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Arrowhead
2025-06-12T14:43:00 permalink Post: 11899284 |
https://www.flightglobal.com/probe-d...121461.article
No idea what happens to a Dreamliner, but the A320 series can handle flaps instead of gear retraction 1 user liked this post. |
Chesty Morgan
2025-06-12T14:53:00 permalink Post: 11899296 |
It looks like they used up an awful lot of runway so potentially incorrect performance and thrust setting, incorrect flap setting, chuck in a temperature inversion or changing winds too if you like and mistakenly retracting flaps instead of the gear could well be the last orifice of the Emmental. 3 users liked this post. |
ManaAdaSystem
2025-06-12T14:59:00 permalink Post: 11899300 |
A mayday call will normally contain information about the nature of the emergency.
The flaps instead of gear is based on the landing gear being down throughout the whole emergency. It\x92s just weird. I get that it may be overlooked in a stressful situation, but when they had time for a mayday call? So, someone said the 747 will have an early thrust reduction if you retract flaps too early, is this also the case with the 787? |
Maltese Falcon
2025-06-12T15:02:00 permalink Post: 11899305 |
It was mentioned before but needs mentioning again. If, as reported, a MAYDAY was issued, I think we can discount the "incorrect flap setting" and 'inadvertent flap retraction" theories. A MAYDAY call is an appropriate response to mechanical failure/bird strike etc but generally not what pops into the mind when you realise your pilot error is about to result in a crash.
3 users liked this post. |
KSINGH
2025-06-12T15:02:00 permalink Post: 11899306 |
hasn\x92t every jet had a take off configuration warning for about 30 years now? Surely the 787 has something far more advanced than that (electronic checklists) as well as airlines having various SOPs to catch that. Retracting flaps instead of gear is plausible (but as I said above doesn\x92t really align with the apparent mayday call they got out) but taking off with zero flaps would be unthinkable for anything as modern as a Dreamliner surely
|
Chesty Morgan
2025-06-12T15:04:00 permalink Post: 11899310 |
hasn\x92t every jet had a take off configuration warning for about 30 years now? Surely the 787 has something far more advanced than that (electronic checklists) as well as airlines having various SOPs to catch that. Retracting flaps instead of gear is plausible (but as I said above doesn\x92t really align with the apparent mayday call they got out) but taking off with zero flaps would be unthinkable for anything as modern as a Dreamliner surely
12 users liked this post. |
CurlyB
2025-06-12T15:20:00 permalink Post: 11899328 |
https://www.flightglobal.com/probe-d...121461.article
No idea what happens to a Dreamliner, but the A320 series can handle flaps instead of gear retraction 2 users liked this post. |
ahmetdouas
2025-06-12T15:25:00 permalink Post: 11899336 |
The loss of lift would
begin
immediately.
It looks like they used up an awful lot of runway so potentially incorrect performance and thrust setting, incorrect flap setting, chuck in a temperature inversion or changing winds too if you like and mistakenly retracting flaps instead of the gear could well be the last orifice of the Emmental. 3 users liked this post. |
whatdoesthisbuttondo
2025-06-12T15:36:00 permalink Post: 11899358 |
I don't really understand why so many people have latched so hard onto the theory that the flaps were not extended based off nothing but a poor quality video (while also ignoring other clues in that same video, such as what is almost certainly the sound of a ram air turbine - never mind that even in that video you
can
equally conclude that the slats and flaps are extended).
One would think it sensible to at least wait for higher quality images/video to emerge before saying it with confidence, given how incredible the claim and aspersions being cast on the crews' basic competence and professionalism are. It\x92s then taking off heavy weight with 35c and the flaps have been raised and the gear is still down. As nobody realised the flaps had been raised instead of the gear when it happened they automatically think it\x92s some other issue as the aircraft loses lift and the amber band rapidly rises and the aircraft runs out of lift. could be something else like fuel or 2 engine failure but seems possible it\x92s an action slip also. I didn\x92t see the RAT deployed but saw the gear down still and an aircraft fall out of the sky with what sounded like engines running still. 1 user liked this post. |
Damonjames
2025-06-12T15:44:00 permalink Post: 11899374 |
Ive been away from aviation a while now, but the level of information available almost immediately after drew me back in here.
