Leonakua
November 29, 2025, 17:50:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11997858

Never give up

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3

Many thanks for noting this accident and its significance with regard for both investigations of accidents and their causes, and litigation concerning such investigations.

I didn't make it explictly clear earlier, but there is a difference between court action challenging the outcome of a completed investigation, and the situation in India in which the investigation's outcome is yet to be determined. Some might argue that most of the results of the AAIB investigation can already be accurately predicted because the material facts already are clear enough, and so it is quite similar to the NZ Mt Erebus case. But it also is a material fact that a final investigation report, and the preliminary status of the continuing Air India investigation, are different things.

Another parallel is that the Mahon inquiry sought to exonerate the pilots, much as the parent of the Air India Captain (PM) is trying to do. Again, however, in the Air India situation the final report is yet to be determined.

I was not familiar with the case NZ Mt Erebus case. I recall reading something about it at a time when I was advising a client whose parent had been a heavy transport pilot in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam war and then an airline FO and Captain for a U.S. major carrier. According to my client her parent had flown to Antarctica and (she informed me) this was considered a relatively rare accomplishment. But the client had a stark and intense aversion to hearing anything about aircraft accidents and so, looking back, when I read something about the accident I just filed it away and didn't acquire any other information, and clearly not familiarity.

So the situation in India is not as unprecedented as I thought (and said). Even so, together with a segment on the NZ Mt Erebus case, it would add to public international air law curricula, someday maybe.

"Wait for the report".

One might ask....why? Everything publicly recorded, reported, and speculated upon is in public domain. Patiently waiting for approval and reporting from those directly (and in my opinion extralegally) retaining in secret important evidence is part of the problem. Am I too too cynical? Public white papers are written generally by those who are employed by politicians, not by the public, though some would argue that is not legally accurate .....

"So the situation in India is not as unprecedented as I thought (and said). Even so, together with a segment on the NZ Mt Erebus case, it would add to public international air law curricula, someday maybe."
Inre Kentucky
Those harmed, and must be made whole, are the citizens of Louisville, and environs.
Jurisdiction belongs to those who claim it. There is well understood legal framework for following settled law. County, Township, Grand Jury, Sheriff, etc

But the airport is owned by the Federal Government? Probably leased to. ... That does not give the Fed jurisdiction, it makes the Fed a defendant.

Last edited by Leonakua; 29th November 2025 at 18:21 .

Subjects AAIB (All)

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Leonakua
November 29, 2025, 18:27:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11997878

Quote:

Originally Posted by TURIN

AAIBs the world over are there to determine why accidents happen and to offer advise to mitigate a repeat.
They are not there to apportion blame.

Not wrong, they are there to write history....holding all the evidence....what could possibly go sideways...

AAIB INDIA...... Not trying to establish blame? Blatantly setting the foundation for same?

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wrench1
November 29, 2025, 21:28:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11997946

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

Not necessarily. I do not speak for how accident investigators do their job, and what information they choose to make public or not,

To add, most aviation investigative bureaus have defined rules and guidance on what is released in the reports, public dockets, and other documents. But agree, not all investigative materials or results are publicly released for various reasons. For example, a quick review of the NTSB rules and major investigative process along with the Indian AAIB rules and process give an idea of that guidance.

And just to note on a comment about US airport ownership, outside of most military airports and 2 civilian airports in the DC area, all other airports are owned at the state or local levels, with a number considered private entities. For example, the Louisville airport (SDF) is owned and operated by a public corporation formed under state law which is common for most large hub airports in the US.

Subjects AAIB (All) AAIB (India) NTSB

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TURIN
November 30, 2025, 11:52:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11998199

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonakua

I'm not sure what your agenda is here.
Accident investigation is nothing to do with history it's to do with facts. Nothing more, nothing less.
They don't hold the evidence, they examine it!

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WillowRun 6-3
December 02, 2025, 17:37:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11999288

Regarding this particular accident and the continuing investigation, there is a reason to keep the thread open. There are evidently two legal actions pending in India which seek to redirect the conduct of and/or authority over the AAIB process. (One action by the Captain's (PM) parent, and the second by an ostensibly safety-related group - I haven't seen anything indicating these are actually the same court action.)

One could argue that just like waiting for the final AAIB report to be released, interested observers should just wait for further developments in the court case, and there's no need for a thread to keep open. Except for one important distinction: during the continuing AAIB investigation process, the AAIB - according to best practices as I understand them to exist - is required to say nothing until it issues its complete, final report on the accident. The court actions, by contrast, have some likelihood of producing streams of activities and developments. There court actions, which again directly challenge the conduct of and/or authority over the AAIB investigation, do appear quite unusual enough (if not unprecedented actually) to justify keeping the thread open (but of course, subject to forum participants keepin' it real).

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ATC Watcher
December 06, 2025, 09:34:00 GMT
permalink Post: 12001248

From what I understood from a US staff ,( second hand) indeed the whole US delegation ( not only NTSB) and the AAIB started on the wrong foot from the very beginning . Not sure who started , but looks like personalities involved did not match; Some believed they would be treated as equals while the others wanted to be sure to lead ,then suspicions of having different motives came up , etc.. The "risk to staff" to transfer to Korwa was just an excuse to make a point. , because , as Asturias 56 said , bringing the recorders there was logic for the AAIB . Politically it was not ., hence the mess they are in now.

