OldnGrounded
June 18, 2025, 16:28:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11905332

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPENDOOR

It could equally refer to the APU which some have suggested either started or was in the process of starting.

Yes, but it's clear from context that the WSJ story is referring to the RAT and whatever they may understand from their sources is connected to it.

Quote:

The emergency system is known as a ram air turbine. It is a small propeller that drops from the bottom of the 787 Dreamliner\x92s fuselage to serve as a backup generator.

The story is paywalled, so the link that pops up for me may not work for you, but in case it does:

https://www.wsj.com/business/airline...QPg1BBGQ%3D%3D

Subjects APU Generators/Alternators RAT (All) Wall Street Journal

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geo10
July 12, 2025, 00:22:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11919985

So here's what it is known so far. It really narrows it down.

1. Aircraft took off
2. At a few hundred feet AGL all engine power was visibly lost and aircraft crashed.
3. No airworthiness directive was issued for weeks after the crash.
4. Prelim report states that main fuel cuttof switches were moved to the off position immediately after take off, one after the other with one second difference . (YGBFSM)
5. Switches were moved to on position 10 secs after, one by one, but it was too late unfortunatelly.
6. WSJ reported that "there aren’t any recommendations for Boeing, engine-maker GE Aerospace or operators of the aircraft at this stage of the investigation"
https://www.wsj.com/business/airline...ident-2c0b1c3e (paywall)
6. WSJ also reported that "Indian officials have released little information to the public about the investigation, fueling some frustration among American government and industry officials since the June 12 crash, some people familiar with the matter said. U.S. government and industry officials have also been frustrated by what they perceived as the slow pace of downloading, analyzing and sharing the contents of the plane's black boxes, these people said"
https://www.wsj.com/business/airline...article_inline (paywall)

Subjects Preliminary Report Wall Street Journal

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galaxy flyer
July 17, 2025, 00:15:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11924052

Undoubtedly from someone not authorized to comment, but the WSJ just issued a breaking news piece. As it is behind a paywall, here’s the pertinent excerpt,

Quote:

New details in the probe of last month’s Air India crash are shifting the focus to the senior pilot in the cockpit.

A black-box recording of dialogue between the flight’s two pilots indicates it was the captain who turned off switches that controlled fuel flowing to the plane’s two engines, according to people familiar with U.S. officials’ early assessment of evidence uncovered in the crash investigation.

The first officer who was flying the Boeing 787 Dreamliner asked the more-experienced captain why he moved the switches to the “cutoff” position after it climbed off the runway, these people said. The first officer expressed surprise and then panicked, these people said, while the captain seemed to remain calm.

Subjects Wall Street Journal

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slats11
July 17, 2025, 01:02:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11924063

PC767

Quote:

Before I dip out again I want to remove my horsehair wig, reach past the pilot peaked hat and put on my dusty old custodian helmet - police. I dealt with many suicides from finding bodies, informing and liasing with families/loved ones and writing statements and reports for the Coroners Court. My experience tells me that suicide is only rational to the suicidal sole. Any attempts to discredit the theory based on why they might do it, how they may do it and what might be a better way are irrelevant.

Suicide cases I have dealt with have been difficult because of personal, cultural or financial reasons, be that of the suicidal person or those they left. Pride suprisingly is often important - not wanting to be thought badly of. You may question, theoretically, how one cannot but be thought badly of when taking the lives of several hundred people results from ones action. Thats a rational response, a suicidal person may, theoretically, prefer people to consider that they died heroically. It makes little sense to those of us not contemplating suicide.

I know of a case a former colleague dealt with where a suicidal person drove head on into another vehicle which contained an innocent family. His family understood he had carried out a threat he had made, but there was insufficent evidence for the court. His death, and another was held as accidental.

I dealt with people who, for instance, simply hanged themselves, thus voiding life insurance. The family asked if it could be reported as an accident. It could not. I dealt with the case of a man who threw himself of a bridge, landing on his head, at my feet. His final words to me being "I'm not going to be the devil's dog, you know what happens now." The family had try to supress his psycological issues and refused to accept a verdict of death by suicide from the Coroner's Court, when it clearly was. I dealt with a case of a young man who drove his vehicle at speed into a railway bridge. On the face of it a terrible accident, but with background and witness evidence it was accepted a suicide. I could go on.