Genuinely looks as though (as propellorhead has stated) it comes out of ground effect without enough lift to climb any further. I suspect high temperature, QNH and heavy load will all have played a factor, and maybe flap setting may have been insufficient on this occasion. Sad situation. |
nachtmusak
2025-06-12T15:54:00 permalink Post: 11899393 |
It looks like an action slip to me as the timing looks right ie \x93positive rate \x93 \x93gear up\x94 (someone raises the flaps instead of the gear) PF is looking through the HUD so just sees someone move their hand rather than the hand moving the correct lever
Also, unless we are all watching very different videos, I don't quite understand how anyone cannot hear the propeller buzzing in the video of the plane passing overhead. It's quite distinct. Though of course in this new age of AI we should take any and all audio/video with a grain of salt - which is exactly why confidence that the flaps are or aren't retracted based on such low-quality footage is a bit silly to me. 1 user liked this post. |
KSINGH
2025-06-12T16:33:00 permalink Post: 11899447 |
This appears to be the slats out at least:
is it possible to set slats only for take off on the 787/boeing? For the Airbus we will get 1(slats)+F (flap) on the ground when selecting flap position 1 |
fdr
2025-06-12T17:07:00 permalink Post: 11899492 |
The video take from the south end of the airport appears to show the RAT deployed. The flight VAAH-EGLL is not a particularly heavy departure, the takeoff distance is not unreasonable for a twin jet, at under 7,000' from brakes release. I have limited developmental time only on the 787 before EIS, and I cannot recall any surprising latent threat in the performance of the aircraft for a premature flap retraction, and that certainly would not result in a RAT deployment. An accidental ATR low level off capture might get exciting for a few seconds, but it would not result in a RAT either. The seat 11A pax survivor is remarkable. 6 users liked this post. |
JG1
2025-06-12T17:19:00 permalink Post: 11899499 |
Looking at the video of the takeoff roll, it seemed normal, normal rotation, normal initial climb. Other incidents with incorrect performance data or incorrect flap setting (especially flapless) resulted in an extended rotation phase, often with a tailstrike which doesn't seem to be the case here. So the flaps were probably set correctly.
This aircraft then climbed okay but then 3 things happened 1. They didn't raise the gear (maybe due distraction) 2. They apparently called a mayday for an engine problem 3. The aircraft started to sink and continued to do so until ground impact The videos and the flight path don't seem to show lateral deviation or rudder application but if they called mayday for an engine problem we've got to go with that. Perhaps the flaps were retracted early but I don't see any pitch change, just sink. As the aircraft is certified to fly on a single engine, it should have done so. That it didn't seems to indicate that the other engine also stopped developing the required thrust. Whether it was shut down unintentionally or damaged due to some environmental factor remains to be seen but my moneys on inadvertent shutdown. |
tinshifter
2025-06-12T18:03:00 permalink Post: 11899551 |
I think it may be a simple case of inaccurate takeoff performance data, or inadvertent retraction of flaps instead of gear (this can happen and does happen).
I'm no expert and open to discussion, but it looks to me like the slats are somewhat extended but the flaps weren't, or at least not from the angles we have seen so far. The autogap system on the B787 will automatically extend the slats if they are already in the middle position (i.e Flaps 1) with KIAS <225. Perhaps, either the inaccurate input for takeoff performance produced figures that allowed a Flaps 1 departure, leading to a longer takeoff roll and then once out of ground effect, insufficient climb gradient and a pilot induced stall. Alternatively, at the point where you would likely ask for gear up, the PM has inadvertently selected Flaps 1 from Flaps 5 leading to the same effect. Pilots experienced startle and shock, declared a Mayday as they knew they were descending when they shouldn't be and didn't have time to appropriately react. Dual engine failure is obviously a possibilty however rare it might be. but it doesn't look like any catastrophic failure from the video. Clearly a sad day for all in aviation and looking forward to the official investigation and results, hopefully something we can all learn from. 6 users liked this post. |
ahmetdouas
2025-06-12T18:05:00 permalink Post: 11899553 |
Looking at the video of the takeoff roll, it seemed normal, normal rotation, normal initial climb. Other incidents with incorrect performance data or incorrect flap setting (especially flapless) resulted in an extended rotation phase, often with a tailstrike which doesn't seem to be the case here. So the flaps were probably set correctly.
