silent.A CCS/core network failure would not by itself stop the transmission from an ELT’s automatic g-switch — which is a gravity (g) switch with a sensor that detects sudden changes in acceleration (g-forces) that typically occur during a crash.

That is, unless the ELT’s antenna and wiring had melted in a fire — and one possible pointer to that is a Category A fault logged on AI 171’s Nitrogen Generation System (NGS), a safety feature Boeing added to prevent fuel tank fires in the aftermath of the Trans World Airlines Flight 800’s midair explosion due to a central fuel tank ignition in 1996.

The NGS works by continuously flooding the tail fuel tank’s ullage (the empty space above the fuel) with nitrogen-rich air, displacing oxygen and thereby preventing the build-up of flammable vapours.

If the NGS were not functioning, the oxygen levels around the aft-fuel tank bay may have been dangerously high. In that scenario, even a small spark—possibly from an electric arc or surge—could ignite a localised fuel-air vapour fire. That would have burnt the wiring and antenna of the ELT and wiring, connectors, and housing of tail-section black box or the aft Enhanced Airborne Flight Recorder (EAFR). And this scenario would be in line with the AAIB report, which shows the tail section was more structurally intact compared to the nose.
We're back to this rubbish.

There's a good 20m of cabin between the centre fuel tanks (there is no 'aft fuel tank bay' on a 787) and the ELT/aft EAFR which are IIRC more-or-less above the rear doors.

The rest isn't much better.

I also see no mention of the fact that virtually everything in the CCS/CDN/CCRs is at least duplicated.

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 29th November 2025 at 03:07 . Reason: Add source of the quote

Subjects AAIB (All)  DFDR  EAFR

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

4 recorded likes for this post.

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

WillowRun 6-3
November 28, 2025, 21:14:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11997410
"We're back to this rubbish" ..... indeed, and because many folks in all manner of occupations and professions believe that most attorneys should justify busy themselves with taking the trash out, I'm going to try.

Reference is made to the series of posts above, starting with 1524 (Nov. 7) noting then-new legal developments in India, through 1533 (Nov. 7) in which Someone Somewhere included - very helpfully! - links to a lawsuit filed in India seeking an independent investigation and a "report" (so-called by its writer) entitled, "Flight [Air India] 171: Analyzing Electrical System Anomalies"; this so-called report was written by one Capt. Amit Singh and captioned with the name "Safety Matters Foundation" - Gurukul for Safety." I'm not taking the time to look up in some translation source whether Gurukul is a form of "Guru" which would place Capt. Singh on familiar terrain for the flower children in the 1967 Summer of Love . . . but I digress.

In another post there is a link to a report by the BBC (Nov. 7, by Theo Leggett) in which it is noted that the India Supreme Court was "considering a petition" filed - in some process which I admit is entirely unclear to me - and that during some sort of preliminary process or hearing, one judge remarked, with reference to the petitioner's son, i.e., the Captain (PM), "nobody can blame him for anything."

Now, why rehearse these crosss-references here? -- because I'm trying to find out if a comment I read earlier today on the Wall Street Journal website was accurate or not. That commenter, besides assailing the leaks of information from the investigation (and impliedly, the proliferation of screwball "analyses', possibly lofted into the ethersphere by Artificial Typing Pools) asserted that there probably have not been other instances where a properly constituted and convened Annex 13 accident panel was challenged in ligitation in the investigating country. If there are one or more such cases like the one filed in India which have proceeded somewhere else, oh boy would I have a guest lecture to pitch to certain Air and Space Law faculties. And similarly, precedent for a parent or anyone related to an aviator who perished in a civil aviation accident filing a petition seeking to exonerate their family member - has this ever been litigated at all, anywhere?

And there's a second reason. I think it's no coincidence that the publishers of the Wall Street Journal decided that the time had come to go public with the reporting in the article currently on its website. I think I would get one hundred percent concurrence if I asked actual pro's on this forum whether Chairwoman Homendy proved herself to be a tough customer (sorry for the vernacular or slang but "no-nonsense" just isn't colorful, I mean lawyerly, enough) in how she conducted the DCA hearing a few months ago. In other words, it's entirely believable and reasonable to understand Chair Homendy taking pretty tight control over the activities of the U.S. parties in India as described in the article.

And with rubbish reports circulating, time to get some perspective into the public domain. In fact, maybe I've got the timing backwards. Realizing the goings-on in India with NTSB and other U.S. representatives were going to be disclosed at some not-distant time, whatever this outfit "The Federal" really is, it tried to -- rubbish up the public discussion. One thing seems certain, though. With the newly-elected Chair of the ICAO Council taking office soon, and given that diplomats of Japan (with aviation matters portfolios) probably are pretty tough customers, i.e., no-nonsense, too, the fiasco which the AAIB process has become certainly will be lurking in the corridors in Montreal.

Last edited by WillowRun 6-3; 28th November 2025 at 21:31 .

Subjects AAIB (All)  Annex 13  BBC  ICAO  NTSB  Wall Street Journal

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

2 recorded likes for this post.

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

WillowRun 6-3
November 29, 2025, 02:54:00 GMT
permalink
Post: 11997519
Originally Posted by Someone Somewhere
I assume you're familiar with the events surrounding the Mt Erebus disaster ? (I'm not, really).
Many thanks for noting this accident and its significance with regard for both investigations of accidents and their causes, and litigation concerning such investigations.

I didn't make it explictly clear earlier, but there is a difference between court action challenging the outcome of a completed investigation, and the situation in India in which the investigation's outcome is yet to be determined. Some might argue that most of the results of the AAIB investigation can already be accurately predicted because the material facts already are clear enough, and so it is quite similar to the NZ Mt Erebus case. But it also is a material fact that a final investigation report, and the preliminary status of the continuing Air India investigation, are different things.

Another parallel is that the Mahon inquiry sought to exonerate the pilots, much as the parent of the Air India Captain (PM) is trying to do. Again, however, in the Air India situation the final report is yet to be determined.

I was not familiar with the case NZ Mt Erebus case. I recall reading something about it at a time when I was advising a client whose parent had been a heavy transport pilot in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam war and then an airline FO and Captain for a U.S. major carrier. According to my client her parent had flown to Antarctica and (she informed me) this was considered a relatively rare accomplishment. But the client had a stark and intense aversion to hearing anything about aircraft accidents and so, looking back, when I read something about the accident I just filed it away and didn't acquire any other information, and clearly not familiarity.

So the situation in India is not as unprecedented as I thought (and said). Even so, together with a segment on the NZ Mt Erebus case, it would add to public international air law curricula, someday maybe.

Subjects AAIB (All)

Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context.

2 recorded likes for this post.

Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.