Posts about: "Fuel Cutoff" [Posts: 181 Pages: 10]

BrogulT
2025-06-12T21:22:00
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Post: 11899748
Originally Posted by WhatsaLizad?
PPrune Mods.
Please create 2 threads, one for those that have some relevant aviation knowledge to this event and another for the endless SLF questions.
I don't see a problem with questions and people of any level of qualification can provide factual information. Questions can be answered and misstatements can be corrected. That said, better quality input is always welcome, but at this stage we're not likely to get much professional or official input. I hope the Indian authorities are transparent here and I think it is likely we'll have plenty of data.

IMO the problem is the relentless comments by people that apparently think they will win something by cracking the case or "calling it first" or those that can look at some AI rendering of a blurry picture and conclude they know the flap settings. Or concluding that a likely cause for this crash was that both engine master switches were turned off.
Of course dual fuel cutoff is a remote but possible answer, but not one worth speculating about at this point let alone concluding that's what happened.

Last edited by BrogulT; 12th Jun 2025 at 22:47 .

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tdracer
2025-06-12T22:02:00
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Post: 11899778
OK, I promised some informed speculation when I got back, so here goes:
Disclaimer: never worked the 787, so my detailed knowledge is a bit lacking.

First off, this is perplexing - especially if the RAT was deployed. There is no 'simple' explanation that I can come up with.

GEnx-1B engines have been exceptionally reliable, and the GE carbon composite fan blades are very robust and resistant to bird strike damage (about 15 years after the GE90 entry into service, I remember a GE boast that no GE90 (carbon composite) fan blades had needed to be scrapped due to damage (birdstrike, FOD, etc. - now that was roughly another 15 years ago, so is probably no longer true, but it shows just how robust the carbon composite blades are - far better than the more conventional titanium fan blades).

Not saying it wasn't somehow birdstrike related, just that is very unlikely (then again, all the other explanations I can come up with are also very unlikely ).

Using improper temp when calculating TO performance - after some near misses, Boeing added logic that cross-compares multiple total temp probes - aircraft TAT (I think the 787 uses a single, dual element probe for aircraft TAT, but stand to be corrected) and the temp measured by the engine inlet probes - and puts up a message if they disagree by more than a few degree tolerance - so very, very unlikely.

N1 power setting is somewhat less prone to measurement and power setting errors than EPR (N1 is a much simpler measurement than Rolls EPR) - although even with EPR, problems on both engines at the same time is almost unheard of.

The Auto Thrust (autothrottle) function 'falls asleep' at 60 knots - and doesn't unlock until one of several things happens - 250 knots, a set altitude AGL is exceeded (I'm thinking 3,000 ft. but the memory is fuzzy), thrust levers are moved more than a couple of degrees, or the mode select is changed (memory says that last one is inhibited below 400 ft. AGL). So an Auto Thrust malfunction is also extremely unlikely. Further, a premature thrust lever retard would not explain a RAT deployment.

TO does seem to be very late in the takeoff role - even with a big derate, you still must accelerate fast enough to reach V1 with enough runway to stop - so there is still considerable margin if both engines are operating normally. That makes me wonder if they had the correct TO power setting - but I'm at a loss to explain how they could have fouled that up with all the protections that the 787 puts on that.

If one engine did fail after V1, it's conceivable that they shut down the wrong engine - but since this happened literally seconds after takeoff, it begs the question why they would be in a big hurry to shut down the engine. Short of an engine fire, there is nothing about an engine failure that requires quick action to shut it down - no evidence of an engine fire, and even with an engine fire, you normally have minutes to take action - not seconds.

The one thing I keep thinking about is someone placing both fuel switches to cutoff immediately after TO. Yes, it's happened before (twice - 767s in the early 1980s), but the root causes of that mistake are understood and have been corrected. Hard to explain how it could happen (unless, God forbid, it was intentional).