There are parallels with the recent surge in "suicide by cop" where mentally ill people confront police who are essentially forced to shoot them. However their families often chose to see this as other than suicide.

MedicAn

Quote:

And there's already been discussion on the difficulty (read "inability to do a quantitative assessment") of objectively assessing the severity of a MH condition, including of suicidal ideation. There are people who have passive suicidal ideation for years and never attempt, for ex.

After every mass shooting, there are calls for mental health screening of people applying for a firearm licence. No jurisdiction has imposed this because it does not work. There is some psychological screening before joining the military - and they have a high rate of suicide (partly due to unusual stressors yes, but the point is that screening does not select those vulnerable)

JustusW

Quote:

I have no idea why you would exclude the only actually confirmed pilot suicide where we have a psychotherapists treatment data as evidence.
New details in the probe of last month\x92s Air India crash are shifting the focus to the senior pilot in the cockpit

I made reference to Germanwings - and noted it was slightly unusual as it was a younger pilot. I also made reference to the difficulty for AVMED in knowing when to report a confidential issue because of an "overriding public interest"

Quote:

A black-box recording of dialogue between the flight\x92s two pilots indicates it was the captain who turned off switches that controlled fuel flowing to the plane\x92s two engines, according to people familiar with U.S. officials\x92 early assessment of evidence uncovered in the crash investigation.

The first officer who was flying the Boeing 787 Dreamliner asked the more-experienced captain why he moved the switches to the \x93cutoff\x94 position after it climbed off the runway, these people said. The first officer expressed surprise and then panicked, these people said, while the captain seemed to remain calm

And so the unpalatable truth starts to leak. Among everything else, spare a thought for his 2 nephews - both pilots. They will carry the guilt for this, as well as significant reputational repercussions.

Anyway, I think I have had (more than) my fair say, and will bow out at this point as things proceed to their inevitable conclusion.

Respect to all.

Subjects Mental Health

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Musician
July 17, 2025, 06:27:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11924133

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3

Somewhat relatedly, on the WSJ article, while its sources are unnamed, I'm trying to recall a single article published in that newspaper (including online) about a major aviation incident which later was shown to have been inaccurate. Maybe there are one or more examples. Generally The Air Current's publisher got a very good start.

I just checked the last one that was linked here: https://www.wsj.com/business/airline...crash-148b7e02 / https://archive.is/pembL

The Air India flight reached an altitude of 625 feet in clear conditions before it stopped transmitting location data, just 50 seconds into the flight, according to Flightradar24.

That's two errors, or at least very misleading statements.

I think everyone agrees that the preliminary report contains sufficient evidence to start a criminal investigation. What this thread is in two minds about is whether the outcome of a criminal investigation is a foregone conclusion.

Subjects FlightRadar24 Preliminary Report Wall Street Journal

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barrymung
July 17, 2025, 09:36:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11924223

Quote:

Originally Posted by Musician

I just checked the last one that was linked here: https://www.wsj.com/business/airline...crash-148b7e02 / https://archive.is/pembL

The Air India flight reached an altitude of 625 feet in clear conditions before it stopped transmitting location data, just 50 seconds into the flight, according to Flightradar24.

It isn't enough necessarily - we don't know if info has been omitted from the initial report - they won't release info at this stage unless they are 100% confident it is correct.

