Posts about: "Engine Failure (All)" [Posts: 410 Pages: 21]

ACMS
2025-06-12T09:24:00
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Post: 11898930
Originally Posted by logansi
I just saw the crash video, and I'm convinced I can't see take off flaps set
looks like a clean wing\x85\x85\x85too slow and sinking, doesn\x92t appear to be an Engine failure, no rudder applied\x85..
43Inches
2025-06-12T11:05:00
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Post: 11899070
Indian press seems to be running with reports of power loss, double engine failure. Not sure how accurate it is, but the video doesn't sound like a large jet a full power considering you can hear a lot of ambient noise around. At the start of the video the body angle is definitely low, low like they are trying to stay unstalled, but then the nose rises as the ground approaches, as you would expect anyone to react.
JH870
2025-06-12T11:07:00
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Post: 11899077
No speculation as to what caused the crash, but a couple of points. If there was an inadvertent retraction of flaps instead of gear, this could potentially be remedied by reselecting flaps promptly once recognised. Whether the startle factor would allow it is another thing.

If the RAT is indeed out and there was some sort of powerplant issue, ie. double engine failure, I don't think I would be in a hurry to retract the gear either. In fact it may well have been put down again in that scenario.

Regardless, awful footage to watch. RIP.

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procede
2025-06-12T11:12:00
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Post: 11899081
Dual engine failure due to fuel contamination?

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mobov98423
2025-06-12T11:19:00
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Post: 11899087
Originally Posted by procede
Dual engine failure due to fuel contamination?
or birds?
giblets
2025-06-12T12:10:00
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Post: 11899138
At least one press report stating 'engine failure' was mentioned
Air India pilot said 'engine failure' in mayday call before horror crash | World | News | Express.co.uk

Not seen this anywhere else, and bearing in mind the source, I'd take as a huge pinch of salt, though with the RAT potentially deployed, there may be some credence

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Magplug
2025-06-12T12:11:00
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Post: 11899141
Like most Boeings, on the 787 you are prevented from selecting the flaps/slats all the way up in one go by the gate at flap 1. If this was a mis-selection by one of the pilots, they would have been prevented from selecting ALL the high lift devices up in one go by the flap 1 gate. Even if you manage to get the lever to the Flaps Up position then below 225kts you should get Slat-Gap protection which maintains MOST of the lift. I have never tried it personally but that's the operation as advertised by Boeing. Would that provide enough lift to save them...... that is really a matter of debate.

The aircraft may have suffered a power loss of one or both engines possibly by bird strike. I have to say that the B787 is the very easiest aircraft I have ever flown when handling an engine failure above V1. The flight path vector and the flight director in the head up display make finessing an engine failure absolute child's play. Having said that the Boeing 787 performance is calculated right to the limits of legal requirement, so there is no scope for mis-handling. If they failed to select the landing gear up, not due to a flap lever mis-selection, but some another distraction, like an engine failure, then the aircraft would struggle to accelerate to V2 to safely climb away.

The B787 derates are calculated to give an acceptable Vmca in the event of an engine failure. That is to say, if you apply any more power asymmetricly the Vmca criteria of up to 5deg of bank towards the live engine will require more control input resulting in more control drag. Our SOP was - If you need it - Use It! Thankfully I never had to find out.

By way of illustration, on the B747-400, leaving the gear down following an engine failure had the same effect as failing two of the four engines.

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John4321
2025-06-12T12:12:00
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Post: 11899144
Double engine failure could point to a fuel problem (amongst many other potential causes).
TimmyTee
2025-06-12T12:32:00
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Post: 11899161
A few have suggested double engine failure due to contaminated fuel, but we've seen historically that the equal likely (or perhaps more likely) reason for a double engine "failure" is accidental shutdown of the wrong engine.
Someone Somewhere
2025-06-12T12:34:00
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Post: 11899162
Originally Posted by Spunky Monkey
For an aircraft that will likely have TOGA pressed and be at a high power setting (plus the RAT deployed) it sounds awfully quiet.
Perhaps the gear was down because they knew they were going to force land due to lack of thrust.
(Only a 738 driver), but the electric pumps to drive the hydraulics is much slower than the engine driven pumps and so flap selection / re-selection could be not as expected.

RIP to all involved.
787 gear and flaps/slats are both on the centre system, powered by 2x big electric pumps and no EDPs, so retraction should be minimally impacted by engine failure assuming electric power was still available and reconfiguration worked. Note the 787 has two generators per engine so generator failure is also unlikely to contribute, unless both engines failed taking out all four generators (and presumably no APU running).