Last edited by T28B; 12th Jun 2025 at 22:21 . Reason: white space is your friend, and is reader-friendly

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violator
2025-06-12T22:34:00
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Post: 11899800
Originally Posted by B2N2
No\x85
Certain jet fuel types may not be authorized for use by the manufacturer but the engines would still run.
Jet engines can run on (almost) anything.
its not like Jet A into a piston engine.
https://assets.publishing.service.go...211_G-POWN.pdf

One example of fuel contamination causing a significant loss of thrust on both engines at low altitude.

But it seems extremely unlikely for contaminated fuel to impact both engines at exactly the same time, with no asymmetry and no surges or smoke.

What can cause a sudden catastrophic loss of thrust on both engines at exactly the same time?

Birds (but no apparent surges)

Inadvertent movement of the fuel cut off switches (which would be an incredible error but I suppose it could conceivably be muscle memory having done so recently after the last leg\x85weirder things have happened. Remember the 767 events of the late 80s)

Intentional shutdown of the engines (pilot suicide has happened before)

Some catastrophic electrical/FADEC/engine interface failure (which I highly doubt is feasible in a modern 1309 aircraft)

I can\x92t think of any others\x85

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notfred
2025-06-13T00:12:00
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Post: 11899855
From the airport CCTV video it looks to me like a normal takeoff and start of climb, until suddenly there's a loss of climb performance with no obvious upset at that point. From the picture of the wing post crash it looks like the flaps were still deployed (N.B. based on pre-accident photos that's the right wing so closest to the camera is aileron and flaps are further away, damage had me confused first time), so I'm going with loss of thrust rather than flap retraction.

From the videos from bystanders it looks like RAT deployment (both sound and zoomed in pictures) rather than thrust lever retard, and that would also explain failure to retract gear - if you are dealing with both engines out at that altitude then gear isn't your first thought. From the airport CCTV video I don't see anything that looks like bird strikes at that point in the climb i.e. no obvious flocks of birds, no smoke out of the engines, no slewing one way as one engine fails and then the other is cut by accident - plus you wouldn't cut the engine at that point, you'd climb on one engine and then sort it out.

Even fuel contamination or water build up in both tanks is likely to result in one engine failing a few seconds before the other. So I can't come up with anything other than both fuel cutoff switches that would result in loss of thrust and RAT deployment. Looking at a picture of the cutoff switches https://www.nycaviation.com/2013/08/...is-fired/30179 I don't see how they get hit by accident.

I'm confused, hope we get an FDR / CVR readout soon.

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Doors to Automatic
2025-06-13T01:31:00
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Post: 11899908
Having read all the posts, watched the videos and with a 30 year background interest in air safety, I have a nagging feeling that the engine fuel cut off switches were pulled just after take-off. I am not saying this with the intention of idle speculation, it is just that to me nothing else seems to make sense. To anyone disagreeing with this, I really hope you are right and I am wrong.

16 users liked this post.

Sailvi767
2025-06-13T01:49:00
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Post: 11899917
Originally Posted by Doors to Automatic
Having read all the posts, watched the videos and with a 30 year background interest in air safety, I have a nagging feeling that the engine fuel cut off switches were pulled just after take-off. I am not saying this with the intention of idle speculation, it is just that to me nothing else seems to make sense. To anyone disagreeing with this, I really hope you are right and I am wrong.
Delta airlines had a Captain do this in 1986 on a 757 out of LAX. Came within a few hundred feet of ditching. Then flew all the way to CVG with the rat hanging out!
tdracer
2025-06-13T02:18:00
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Post: 11899930
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
Delta airlines had a Captain do this in 1986 on a 757 out of LAX. Came within a few hundred feet of ditching. Then flew all the way to CVG with the rat hanging out!
Not 757 - it was a 767. Second time it happened in about 12 months.

Determined to be an ergonomics problem with the switch layout in the flightdeck.