Subjects FlightRadar24 Preliminary Report

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Pilot DAR
November 28, 2025, 11:14:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11997116

Our member WillowRun 6-3 has drawn our attention to the following:

Very significant reporting by WSJ about U.S. - India friction in the investigation.
https://www.wsj.com/business/airline...hare_permalink

Subjects Wall Street Journal

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OldnGrounded June 18, 2025, 16:28:00 GMT permalink Post: 11905332	Quote: Originally Posted by OPENDOOR It could equally refer to the APU which some have suggested either started or was in the process of starting. Yes, but it's clear from context that the WSJ story is referring to the RAT and whatever they may understand from their sources is connected to it. Quote: The emergency system is known as a ram air turbine. It is a small propeller that drops from the bottom of the 787 Dreamliner\x92s fuselage to serve as a backup generator. The story is paywalled, so the link that pops up for me may not work for you, but in case it does: https://www.wsj.com/business/airline...QPg1BBGQ%3D%3D Subjects APU Generators/Alternators RAT (All) Wall Street Journal Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. The thread is closed so there are no user likes are available and no reply is possible.
geo10 July 12, 2025, 00:22:00 GMT permalink Post: 11919985	So here's what it is known so far. It really narrows it down. 1. Aircraft took off 2. At a few hundred feet AGL all engine power was visibly lost and aircraft crashed. 3. No airworthiness directive was issued for weeks after the crash. 4. Prelim report states that main fuel cuttof switches were moved to the off position immediately after take off, one after the other with one second difference . (YGBFSM) 5. Switches were moved to on position 10 secs after, one by one, but it was too late unfortunatelly. 6. WSJ reported that "there aren’t any recommendations for Boeing, engine-maker GE Aerospace or operators of the aircraft at this stage of the investigation" https://www.wsj.com/business/airline...ident-2c0b1c3e (paywall) 6. WSJ also reported that "Indian officials have released little information to the public about the investigation, fueling some frustration among American government and industry officials since the June 12 crash, some people familiar with the matter said. U.S. government and industry officials have also been frustrated by what they perceived as the slow pace of downloading, analyzing and sharing the contents of the plane's black boxes, these people said" https://www.wsj.com/business/airline...article_inline (paywall) Subjects Preliminary Report Wall Street Journal Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
galaxy flyer July 17, 2025, 00:15:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924052	Undoubtedly from someone not authorized to comment, but the WSJ just issued a breaking news piece. As it is behind a paywall, here’s the pertinent excerpt, Quote: New details in the probe of last month’s Air India crash are shifting the focus to the senior pilot in the cockpit. A black-box recording of dialogue between the flight’s two pilots indicates it was the captain who turned off switches that controlled fuel flowing to the plane’s two engines, according to people familiar with U.S. officials’ early assessment of evidence uncovered in the crash investigation. The first officer who was flying the Boeing 787 Dreamliner asked the more-experienced captain why he moved the switches to the “cutoff” position after it climbed off the runway, these people said. The first officer expressed surprise and then panicked, these people said, while the captain seemed to remain calm. Subjects Wall Street Journal Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 5 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
slats11 July 17, 2025, 01:02:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924063	PC767 Quote: Before I dip out again I want to remove my horsehair wig, reach past the pilot peaked hat and put on my dusty old custodian helmet - police. I dealt with many suicides from finding bodies, informing and liasing with families/loved ones and writing statements and reports for the Coroners Court. My experience tells me that suicide is only rational to the suicidal sole. Any attempts to discredit the theory based on why they might do it, how they may do it and what might be a better way are irrelevant. Suicide cases I have dealt with have been difficult because of personal, cultural or financial reasons, be that of the suicidal person or those they left. Pride suprisingly is often important - not wanting to be thought badly of. You may question, theoretically, how one cannot but be thought badly of when taking the lives of several hundred people results from ones action. Thats a rational response, a suicidal person may, theoretically, prefer people to consider that they died heroically. It makes little sense to those of us not contemplating suicide. I know of a case a former colleague dealt with where a suicidal person drove head on into another vehicle which contained an innocent family. His family understood he had carried out a threat he had made, but there was insufficent evidence for the court. His death, and another was held as accidental. I dealt with people who, for instance, simply hanged themselves, thus voiding life insurance. The family asked if it could be reported as an accident. It could not. I dealt with the case of a man who threw himself of a bridge, landing on his head, at my