Originally Posted by The Brigadier
Assuming we're not facing a repeat of the Boeing 737‑800 crash at Muan International Airport when loss of loss of both engines apparently also cut power to Flight Data Recorder (FDR) and Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR)
From that thread, I believe it was discussed that on most/all other large transports, deploying the RAT re-powers the CVR/FDR. The 737 didn't have that happen because no RAT. You may still get a few second gap while the RAT deploys.

The 787 has 2x Enhanced Airborne Flight Recorders (EAFR), which each record both cockpit voice and flight data. I expect they are also fitted with the dedicated batteries that the Jeju was a year or two too early to require. Per the NTSB , the forward recorder has a 10-minute backup battery.

Hopefully flight data is not going to be an issue for this investigation.

Originally Posted by Sriajuda
Also, what is this discussion about the RAT? Unless someone has extremely quickly faked the audio on the video, it is pretty clear that the engines were running. (Both of them, there is some slight interference pattern I (maybe imagine) to hear.
The suggestion is that the buzzsaw/propeller sound is the RAT; it does sound a bit like an interference pattern, but you don't get the engine roar with it.

It's also maybe visible in a few stills (e.g. post 64).

Last edited by Someone Somewhere; 14th Jun 2025 at 06:01 .

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John4321
2025-06-12T12:42:00
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Post: 11899169
A

Originally Posted by TimmyTee
A few have suggested double engine failure due to contaminated fuel, but we've seen historically that the equal likely (or perhaps more likely) reason for a double engine "failure" is accidental shutdown of the wrong engine.
True. We won\x92t know until the CVR and Flight Data recordings have been analysed. I think these will give a clear indication of what happened. The airport has reopened so I assume there\x92s no fuel contamination risk.

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CW247
2025-06-12T12:48:00
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Post: 11899175
Just for the record, there is no system on modern Boeing aircraft to prevent the accidental retraction of flaps when too low or slow when airborne. You wouldn't even get a warning on Boeing aircraft that is related to Flaps, you'd eventually get one related to Low Speed or Stall. The Airbus has a safety feature called "Alpha-Lock" which physically stops the Flaps from moving when the AoA or speed? is deemed too low. But that's not a safety net for all flap settings, just the lowest for takeoff. It will save the day in 95% of situations though Mr Boeing (hint hint)

Takeoff config warnings and checklists may not have helped if the flap setting was not enough given the weight and conditions. A good handling pilot could recover from an incorrect flap setting (providing there's no obstacles to deal with), by gently lowering the nose allowing the airspeed to build up before resuming the climb. However, various human factors such as startle and over reliance on automation (my thrust setting must be good) will not help the situation.

In order of likelihood:

1.) Flaps moved instead of gear
2.) Incorrect Flap settings and inability of crew to recover from that
3.) Double engine failure
4.) Some electrical event that distracted them

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PoacherNowGamekeeper
2025-06-12T13:16:00
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Post: 11899201
Originally Posted by CW247
Just for the record, there is no system on modern Boeing aircraft to prevent the accidental retraction of flaps when too low or slow when airborne. You wouldn't even get a warning on Boeing aircraft that is related to Flaps, you'd eventually get one related to Low Speed or Stall. The Airbus has a safety feature called "Alpha-Lock" which physically stops the Flaps from moving when the AoA or speed? is deemed too low. But that's not a safety net for all flap settings, just the lowest for takeoff. It will save the day in 95% of situations though Mr Boeing (hint hint)

Takeoff config warnings and checklists may not have helped if the flap setting was not enough given the weight and conditions. A good handling pilot could recover from an incorrect flap setting (providing there's no obstacles to deal with), by gently lowering the nose allowing the airspeed to build up before resuming the climb. However, various human factors such as startle and over reliance on automation (my thrust setting must be good) will not help the situation.

In order of likelihood:

1.) Flaps moved instead of gear
2.) Incorrect Flap settings and inability of crew to recover from that
3.) Double engine failure
4.) Some electrical event that distracted them
Item 1) On the 787, is the gear lever on the main panel facing the flight crew, or on the centre console? I'd imagine they'd (flap and gear levers) need to be adjacent to each other for that to happen. All good points though.
A320 Glider
2025-06-12T13:16:00
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Post: 11899202
Just to confirm.
The 787 is an aircraft which likes to, performance wise, use all of the available runway for takeoff. Sometimes you can be sat in the 787 and as you are rolling down the runway, you start wondering if Rotate has been called or not. It loves taking up all of the runway.

Nevertheless, there are some interesting speculations over on X. One guy even claimed the Captain was in the lavatory during the accident...