This aircraft then climbed okay but then 3 things happened 1. They didn't raise the gear (maybe due distraction) 2. They apparently called a mayday for an engine problem 3. The aircraft started to sink and continued to do so until ground impact The videos and the flight path don't seem to show lateral deviation or rudder application but if they called mayday for an engine problem we've got to go with that. Perhaps the flaps were retracted early but I don't see any pitch change, just sink. As the aircraft is certified to fly on a single engine, it should have done so. That it didn't seems to indicate that the other engine also stopped developing the required thrust. Whether it was shut down unintentionally or damaged due to some environmental factor remains to be seen but my moneys on inadvertent shutdown. The most obvious answer is low power/flaps setting if the engines were weird they would have probably aborted take off. Bird strike/engine issue during take off roll after v1? Super unlikely but never say never |
YRP
2025-06-12T18:42:00 permalink Post: 11899587 |
A mayday call will normally contain information about the nature of the emergency.
The flaps instead of gear is based on the landing gear being down throughout the whole emergency. It\x92s just weird. I get that it may be overlooked in a stressful situation, but when they had time for a mayday call? So, someone said the 747 will have an early thrust reduction if you retract flaps too early, is this also the case with the 787? |
AndrewW
2025-06-12T20:23:00 permalink Post: 11899693 |
The theories concerning inadvertent flap retraction are not consistent with the apparent transcript from the mayday call made or rat deployment. In the first video that circulated, the engines can\x92t really be heard (certainly not producing any significant amount of thrust). If the aircraft was climbing out misconfigured, those engines would be screaming. Instead, all you can hear is the rat.
Similarly - a bird strike, knocking out two engines simultaneously is a noisy/messy event and I would expect to see evidence of this occurring in both videos, and in the area at the point of ingestion. The engines don\x92t just roll back with a bird strike - they surge, smoke, bang and splutter. It would be very apparent. At this time, I think everything is pointing towards both engines simultaneously having their fuel feeds interrupted between V1 and Vr. CVR/FDR will be interesting. 7 users liked this post. |
FL370 Officeboy
2025-06-12T20:42:00 permalink Post: 11899714 |
The theories concerning inadvertent flap retraction are not consistent with the apparent transcript from the mayday call made or rat deployment. In the first video that circulated, the engines can\x92t really be heard (certainly not producing any significant amount of thrust). If the aircraft was climbing out misconfigured, those engines would be screaming. Instead, all you can hear is the rat.
Similarly - a bird strike, knocking out two engines simultaneously is a noisy/messy event and I would expect to see evidence of this occurring in both videos, and in the area at the point of ingestion. The engines don\x92t just roll back with a bird strike - they surge, smoke, bang and splutter. It would be very apparent. At this time, I think everything is pointing towards both engines simultaneously having their fuel feeds interrupted between V1 and Vr. CVR/FDR will be interesting. The fact none of the above happened, coupled with the lack of landing gear coming up, makes me think they didn\x92t have thrust to play with. 2 users liked this post. |
ILS27LEFT
2025-06-12T20:46:00 permalink Post: 11899718 |
The theories concerning inadvertent flap retraction are not consistent with the apparent transcript from the mayday call made or rat deployment. In the first video that circulated, the engines can\x92t really be heard (certainly not producing any significant amount of thrust). If the aircraft was climbing out misconfigured, those engines would be screaming. Instead, all you can hear is the rat.
Similarly - a bird strike, knocking out two engines simultaneously is a noisy/messy event and I would expect to see evidence of this occurring in both videos, and in the area at the point of ingestion. The engines don\x92t just roll back with a bird strike - they surge, smoke, bang and splutter. It would be very apparent. At this time, I think everything is pointing towards both engines simultaneously having their fuel feeds interrupted between V1 and Vr. CVR/FDR will be interesting. 3 users liked this post. |
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