Posts about: "Fuel (All)" [Posts: 345 Pages: 18]

BrogulT
2025-06-14T14:35:00
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Post: 11901533
Originally Posted by MR8
Even though there is no point speculating about the cause of this accident, it is the nature of the beast to have questions. As pilots (most of us at least), we do have an inquiring mindset.
For me, a dual engine flameout seems the only possible explanation, now we only have to wait for its cause.
If you read the MMEL for the 787, like most passenger jets there's a LOT of stuff that can be inop and you can still dispatch. APU, one of two center hydraulic pumps, etc. Not suprising to those if you in the industry but perhaps mildly disturbing to the rest of us. I'm wondering how much other stuff could be not working without being noticed. Specifically I'm wondering about the suction pumping of fuel on the engines. Since the normal mode is to run all of the fuel pumps, the suction pump mode is always overridden by boost pressure from the electrics. Might it be possible for wear, improper maintenence or some other issue to cause this standby suction feature to not actually work? Is it routinely tested and if so, how often? The idea here is that if the engines were not capable of sucking up fuel on their own, the airplane would be operated indefinitely without anyone knowing until one day there is a catastrophic electrical malfunction at an inopportune time. In this case, that might correspond with the cessation of the ADS-B data.

I'm asking this as a question, not claming to have "cracked the case". I'm not an aviation fuel system expert. Can anyone who is or has direct knowledge comment? The reason I thought of it is that I've seen very similar issues with diesel engine systems where the mechanical injection pump can typically suck fuel but is normally fed with pressure. An internal (or external) leak can cause it to not be able to suction fuel properly but as long as the other pumps keep it pressurized it can work forever.

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aeo
2025-06-14T15:35:00
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Post: 11901582
What concerns me a little bit is if indeed AC power is lost, would the suction feed inlets in the wing tanks provide enough fuel flow to maintain TO thrust?

I know the system is designed to achieve this in a situation where all of the AC powered boost pumps are lost. But what about in a real situation...

Could this cause a degradation of thrust? Even the slightest decrease..

And if the Captain(?) mentioned power loss in his Mayday. Was he referring to electrical power loss?
Sailvi767
2025-06-14T15:55:00
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Post: 11901596
Originally Posted by Compton3fox
Given the loads on the generators etc. at TO, I would say it won't take very long for the engine to spool down. Maybe around 5-7 seconds. Any differing opinions?
Thrust loss from a loss of fuel flow is near instantaneous.

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aeo
2025-06-14T16:02:00
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Post: 11901606
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
Thrust loss from a loss of fuel flow is near instantaneous.

Once the fuel LP and HP Shutoff valves are open, they stay there until commanded otherwise so an AC power failure will have no affect. They will remain in the last position at the time of the loss. They will then be on suction feed which, by design, should enable the engines to maintain their selected thrust level. They ‘should’ not suffer any loss of thrust.

Edit note: the engines have their own engine driven fuel pumps which can deliver anywhere up to and above 1,100 psi.

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njc
2025-06-14T16:04:00
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Post: 11901609
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
Thrust loss from a loss of fuel flow is near instantaneous.
I believe the point being made by the person you quoted was that the noise of the engines might have become much quieter before the start of the video with the possible RAT noise (the one where the plane passes almost overhead).
CharlieMike
2025-06-14T16:21:00
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Post: 11901619
Originally Posted by OPENDOOR
During the nearly two years that elapsed between AF 447 disappearing and the recovery of the flight data recorders nobody suggested that the PF might have, unwittingly, flown the aircraft, stalled, into the ocean.
AI 171 may prove to also have a totally unpredicted cause.
This was my thinking too. Extending this thinking, the technical aspect is generally quite predictable, the human element not so.

I\x92m absolutely not speculating this is the case here, but could you not achieve the effect this flight suffered by just switching off the fuel control switches at 100ft on takeoff?

There are now so many assumptions based on the assumed state of flap, RAT etc that it\x92s becoming pointless speculation.
MLHeliwrench
2025-06-14T16:39:00
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Post: 11901637
The complex software.

Can anyone familiar with the 787 built in overspeed protections comment on what could possibly override a pilots TOGA button command or fire walling the throttles?

I am presuming that at some point just prior to the mayday call the pilots would have just commanded \x91full\x92 thrust and received no or a significantly mild response.

I don\x92t think fuel contamination, birds or anything else external to the aircraft affected this crash. There is no evidence of it.

could some combination of already MEL items and one or more faulty inputs to the computers cause the aircraft to \x91protect\x92 itself into the ground? Regardless of throttle position?