Many people have noted what appears to be the RAT deployed in the video footage suggesting dual engine failure. Possible wrong engine shutdown? But who diagnoses and actions an engine failure and shutdown below 400ft?
fdr
2025-06-12T13:37:00
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Post: 11899220
Originally Posted by Porto Pete
The noise certainly matches



Hard to say and the noise could be a fake. It's hard to tell what's real these days.
Originally Posted by ViceSergal
[img]image.jpg[/img]


Pixelation is a bit absurd, but that looks a bit like a RAT to me in the lower right.
Originally Posted by CW247
Just for the record, there is no system on modern Boeing aircraft to prevent the accidental retraction of flaps when too low or slow when airborne. You wouldn't even get a warning on Boeing aircraft that is related to Flaps, you'd eventually get one related to Low Speed or Stall. The Airbus has a safety feature called "Alpha-Lock" which physically stops the Flaps from moving when the AoA or speed? is deemed too low. But that's not a safety net for all flap settings, just the lowest for takeoff. It will save the day in 95% of situations though Mr Boeing (hint hint)

Takeoff config warnings and checklists may not have helped if the flap setting was not enough given the weight and conditions. A good handling pilot could recover from an incorrect flap setting (providing there's no obstacles to deal with), by gently lowering the nose allowing the airspeed to build up before resuming the climb. However, various human factors such as startle and over reliance on automation (my thrust setting must be good) will not help the situation.

In order of likelihood:

1.) Flaps moved instead of gear
2.) Incorrect Flap settings and inability of crew to recover from that
3.) Double engine failure
4.) Some electrical event that distracted them


TE Flaps are extended, flap gaps between the wing and the flap element are observable. This is not an aberration of the spoiler position, you can see the nacelles through the gap, and that means the flap can not be in the retracted position.

An error of the TE flap deployed position, say between flaps 5 or 15 is not going to cause a stall event.

The flap has not been retracted instead of the gear.

Double engine failure... India. birds, always a latent threat. No rudder deflection, no aileron deflection, so it's not a SE problem, any engine issue is affecting both engines.

Pitch control and roll is not compromised in the video. The crew put out a mayday, not sounding like an electrical fault or distraction.

any funerals near by?

Incorrect TO thrust setting would not present in the video as recorded. Low thrust results in low acceleration, and extended distance to rotate. after rotate, low thrust results in low climb rate, and can result in the crew over pitching where the aircraft has obstructions that the crew have to avoid. the video appears to show the pitch increasing at a point where the aircraft is already unable to climb, not the other way round. An outside possibility.

For survivors, any from the aircraft will be a miracle, and mainly from the rear of the plane near door 3 area, if any. Plane is still striking tank traps at 70m/sec +, high ANU, it's not a high survivability event. Occupants in the buildings along the flight path will have a high fatality rate as well. This is going to be a high toll event in the aircraft and on the ground. Bad day at VAAH. RIP.

Last edited by fdr; 12th Jun 2025 at 17:24 .

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mobov98423
2025-06-12T13:47:00
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Post: 11899226
Originally Posted by giblets
At least one press report stating 'engine failure' was mentioned
Air India pilot said 'engine failure' in mayday call before horror crash | World | News | Express.co.uk

Not seen this anywhere else, and bearing in mind the source, I'd take as a huge pinch of salt, though with the RAT potentially deployed, there may be some credence
\x94 And ex senior pilot, Captain Saurabh Bhatnagar, said: "It looks, prima facie, like a case of multiple bird hits wherein both the engines have lost power. The take-off was perfect and just, I believe, short of taking the gear up, the aircraft started descending, which can happen only in case the engine loses power or the aircraft stops developing lift. Obviously, the investigation will reveal the exact reason."
A340Yumyum
2025-06-12T13:55:00
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Post: 11899233
Originally Posted by procede
Dual engine failure due to fuel contamination?
Like the dual engine failures that occurred on every aircraft which took off before it, using the same fuel supply?

😩

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The Nutts Mutts
2025-06-12T14:26:00
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Post: 11899266
Originally Posted by L4key
In that video there's a large puff of dust as they become airborne... from that I'd assume they were very close to the end of the runway if not slightly past it. It looks like they barely had enough speed to get airborne, and what little speed they did have didn't take them very far. The big question is why they barely climbed... performance issue, engine failure, birdstrike? No idea.

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CW247
2025-06-12T14:28:00
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Post: 11899268
That airport video shows an abrupt loss of lift with the aircraft pointing upwards the entire time which would explain (you know what). An engine failure would create some kind of yawing or change in pitch.

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10LFYI222
2025-06-12T14:29:00
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Post: 11899269
Originally Posted by CW247
That airport video shows an abrupt loss of lift with the aircraft pointing upwards the entire time which would explain (you know what). An engine failure would create some kind of pitching or yawing movement.
i believe the 787 automatically corrects for this yawing moment