Posts about: "EAFR" [Posts: 87 Pages: 5]

Musician
2025-06-17T10:51:00
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Post: 11904195
Enhanced Airborne Flight Recorder (EAFR)

Originally Posted by Squawk7700
How could the CVR have been "read out" if the CVR hasn't yet been located?
The flight recorder on the 787 is called "enhanced airborne flight recorder" (EAFR), and it's a combination unit with CVR and FDR functionality. There are two on the aircraft, the one in the front has battery backup.
Since it has been reported that the "FDR" was found, they also have the "CVR".

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Lord Bracken
2025-06-17T18:13:00
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Post: 11904527
Originally Posted by cats_five
It took much more than a few days for the 737 Max to be grounded
Absolutely. This confidence that the EAFR has already been read is misplaced. It\x92s a specialist piece of equipment and probably can\x92t even be downloaded in India. It\x92s most likely on its way to the NTSB, the BEA or the AAIB (UK) for analysis which will be done under strict conditions (for obvious reasons).

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DIBO
2025-06-17T18:54:00
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Post: 11904567
Originally Posted by Lord Bracken
Absolutely. This confidence that the EAFR has already been read is misplaced. It\x92s a specialist piece of equipment and probably can\x92t even be downloaded in India. It\x92s most likely on its way to the NTSB, the BEA or the AAIB (UK) for analysis which will be done under strict conditions (for obvious reasons).
While reading this post, I was wondering whether the opening just last April and with much bravado (if I might say), of the brand-new, state-of-the-art FDR-lab and CVR-lab in Delhi, would not be an important 'political' factor deciding where the EAFR(s) are going to be processed.
An if they decide to do it locally, they will take their time (I hope) not to screw up their moment de gloire

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DaveReidUK
2025-06-17T19:03:00
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Post: 11904575
Originally Posted by Lord Bracken
Absolutely. This confidence that the EAFR has already been read is misplaced. It’s a specialist piece of equipment and probably can’t even be downloaded in India. It’s most likely on its way to the NTSB, the BEA or the AAIB (UK) for analysis which will be done under strict conditions (for obvious reasons).
It isn't. It's essentially just a CVR and FDR in the same box. The main USP is that you now have two of each, about as far apart from each other as possible on the aircraft.

Each is downloaded separately in pretty much the same way as always.

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DaveReidUK
2025-06-17T20:00:00
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Post: 11904606
Originally Posted by Lord Bracken
I was referring to CVR/FDRs in general being specialist equipment requiring specialist facilities to process. In any case, I would be very interested to find out where those from this accident are read. It appears from a post upthread there are new facilities in New Dehli that could be used. Having said that, for the EK 521 accident in Dubai the recorders were sent to the UK for analysis, despite a "flight data recorder centre" in Abu Dhabi being opened (again with much fanfare) by the UAE GCAA five years before the occurrence.
The Indian AAIB successfully downloaded both FDR and CVR data from an Air India 787's EAFR relating to an incident in 2018, so your misgivings on that account are unfounded.

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OldnGrounded
2025-06-17T20:23:00
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Post: 11904625
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
The Indian AAIB successfully downloaded both FDR and CVR data from an Air India 787's EAFR relating to an incident in 2018, so your misgivings on that account are unfounded.
And they do have a new lab, as of this past April:

AAIB sets up flight recorders laboratory

New Delhi, Apr 9 (PTI) Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB) has set up a flight recorders laboratory that will help it in carrying out more effective probes into accidents.
Civil Aviation Minister K Rammohan Naidu inaugurated the laboratory in the AAIB premises in the national capital on Wednesday.
More at linked site. The lab opening is also featured in the slide show on the top page of the AAIB website, following a series of slides for International Yoga Day.

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Lord Bracken
2025-06-17T20:24:00
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Post: 11904626
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
The Indian AAIB successfully downloaded both FDR and CVR data from an Air India 787's EAFR relating to an incident in 2018, so your misgivings on that account are unfounded.
I have no misgivings, I\x92m just challenging the assertion that because the recorders have been found, they have already been read. There\x92s any number of reasons why they may not have been read yet, in India or anywhere else.