feet. His final words to me being "I'm not going to be the devil's dog, you know what happens now." The family had try to supress his psycological issues and refused to accept a verdict of death by suicide from the Coroner's Court, when it clearly was. I dealt with a case of a young man who drove his vehicle at speed into a railway bridge. On the face of it a terrible accident, but with background and witness evidence it was accepted a suicide. I could go on. There are parallels with the recent surge in "suicide by cop" where mentally ill people confront police who are essentially forced to shoot them. However their families often chose to see this as other than suicide. MedicAn Quote: And there's already been discussion on the difficulty (read "inability to do a quantitative assessment") of objectively assessing the severity of a MH condition, including of suicidal ideation. There are people who have passive suicidal ideation for years and never attempt, for ex. After every mass shooting, there are calls for mental health screening of people applying for a firearm licence. No jurisdiction has imposed this because it does not work. There is some psychological screening before joining the military - and they have a high rate of suicide (partly due to unusual stressors yes, but the point is that screening does not select those vulnerable) JustusW Quote: I have no idea why you would exclude the only actually confirmed pilot suicide where we have a psychotherapists treatment data as evidence. New details in the probe of last month\x92s Air India crash are shifting the focus to the senior pilot in the cockpit I made reference to Germanwings - and noted it was slightly unusual as it was a younger pilot. I also made reference to the difficulty for AVMED in knowing when to report a confidential issue because of an "overriding public interest" Quote: A black-box recording of dialogue between the flight\x92s two pilots indicates it was the captain who turned off switches that controlled fuel flowing to the plane\x92s two engines, according to people familiar with U.S. officials\x92 early assessment of evidence uncovered in the crash investigation. The first officer who was flying the Boeing 787 Dreamliner asked the more-experienced captain why he moved the switches to the \x93cutoff\x94 position after it climbed off the runway, these people said. The first officer expressed surprise and then panicked, these people said, while the captain seemed to remain calm And so the unpalatable truth starts to leak. Among everything else, spare a thought for his 2 nephews - both pilots. They will carry the guilt for this, as well as significant reputational repercussions. Anyway, I think I have had (more than) my fair say, and will bow out at this point as things proceed to their inevitable conclusion. Respect to all. Subjects Mental Health Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 5 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Musician July 17, 2025, 06:27:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924133	Quote: Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3 Somewhat relatedly, on the WSJ article, while its sources are unnamed, I'm trying to recall a single article published in that newspaper (including online) about a major aviation incident which later was shown to have been inaccurate. Maybe there are one or more examples. Generally The Air Current's publisher got a very good start. I just checked the last one that was linked here: https://www.wsj.com/business/airline...crash-148b7e02 / https://archive.is/pembL The Air India flight reached an altitude of 625 feet in clear conditions before it stopped transmitting location data, just 50 seconds into the flight, according to Flightradar24. That's two errors, or at least very misleading statements. I think everyone agrees that the preliminary report contains sufficient evidence to start a criminal investigation. What this thread is in two minds about is whether the outcome of a criminal investigation is a foregone conclusion. Subjects FlightRadar24 Preliminary Report Wall Street Journal Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 3 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
barrymung July 17, 2025, 09:36:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924223	Quote: Originally Posted by Musician I just checked the last one that was linked here: https://www.wsj.com/business/airline...crash-148b7e02 / https://archive.is/pembL The Air India flight reached an altitude of 625 feet in clear conditions before it stopped transmitting location data, just 50 seconds into the flight, according to Flightradar24. That's two errors, or at least very misleading statements. I think everyone agrees that the preliminary report contains sufficient evidence to start a criminal investigation. What this thread is in two minds about is whether the outcome of a criminal investigation is a foregone conclusion. It isn't enough necessarily - we don't know if info has been omitted from the initial report - they won't release info at this stage unless they are 100% confident it is correct. Subjects FlightRadar24 Preliminary Report Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Pilot DAR November 28, 2025, 11:14:00 GMT permalink Post: 11997116	Our member WillowRun 6-3 has drawn our attention to the following: Very significant reporting by WSJ about U.S. - India friction in the investigation. https://www.wsj.com/business/airline...hare_permalink Subjects Wall Street Journal Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

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