I am thinking - ground/air logic, faulty airspeed sense, faulty AoA sense or other.
Someone Somewhere
2025-06-14T17:35:00
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Post: 11901681
Originally Posted by aeo
What concerns me a little bit is if indeed AC power is lost, would the suction feed inlets in the wing tanks provide enough fuel flow to maintain TO thrust?

I know the system is designed to achieve this in a situation where all of the AC powered boost pumps are lost. But what about in a real situation...

Could this cause a degradation of thrust? Even the slightest decrease..
A slight decrease in two engines is still far better than a loss of one engine, and that has to be manageable.

Originally Posted by deltafox44
I did read and search this thread, but I found nothing about ADS-B loss just before the end of the runway and at 71 ft high, according to FR24. ADS-B coverage is poor on the ground on the north-east part of the airfield (hence the fake news about taking off from the intersection) but I don't think it would be lost once airborne, except if it has been shut off... electrical failure ?

more precisely, loss of the two Main AC buses (ADS-B not powered by Standby AC)
787 has four main AC buses. Cannot find information on the standby/emergency buses but I would probably expect two.

There's a list of equipment operable on battery/RAT here, but I'm not sure which (if any) is the transponder (26:10):

Originally Posted by stn
Is that with the B787? Because all buses can fly without APU. Those days at work are ####ty, tho
I think the post you replied to was in the context of mandating APU on for takeoff. Could just say "on if available", though.

Originally Posted by A0283
Have been going through the thread but cannot remember if we discussed and excluded the gear pins? There seems to have been more than enough turnaround time.
I can't see how gear pins would stop you doing anything more than raising the gear. They don't cause engine failure, RAT extension, or uncommanded flap retraction.

If you had gear pins and an engine loss, I could maybe see climb rate being zero or slightly negative. Not the brick impression we see here.

Originally Posted by TehDehZeh
There have been a couple comments regarding the tilt of the bogies not corresponding to the landing configuration which have taken this as an indicator for an attempted (but failed) retraction.
I don't think anybody has so far confirmed which of the two positions the bogie would have without hydraulic pressure, but I would strongly think it is the one used in the retraction/extension cycle and not the landing configuration, for the simple reason that otherwise the gravity drop would potentially not work (I assume it is tilted for the stowing because it would otherwise not fit).
Maybe someone with concrete knowledge can confirm this?

This would then only confirm that the bogies were unpressurized (likely because of loss of hydraulics, but of course could also still be a partial retraction that stopped for some reason)
I did raise this earlier... FCOMs say that the bogies remain in the stowed tilt after a gravity drop, but I don't know if that's because the gear has springs to hold it that way without hydraulics, or just they close the valves on the hydraulics so it stays in the last commanded position without pressure.

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Compton3fox
2025-06-14T17:42:00
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Post: 11901687
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
Thrust loss from a loss of fuel flow is near instantaneous.
OK but the poster was asking about noise from a spooling down engine. I would have thought that would continue for a few seconds.. Thoughts?
Compton3fox
2025-06-14T17:53:00
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Post: 11901693
Originally Posted by Kraftstoffvondesibel
I have seen your previous posts about this, and I happen to agree. Visually, as a lay man non visuals expert, I am in your \xabcamp.\xbb

However, the rat is small, and the artifacts are plentiful. Small sensor, compressed video, compressed upload, zoom, it is in short an awful source.

However, the RAT is a much better noisemaker, and the audio signature is much more obvious than it\x92s visual appearance in this case, and though the recording isn\x92t fantastic quality, there was more than enough information there to objectively conclude the RAT is out. And that is my professional, on the weekend, opinion.

I want to ask a pretty frank question for all of you, and I hope it is ok, from an audio specialist non-pilot:
Provided the engines spooled down. Provided the RAT is out. (There are no explosions, no bird strikes.)
Isn\x92t software and previous electrical failures a red herring too?Would anything but a complete fuel shut off lead to this result? That still leaves everything from the Fate is the Hunter plot, to Airbus A350 center consoles and Alaska 2059 open as root causes.
That leads to the next question.. Is there any system on the 787 that CAN shutdown the engines. We know there is at least one... But the A/C needs to be ground mode. However, if would not be the 1st time a system that should not deploy when the A/C is airborne, does! LaudaAir out from BKK is one example...

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Someone Somewhere
2025-06-14T18:08:00
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Post: 11901702
Originally Posted by HumbleDeer
On the B787/B788, you'd be expected to run it because you need the electrical power to spool up at least one of the engines, after which the one running engine can provide power to start the one yet to be started engine.
787 can be started with no APU using three ground power units.