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DaveReidUK
2025-06-17T21:29:00
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Post: 11904679
Originally Posted by DIBO
the difference may lay in the content that was recorded and not so much the 2 identical EAFR's. Only the forward EAFR is connected to a dedicated backup battery (RIPS) which also provides backup power to the Cockpit Area Microphone. So in case of a major electrical power mishap, the forward - and likely (externally?) damaged - EAFR might be crucial for recovering all available CVRecordings. Hence the somewhat understandable split-up in news-reports, between FDR data (from the rear EAFR) and complete CVR recordings (from the forward).
Absolutely.

If the aft EAFR ceased recording at the point (just short of the runway end) where the ADS-B and likely everything else went dark, then the extra 30 seconds of CVR recording from the forward recorder could well be crucial to the investigation.
unworry
2025-06-17T21:35:00
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Post: 11904689
Originally Posted by PC767
. . .
Investigations of all types first establish what happened, then how and why, before recommendations and actions. There is a possibility that they know the what, but the how and why incur liability.
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
The Indian AAIB successfully downloaded both FDR and CVR data from an Air India 787's EAFR relating to an incident in 2018, so your misgivings on that account are unfounded.
Could the fellow who was cited as having heard the CVR and commended the pilot's actions.... because he trained under the Captain, and would be familiar with his speech, have been bought in to validate who was speaking on the transcript?

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Gary Brown
2025-06-18T07:18:00
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Post: 11904984
Up above - apologies I can't find the post... - someone mentioned that the EAFRs might send data wirelessly..... Here's the GE "brochure" for the current EAFR (although I am not certain exactly which model would be on the subject aircraft):

https://www.geaerospace.com/sites/de...rder-3254F.pdf

which is an interesting read on what EAFR can and can't (or at least, doesn't) do. It's clear - to me - from that document that wireless data transmission is not a feature of the EAFR. Basically, ethernet cable only. Some data acessible on the aircraft itself, some (CVR in particular) only available when the EAFR is in the lab.

One thing I did not know is:

The Image Recorder growth function is used to record visual images of the flight deck instruments, flight deck, the aircraft structures, and engines as required.

The final two words of course mean that Air India 787s might, or might not, have that feature enabled. And indeed, it being called a "growth function" probably means "not currently implemented"....

Last edited by Gary Brown; 18th Jun 2025 at 07:53 . Reason: Query on "growth function" meaning.

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Semreh
2025-06-18T08:19:00
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Post: 11905017
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Absolutely.

If the aft EAFR ceased recording at the point (just short of the runway end) where the ADS-B and likely everything else went dark, then the extra 30 seconds of CVR recording from the forward recorder could well be crucial to the investigation.
SLF here. Please excuse some ignorant questions, and please delete if this is simply contributing to the 'noise':

1) Why would the Aft EAFR stop recording if the main battery were available?

2) The Aft EAFR has its own dedicated analogue connection from the CAM. Is it the case that other relevant audio streams are not generated and/or transported over the fibre-optic data network to the Aft EAFR when on (main) battery power alone?

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Gary Brown
2025-06-19T09:20:00
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Post: 11905856
Originally Posted by DType
Not clear. Is it only the front black box which is badly damaged? The plural "Recorders" may refer to voice and data recorders in the one box.
And if the rear box does not ave battery back up, then even if undamaged, it may not have all the desired information.
The forward installed EAFR along with the Cockpit Area Microphone and Preamplifier are typically connected to the Recorder Independent Power Supply (RIPS), providing a backup power source for 10 minutes in the event of power interruptions.

https://www.geaerospace.com/sites/de...rder-3254F.pdf

The rear EAFR doesn't have power backup. So it will only record data (both CVR and FDR) while it has normal electrical power. At what point before impact that power was lost, we do not know.

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Icarus2001
2025-06-19T09:21:00
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Post: 11905858
Air India plane crash: Black box of 787 Dreamliner to be sent to US for data recovery; ‘recorders sustained heavy damage…’
So to be clear, this was announced of Thursday 19 June. The one EAFR was recovered on Friday 13 June I believe and one on Sunday 15 June.

Seems a long while to wait to send it to the US.

would the logic have a brain fart and revert back to HOLD?
No it would not revert back to HOLD.