Subjects AAIB (All) NTSB

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Leonakua November 29, 2025, 17:50:00 GMT permalink Post: 11997858	Never give up Quote: Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3 Many thanks for noting this accident and its significance with regard for both investigations of accidents and their causes, and litigation concerning such investigations. I didn't make it explictly clear earlier, but there is a difference between court action challenging the outcome of a completed investigation, and the situation in India in which the investigation's outcome is yet to be determined. Some might argue that most of the results of the AAIB investigation can already be accurately predicted because the material facts already are clear enough, and so it is quite similar to the NZ Mt Erebus case. But it also is a material fact that a final investigation report, and the preliminary status of the continuing Air India investigation, are different things. Another parallel is that the Mahon inquiry sought to exonerate the pilots, much as the parent of the Air India Captain (PM) is trying to do. Again, however, in the Air India situation the final report is yet to be determined. I was not familiar with the case NZ Mt Erebus case. I recall reading something about it at a time when I was advising a client whose parent had been a heavy transport pilot in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam war and then an airline FO and Captain for a U.S. major carrier. According to my client her parent had flown to Antarctica and (she informed me) this was considered a relatively rare accomplishment. But the client had a stark and intense aversion to hearing anything about aircraft accidents and so, looking back, when I read something about the accident I just filed it away and didn't acquire any other information, and clearly not familiarity. So the situation in India is not as unprecedented as I thought (and said). Even so, together with a segment on the NZ Mt Erebus case, it would add to public international air law curricula, someday maybe. "Wait for the report". One might ask....why? Everything publicly recorded, reported, and speculated upon is in public domain. Patiently waiting for approval and reporting from those directly (and in my opinion extralegally) retaining in secret important evidence is part of the problem. Am I too too cynical? Public white papers are written generally by those who are employed by politicians, not by the public, though some would argue that is not legally accurate ..... "So the situation in India is not as unprecedented as I thought (and said). Even so, together with a segment on the NZ Mt Erebus case, it would add to public international air law curricula, someday maybe." Inre Kentucky Those harmed, and must be made whole, are the citizens of Louisville, and environs. Jurisdiction belongs to those who claim it. There is well understood legal framework for following settled law. County, Township, Grand Jury, Sheriff, etc But the airport is owned by the Federal Government? Probably leased to. ... That does not give the Fed jurisdiction, it makes the Fed a defendant. Last edited by Leonakua; 29th November 2025 at 18:21 . Subjects AAIB (All) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Leonakua November 29, 2025, 18:27:00 GMT permalink Post: 11997878	Quote: Originally Posted by TURIN AAIBs the world over are there to determine why accidents happen and to offer advise to mitigate a repeat. They are not there to apportion blame. Not wrong, they are there to write history....holding all the evidence....what could possibly go sideways... AAIB INDIA...... Not trying to establish blame? Blatantly setting the foundation for same? Subjects AAIB (All) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
wrench1 November 29, 2025, 21:28:00 GMT permalink Post: 11997946	Quote: Originally Posted by Pilot DAR Not necessarily. I do not speak for how accident investigators do their job, and what information they choose to make public or not, To add, most aviation investigative bureaus have defined rules and guidance on what is released in the reports, public dockets, and other documents. But agree, not all investigative materials or results are publicly released for various reasons. For example, a quick review of the NTSB rules and major investigative process along with the Indian AAIB rules and process give an idea of that guidance. And just to note on a comment about US airport ownership, outside of most military airports and 2 civilian airports in the DC area, all other airports are owned at the state or local levels, with a number considered private entities. For example, the Louisville airport (SDF) is owned and operated by a public corporation formed under state law which is common for most large hub airports in the US. Subjects AAIB (All) AAIB (India) NTSB Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 3 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
TURIN November 30, 2025, 11:52:00 GMT permalink Post: 11998199	Quote: Originally Posted by Leonakua Not wrong, they are there to write history....holding all the evidence....what could possibly go sideways... AAIB INDIA...... Not trying to establish blame? Blatantly setting the foundation for same? I'm not sure what your agenda is here. Accident investigation is nothing to do with history it's to do with facts. Nothing more, nothing less. They don't hold the evidence, they examine it! Subjects AAIB (All) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 2 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
WillowRun 6-3 December 02, 2025, 17:37:00 GMT permalink Post: 11999288	Regarding this particular accident and the continuing investigation, there is a reason to keep the thread open. There are evidently two legal actions pending in India which seek to redirect the conduct of and/or authority over the AAIB process. (One action by the Captain's (PM) parent, and the second by an ostensibly safety-related group - I haven't seen anything indicating these are actually the same court action.) One could argue that just like waiting for the final AAIB report to be released, interested observers should just wait for further developments in the court case, and there's no need for a thread to keep open. Except for one important distinction: during the continuing AAIB investigation process, the AAIB - according to best practices as I understand them to exist - is required to say nothing until it issues its complete, final report on the accident. The court actions, by contrast, have some likelihood of producing streams of activities and developments. There court actions, which again directly challenge the conduct of and/or authority over the AAIB investigation, do appear quite unusual enough (if not unprecedented actually) to justify keeping the thread open (but of course, subject to forum participants keepin' it real). Subjects AAIB (All) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 4 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
ATC Watcher December 06, 2025, 09:34:00 GMT permalink Post: 12001248	From what I understood from a US staff ,( second hand) indeed the whole US delegation ( not only NTSB) and the AAIB started on the wrong foot from the very beginning . Not sure who started , but looks like personalities involved did not match; Some believed they would be treated as equals while the others wanted to be sure to lead ,then suspicions of having different motives came up , etc.. The "risk to staff" to transfer to Korwa was just an excuse to make a point. , because , as Asturias 56 said , bringing the recorders there was logic for the AAIB . Politically it was not ., hence the mess they are in now. Subjects AAIB (All) NTSB Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

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