(the manual implies two in a pinch, but you shed all loads except the engine starters and a fuel pump)
appruser
2025-06-14T18:43:00
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Post: 11901720
Originally Posted by Alty7x7
There should not be a max pre-start EGT limit in-flight - that should only occur on the ground for a pilot-initiated Autostart where the starting EGT redlines are lower than for in-flight.

In-flight, the Autorelight function should attempt to restart the engine as soon as a flameout is detected, and for an engine flaming out at high power it might catch it before it even goes sub-idle. Generally, Autorelight will continue attempting until some cutoff N2 at which time it will stop attempting, or if the pilot move the fuel switch to Cutoff. And while the EEC is still powered (via its own PMA) down to roughly 10% N2, the ignition exciters required for Autorelight do get their power from the airplane.
Thank you for the correction.

Could this mean that because there doesn't seem to have been any recovery once descent started, there was no fuel flow to support autorelight? Or that there was fuel flow and autorelight may have succeeded but there wasn't enough thrust generated before impact? From the video total descent time was only 17-20s. I guess what I'm asking is what would be the total cycle time if the first autorelight succeeded: flameout -> autorelight -> useful thrust? And if the PM executed dual-engine fail memory item fuel cutoff to run, how would that change the sequence?
Shep69
2025-06-14T19:26:00
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Post: 11901751
Originally Posted by go-around flap 15
We're all shouting each other down with two main different theories on why the aircraft lost lift so shortly after takeoff.

1) Incorrect flap retraction causing the aircraft to lose lift and unable to recover the energy in time. (Not unheard of and plenty of reports where this has happened - albeit usually not to a crash).

2) Loss of engine thrust backed up two potential pieces of evidence that back up the RAT was deployed (apparent RAT sound, potential RAT seen on low res video).

It is impossible to know which of these is the case. Considering this summary of memory items is there the potential for a combination of both theories to have taken place?

Inadvertant flap retraction by PNF leading the PF to sense a sink and loss of lift. Pushes the thrust levers forward to the firewall and still the aircraft sinks. PF looking through the HUD and so very much 'outside focused' and doesn't realise that PNF has instead moved the flaps. PF defaults to memory items for loss of thrust on both engines before PNF can realise or communicate to PF what they've done, start switches are cut off which drops the RAT and from that point they're only heading one way. This would satisfy the strongly held belief that the RAT was extended, whilst also following the more likely initial cause of an action slip by PNF starting the sequence, rather than a dual engine failure.
This to me makes more sense; perhaps I`ve got it wrong but in the video the trailing edge flaps definitely look up. Maybe there`s more and they weren`t.

On a flap 5 takeoff the FMS could be programmed to select climb power at flaps 1 which would seem like an apparent loss of thrust. Same as for F15 to F5 or further.

I`m not sure if they would have cycled the FCS switches or not. But the airplane certainly would have experienced a loss of lift would the flaps been inadvertently retracted. As well as perceived loss of thrust.

OTOH any castastophic failure which left the gear down would have essentially left the flaps where they were. They are hydraulically activated with electrical backup but it`s wayyyyy slow.
tdracer
2025-06-14T20:48:00
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Post: 11901821
Another hour spent sifting through the stuff since last night (my sympathies to the mods ). A few more comments:

"Real time engine monitoring" is typically not 'real time' - it's recorded and sent in periodic bursts. Very unlikely anything was sent from the event aircraft on this flight.

Commanded engine cutoff - the aisle stand fuel switch sends electrical signals to the spar valve and the "High Pressure Shutoff Valve" (HPSOV) in the Fuel Metering Unit, commanding them to open/close using aircraft power. The HPSOV is solenoid controlled, and near instantaneous. The solenoid is of a 'locking' type that needs to be powered both ways (for obvious reasons, you wouldn't want a loss of electrical power to shut down the engine). The fire handle does the same thing, via different electrical paths (i.e. separate wiring).

As I've noted previously, a complete loss of aircraft electrical power would not cause the engines to flameout (or even lose meaningful thrust) during takeoff. In the takeoff altitude envelope, 'suction feed' (I think Airbus calls it 'gravity feed') is more than sufficient to supply the engine driven fuel pumps. It's only when you get up to ~20k ft. that suction feed can become an issue - and this event happened near sea level.

Not matter what's happening on the aircraft side - pushing the thrust levers to the forward stop will give you (at least) rated takeoff power since the only thing required from the aircraft is fuel and thrust lever position (and the thrust lever position resolver is powered by the FADEC).

The TCMA logic is designed and scrubbed so as to be quite robust - flight test data of the engine response to throttle slams is reviewed to insure there is adequate margin between the TCMA limits and the actual engine responses to prevent improper TCMA activation. Again, never say never, but a whole lot would have had to go wrong in the TCMA logic for it to have activated on this flight.