​​​​​​​ At what point before impact that power was lost, we do not know.
​​​​​​​
Someone made a radio call near the end of the flight, so some power was available.
Icarus2001
2025-06-20T04:45:00
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Post: 11906589
it will likely require a forensic teardown of the control systems of the engine to determine what damage may have occurred before impact.
​​​​​​​I have a more optimistic view that recovery of TWO EAFR units will mean a great deal will be known on analysis of this data.
sabenaboy
2025-06-20T07:45:00
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Post: 11906669
Originally Posted by Musician

"Both engines failed or shut off close to rotation" explains all of the evidence : it explains an unremarkable take-off roll, loss of lift, absence of pronounced yaw, loss of electrical power, loss of the ADS-B transponder, RAT deployment, the noise of the RAT banging into place and revving up, emergency signs lighting up, a possible mayday call reporting loss of thrust/power/lift, and a physically plausible glide from a little over 200 ft AAL to a crash site 50 feet (?) below aerodrome elevation.
It explains what we saw on the videos, what the witness reported, where the aircraft ended up, and the ensuing sudden catastrophe.

I don't believe we have evidence for anything else right now—I'd be happily corrected on that.
You're absolutely right, Musician! Your text in bold print is what happened! And you and I and many other pilots know what the most probale cause for that is. What evidence do we need?
The EAFR will tell the story, but the reason for the crash will always remain a "mystery" because the B787 was not equipped with EPTPR's! ( E nhanced P ilot's T hought P rocess R ecorders)

I think AI171 will go down in history with MSR990 an MH370.
xetroV
2025-06-20T08:09:00
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Post: 11906692
Originally Posted by Icarus2001
I have a more optimistic view that recovery of TWO EAFR units will mean a great deal will be known on analysis of this data.
Do both EAFRs run on emergency power? Could it be possible that only ONE (if any) EAFR unit was recording after the supposed loss of thrust on both engines? If the other one is severely damaged we might as well end up with NO EAFR data from the critical last part of the flight. Perhaps both units are severely damaged? I’m not convinced your optimism is entirely warranted.

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DaveReidUK
2025-06-20T08:54:00
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Post: 11906737
Originally Posted by xetroV
Do both EAFRs run on emergency power? Could it be possible that only ONE (if any) EAFR unit was recording after the supposed loss of thrust on both engines? If the other one is severely damaged we might as well end up with NO EAFR data from the critical last part of the flight. Perhaps both units are severely damaged? I\x92m not convinced your optimism is entirely warranted.
No, only the forward EAFR is connected to an independent power supply, and of course it will then only collect data from sources that themselves remain powered on.

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Icarus2001
2025-06-20T09:04:00
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Post: 11906745
Back in my commuter days more than one Captain at the layover hotel got a sudden call from ops that left an RJ engine running before they departed the airport
Walking away from a parked aircraft and not noticing that an engine was running? Wow, just wow. You cannot be serious.

If the other one is severely damaged we might as well end up with NO EAFR data from the critical last part of the flight
At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, the EAFR is designed to withstand a crash and there being two helps, the fact that we can see a largely intact tail cone and stab is encouraging. There was some power as the radio was serviceable.

The EAFR will soon tell us WHAT happened but perhaps not WHY just yet.

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Capn Bloggs
2025-06-20T09:10:00
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Post: 11906753
Originally Posted by Iccy
At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, the EAFR is designed to withstand a crash
The bleeding obvious didn't work on the Jeju Air 737.

The 787s recorder/s have obviously been damaged so much/missing data they are being taken to the US.

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Musician
2025-06-20T09:15:00
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Post: 11906759
EAFR documentation

Originally Posted by xetroV
Do both EAFRs run on emergency power? Could it be possible that only ONE (if any) EAFR unit was recording after the supposed loss of thrust on both engines? If the other one is severely damaged we might as well end up with NO EAFR data from the critical last part of the flight. Perhaps both units are severely damaged? I\x92m not convinced your optimism is entirely warranted.
Both EAFR run on standby power, yes. In addition, the forward EAFR has its own battery backup. However, the number of devices that still send valid data to the EAFR during a power outage is diminished, of course.

The black rubber cap protects a multi-pin connector.

The white cylinder is an underwater location transmitter.

The forward EAFR has its own backup power.

Source: https://www.geaerospace.com/sites/de...rder-3254F.pdf

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