Early 767s (JT9D and CF6-80A) had a supervisory "EEC" (Electronic Engine Control - Boeing still uses "EEC" to identify what most people call the FADEC on modern engines). The procedure if an EEC 'failed' was to switch both EECs off (to prevent excessive throttle stagger - unlike FADEC, the engine could operate just fine with a supervisory EEC failed).

Problem was that the EEC ON/OFF switch was located on the aisle stand - right above the fuel cutoff switches. Turned out 'muscle memory' was when the pilot reached down there, it was usually to turn the fuel ON or OFF - which is what they did. Fortunately realizing what he'd done wrong, the pilot quickly restored the switches to RUN and both engines recovered. And yes, they continued on to their destination (RAT was still deployed since there is no way to retract it in-flight).

Previous event was with JT9D engines (United IIRC). In that case, only one engine recovered (second engine went into an unrecoverable stall), they simply came back around and did a single engine landing.

Realizing the ergonomic issue, the EECs were relocated to the pilot's overhead (retrofit by AD).

To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been a repeat of an inadvertent dual engine shutdown since the EEC switches were relocated. It's also very difficult to 'accidentally' move the switches as there is a locking detent - the switch must be pulled out slightly before it can be moved to CUTOFF.

Last edited by T28B; 13th Jun 2025 at 02:22 . Reason: again, broke up the text to be reader friendly, great input!

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Alty7x7
2025-06-13T03:02:00
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Post: 11899948
Originally Posted by tdracer
OK, I promised some informed speculation when I got back, so here goes:
Disclaimer: never worked the 787, so my detailed knowledge is a bit lacking.

First off, this is perplexing - especially if the RAT was deployed. There is no 'simple' explanation that I can come up with.

GEnx-1B engines have been exceptionally reliable, and the GE carbon composite fan blades are very robust and resistant to bird strike damage (about 15 years after the GE90 entry into service, I remember a GE boast that no GE90 (carbon composite) fan blades had needed to be scrapped due to damage (birdstrike, FOD, etc. - now that was roughly another 15 years ago, so is probably no longer true, but it shows just how robust the carbon composite blades are - far better than the more conventional titanium fan blades).

Not saying it wasn't somehow birdstrike related, just that is very unlikely (then again, all the other explanations I can come up with are also very unlikely ).

Using improper temp when calculating TO performance - after some near misses, Boeing added logic that cross-compares multiple total temp probes - aircraft TAT (I think the 787 uses a single, dual element probe for aircraft TAT, but stand to be corrected) and the temp measured by the engine inlet probes - and puts up a message if they disagree by more than a few degree tolerance - so very, very unlikely.

N1 power setting is somewhat less prone to measurement and power setting errors than EPR (N1 is a much simpler measurement than Rolls EPR) - although even with EPR, problems on both engines at the same time is almost unheard of.

The Auto Thrust (autothrottle) function 'falls asleep' at 60 knots - and doesn't unlock until one of several things happens - 250 knots, a set altitude AGL is exceeded (I'm thinking 3,000 ft. but the memory is fuzzy), thrust levers are moved more than a couple of degrees, or the mode select is changed (memory says that last one is inhibited below 400 ft. AGL). So an Auto Thrust malfunction is also extremely unlikely. Further, a premature thrust lever retard would not explain a RAT deployment.

TO does seem to be very late in the takeoff role - even with a big derate, you still must accelerate fast enough to reach V1 with enough runway to stop - so there is still considerable margin if both engines are operating normally. That makes me wonder if they had the correct TO power setting - but I'm at a loss to explain how they could have fouled that up with all the protections that the 787 puts on that.

If one engine did fail after V1, it's conceivable that they shut down the wrong engine - but since this happened literally seconds after takeoff, it begs the question why they would be in a big hurry to shut down the engine. Short of an engine fire, there is nothing about an engine failure that requires quick action to shut it down - no evidence of an engine fire, and even with an engine fire, you normally have minutes to take action - not seconds.