Now, if I assume the speculation that the RAT deployed is correct, I keep coming up with two potential scenarios that could explain what's known regarding this accident:
1) TCMA activation shutdown the engines
or
2) The fuel cutoff switches were activated.
I literally can come up with no other plausible scenarios.

In all due respect to all the pilots on this forum, I really hope it wasn't TCMA. It wouldn't be the first time a mandated 'safety system' has caused an accident (it wouldn't just be Boeing and GE - TCMA was forced by the FAA and EASA to prevent a scenario that had never caused a fatal accident) - and there would be a lot embarrassing questions for all involved. But I personally know many of the people who created, validated, and certified the GEnx-1B TCMA logic - and can't imagine what they would be going through if they missed something (coincidentally, one of them was at my birthday party last weekend and inevitably we ended up talking about what we used to do at Boeing (he's also retired)). Worse, similar TCMA logic is on the GEnx-2B (747-8) - which I was personally responsible for certifying - as well as the GE90-115B and the 737 MAX Leap engine - the consequences of that logic causing this accident would be massive.

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EDLB
2025-06-14T21:11:00
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Post: 11901834
Long story short. Something or someone disrupted the fuel supply on both engines simultaneously around rotation time. In a way that a line check captain could not correct it in 10+ seconds remaining flight time. Occam razor at this stage would say, that both fire handles were activated. Hope that the investigation comes up with something different.

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DaveReidUK
2025-06-14T21:27:00
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Post: 11901855
Originally Posted by tdracer
Another hour spent sifting through the stuff since last night (my sympathies to the mods ). A few more comments:

"Real time engine monitoring" is typically not 'real time' - it's recorded and sent in periodic bursts. Very unlikely anything was sent from the event aircraft on this flight.

Commanded engine cutoff - the aisle stand fuel switch sends electrical signals to the spar valve and the "High Pressure Shutoff Valve" (HPSOV) in the Fuel Metering Unit, commanding them to open/close using aircraft power. The HPSOV is solenoid controlled, and near instantaneous. The solenoid is of a 'locking' type that needs to be powered both ways (for obvious reasons, you wouldn't want a loss of electrical power to shut down the engine). The fire handle does the same thing, via different electrical paths (i.e. separate wiring).

As I've noted previously, a complete loss of aircraft electrical power would not cause the engines to flameout (or even lose meaningful thrust) during takeoff. In the takeoff altitude envelope, 'suction feed' (I think Airbus calls it 'gravity feed') is more than sufficient to supply the engine driven fuel pumps. It's only when you get up to ~20k ft. that suction feed can become an issue - and this event happened near sea level.

Not matter what's happening on the aircraft side - pushing the thrust levers to the forward stop will give you (at least) rated takeoff power since the only thing required from the aircraft is fuel and thrust lever position (and the thrust lever position resolver is powered by the FADEC).

The TCMA logic is designed and scrubbed so as to be quite robust - flight test data of the engine response to throttle slams is reviewed to insure there is adequate margin between the TCMA limits and the actual engine responses to prevent improper TCMA activation. Again, never say never, but a whole lot would have had to go wrong in the TCMA logic for it to have activated on this flight.

Now, if I assume the speculation that the RAT deployed is correct, I keep coming up with two potential scenarios that could explain what's known regarding this accident:
1) TCMA activation shutdown the engines
or
2) The fuel cutoff switches were activated.
I literally can come up with no other plausible scenarios.

In all due respect to all the pilots on this forum, I really hope it wasn't TCMA. It wouldn't be the first time a mandated 'safety system' has caused an accident (it wouldn't just be Boeing and GE - TCMA was forced by the FAA and EASA to prevent a scenario that had never caused a fatal accident) - and there would be a lot embarrassing questions for all involved. But I personally know many of the people who created, validated, and certified the GEnx-1B TCMA logic - and can't imagine what they would be going through if they missed something (coincidentally, one of them was at my birthday party last weekend and inevitably we ended up talking about what we used to do at Boeing (he's also retired)). Worse, similar TCMA logic is on the GEnx-2B (747-8) - which I was personally responsible for certifying - as well as the GE90-115B and the 737 MAX Leap engine - the consequences of that logic causing this accident would be massive.
A TCMA bug just doesn't bear thinking about, I really hope that doesn't turn out to be the case.

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ILS27LEFT
2025-06-14T22:05:00
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Post: 11901881
Indeed

Originally Posted by MaybeItIs
Thanks for answering the question I hadn't yet asked but wanted to confirm!

I'm still sticking with "Major Electrical Fault" as my most likely cause, and this adds to my suspicions.