The one thing I keep thinking about is someone placing both fuel switches to cutoff immediately after TO. Yes, it's happened before (twice - 767s in the early 1980s), but the root causes of that mistake are understood and have been corrected. Hard to explain how it could happen (unless, God forbid, it was intentional).
787 airframe TAT probe is non-aspirated. OAT from temp sensors in the Cabin Air Compressor (CAC, electric-powered compressors/packs) inlets, blending in engine inlet T2s. I seem to recall transition to ADS TAT at some point in climbout - typical 400 ft AGL.

Very hot day, so far past breakpoint, N1 Max sensitive to TAT. Any TAT or DT latching (can't recall if) would be cleared - if at 400 ft AGL, which may not have been attained here.
FullWings
2025-06-13T06:43:00
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Post: 11900068
If it is true that the RAT deployed during the flight, possibly from early on in the 30s of airborne time, and multiple independent pieces of evidence suggest that this is the case, then that narrows down things considerably. Double engine failure, massive electrical issues or fuel control switches / fire switches on both engines are all I can think of that could cause this. Gear/flaps etc. are a red herring. During the period after the power loss and before the RAT came online (up to 8s AFAIK ), almost everything would have been load shed as battery power only.

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FullWings
2025-06-13T07:36:00
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Post: 11900111
Originally Posted by m0nkfish
People on here seem convinced the RAT was deployed because they\x92ve seen it/heard it so many times before. They may be right. But if they are, then it means the RAT has deployed countless times before without both engines having failed, so it doesn\x92t definitively tell us anything.
As has already been pointed out, these deployments were deliberate for test purposes and the approaches were done into airfields used by manufacturers for trials. Unless the Air India crew thought it would be fun to see what happened if they deployed the RAT shortly after takeoff, we are looking at something triggered by one or more of:

System-wide electrical issues
Double engine failure
Selection of fuel switch and/or fire switch on both engines

Any speculation about gear, flap, runway, etc. is redundant if the RAT did auto-deploy as it points to a very serious technical issue with the airframe rather than what was done with thrust levers or what the pilots had for breakfast.

I haven\x92t seen what the 787 cockpit looks like on battery power only but on the 777 it gets pretty dark with only the essential P1 instruments and VHF1 available until the RAT comes online, which is a measurable amount of time after deployment is triggered.

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Arrowhead
2025-06-13T09:03:00
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Post: 11900213
Originally Posted by violator
https://assets.publishing.service.go...211_G-POWN.pdf

One example of fuel contamination causing a significant loss of thrust on both engines at low altitude.

But it seems extremely unlikely for contaminated fuel to impact both engines at exactly the same time, with no asymmetry and no surges or smoke.

What can cause a sudden catastrophic loss of thrust on both engines at exactly the same time?

Birds (but no apparent surges)

Inadvertent movement of the fuel cut off switches (which would be an incredible error but I suppose it could conceivably be muscle memory having done so recently after the last leg…weirder things have happened. Remember the 767 events of the late 80s)

Intentional shutdown of the engines (pilot suicide has happened before)

Some catastrophic electrical/FADEC/engine interface failure (which I highly doubt is feasible in a modern 1309 aircraft)

I can’t think of any others…
This seems to be the best summary so far. Based on the detail of the mayday its probably time to rule out the flaps, load shift, and other suggestions. Latest news is a quote from the survivor: " Suddenly, the lights started flickering – green and white – then the plane rammed into some establishment that was there" .

I cant think of any reason for electrical failure and "no thrust" (as per statements) without any visual cues other than (a) suicide, or (b) starvation. Is there any electrical failure that can cause fuel valves to close? I dont fly Boeing, so can any Dreamliner driver explain what conditions could trigger an overspeed and auto engine shutdown (quote from Google below)? Would short runway, and hot/low QNH do it? Also, what happened to the order demanding a full power down/recycle every 51 days?