As I understand it, the landing gear is raised / retracted by electric motor-driven hydraulic pump (pumps?). This/these would create a significant electrical load.

If the plane's multi-redundant electrical system has a fault which is intermittent (the worst kind of electrical issue to diagnose), and which causes the redundancy controls to go haywire (as there are, of course, electronic controls to detect failures and drive the switching over of primary and backup electrical supplies), then this fault could to triggered by a large load coming on-line. It could even be as simple as a high current cable lug not having been tightened when a part was being replaced at some stage. The relevant bolt might be only finger-tight. Enough to work 99.99% of the time between then and now... But a little bit more oxidation, and particularly, a bit more heat (it was a hot day), and suddenly, a fault.

Having worked in electronics for years, I know that semi-conductors (and lots of other components, especially capacitors [and batteries]) can also degrade instead of failing completely. Electro-static discharges are great for causing computer chips to die, or go meta-stable - meaning they can get all knotted up and cease working correctly - until they are powered off for a while. They can also degrade in a way that means they work normally a low temperatures, but don't above a certain temperature.

Anyway, there MUST be ways that the redundant power supplies can be brought down, simply because, to have a critical bus powered from a number of independent sources, there must be "controls" of some sort. I don't know how it's done in the 787, but that's where I'd be looking.

As there is a lot of discussion already about how the bogies are hanging the wrong way suggesting a started but failed retraction operation, and it's now confirmed that the retraction would normally have taken place at about the point where the flight went "pear shaped", I'm going to suggest that the two things are connected. More than that: I'll suggest that the Gear Up command triggered the fault that caused both engines to shut down in very short succession. Nothing the pilots did wrong, and no way they could have known and prevented it.

It's going to be difficult to prove though.
Best post until now in my view. We will find out very soon I think. Gear up command triggered the instant lack of fuel to both engines. I'm not sure on how the fuel flow is dependant on the power supplies on the 787 but I genuinely believe you are very very close to what might have happened here.

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BrogulT
2025-06-14T22:17:00
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Post: 11901893
Originally Posted by tdracer
Now, if I assume the speculation that the RAT deployed is correct, I keep coming up with two potential scenarios that could explain what's known regarding this accident:
1) TCMA activation shutdown the engines
or
2) The fuel cutoff switches were activated.
I literally can come up with no other plausible scenarios
Thank you for your qualified input! I had asked a question about the ability of the engines to suction fuel if the fuel pumps were inop. Specifically, I wanted to know whether that is ever tested and if so how often and by who. IOW, if due to wear, a maintenance mistake or whatever, if the engines were in fact NOT able to suction fuel, since the SOP is to run all of the pumps would that problem ever be noticed in normal operations? If not, then if both engines had that problem (imagine a faulty maintenance procedure that somehow caused this to happen to a lot of engines) then a sudden, complete collapse of the electrical system would cause the pumps to stop--and thus the engines. If any of that is even a possiblity then all of the other AI 787s should be checked.
njc
2025-06-14T22:19:00
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Post: 11901899
Originally Posted by MaybeItIs
I'm still sticking with "Major Electrical Fault" as my most likely cause, and this adds to my suspicions.
[snip]
Anyway, there MUST be ways that the redundant power supplies can be brought down, simply because, to have a critical bus powered from a number of independent sources, there must be "controls" of some sort. I don't know how it's done in the 787, but that's where I'd be looking.

As there is a lot of discussion already about how the bogies are hanging the wrong way suggesting a started but failed retraction operation, and it's now confirmed that the retraction would normally have taken place at about the point where the flight went "pear shaped", I'm going to suggest that the two things are connected. More than that: I'll suggest that the Gear Up command triggered the fault that caused both engines to shut down in very short succession. Nothing the pilots did wrong, and no way they could have known and prevented it.
OK, but even if we do assume that there was a major electrical fault which brought down the main supplies: multiple posts in this thread have already asserted that this would not cause the shutdown of the engines, and that even if the fuel pumps failed, suction would keep the engines running.

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FullWings
2025-06-14T22:21:00
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Post: 11901900
I think it needs to be said again that pretty much anything can happen to the aircraft systems and the engines will carry on running - this is by design as they have independent FADEC and power supplies and at sea level fuel will get through without boost pumps. You could almost saw the wing off the fuselage and the engine would still produce thrust, TCMA notwithstanding.

We don\x92t know yet what actually triggered the RAT from the relatively short list but every item on it means there is a serious/critical failure(s). The flight path suggests that it was a double engine failure or shutdown (commanded or uncommanded) as anything else should have left the aeroplane in a poor state but able to climb away.

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