The EEC has build in protections to protect the engine. One of these protections is the Engine Overspeed Protection, when the core engine exceeds 120% the EEC shuts off the fuel to the applicable engine.

Last edited by Arrowhead; 13th Jun 2025 at 09:46 .
tumtiddle
2025-06-13T10:10:00
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Post: 11900286
One has to assume that, given the seeming lack of lateral deviation from the flight path, and with no obvious yawing or rudder input visible on the videos, there's only two realistic conclusions here? Simultaneous dual engine failure of unknown cause if the RAT was indeed deployed; or flaps reduced too early leading to a stall if the RAT wasn't deployed.

Evidence in this thread would lean me toward the RAT deployed and therefore dual engine out scenario. As for the cause of that, well, only a couple of likely scenarios exist that could cause simultaneous shutdown of both engines, including mistaken or intentional use of the fuel cutoff levers.

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C2H5OH
2025-06-13T11:32:00
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Post: 11900388
Originally Posted by tumtiddle
One has to assume that, given the seeming lack of lateral deviation from the flight path, and with no obvious yawing or rudder input visible on the videos, there's only two realistic conclusions here? Simultaneous dual engine failure of unknown cause if the RAT was indeed deployed; or flaps reduced too early leading to a stall if the RAT wasn't deployed.

Evidence in this thread would lean me toward the RAT deployed and therefore dual engine out scenario. As for the cause of that, well, only a couple of likely scenarios exist that could cause simultaneous shutdown of both engines, including mistaken or intentional use of the fuel cutoff levers.
I would rule out bird strike for lack of audio visual signatures of such an event and fuel contamination due to symmetry of events. Due to my trust in the profession and my distrust in modern engineering practices, my money is on Seattle.
pampel
2025-06-13T11:35:00
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Post: 11900390
Originally Posted by tumtiddle
Evidence in this thread would lean me toward the RAT deployed and therefore dual engine out scenario. As for the cause of that, well, only a couple of likely scenarios exist that could cause simultaneous shutdown of both engines, including mistaken or intentional use of the fuel cutoff levers.
If the fuel was cut off, how long would it take until the engines spooled down? How long would it take, given wind-milling etc, for that to result in a loss of power? I'd love to see a timeline of the flight with the fuel being cut off that is remotely compatible with the events we saw, because I don't think it's possible.
Sailvi767
2025-06-13T12:34:00
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Post: 11900458
Originally Posted by pampel
If the fuel was cut off, how long would it take until the engines spooled down? How long would it take, given wind-milling etc, for that to result in a loss of power? I'd love to see a timeline of the flight with the fuel being cut off that is remotely compatible with the events we saw, because I don't think it's possible.
I can tell you that when a jet engine has a catastrophic failure the loss of thrust is near instantaneous. Lost a tower shaft on a 767 which killed the fuel pump, hyd pump, oil pump ect… First cockpit indication and hard yaw almost coincidental.

Last edited by Sailvi767; 13th Jun 2025 at 13:16 .

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aerobat77
2025-06-13T12:44:00
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Post: 11900472
Question is why both engines lost power . Foreign object ingestion , contaminated fuel or both cutoff levels operated ? We do not know .

Any autothrust discussion is misleading since every pilot in that situation will firewall the levers whatever thrust reduction was selected for TO . the same is true for the RAT discussion- if enough hydraulic pressure was generated or not . The plane pitched up last second so there obviously was control until the end . Of course , without energy pulling alone will not bring you anywhere .

Why did both engines fail the same second as they would be cut off ???
sSquares
2025-06-13T12:48:00
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Post: 11900479
Originally Posted by aerobat77
Question is why both engines lost power . Foreign object ingestion , contaminated fuel or both cutoff levels operated ? We do not know .

Any autothrust discussion is misleading since every pilot in that situation will firewall the levers whatever thrust reduction was selected for TO . the same is true for the RAT discussion- if enough hydraulic pressure was generated or not . The plane pitched up last second so there obviously was control until the end . Of course , without energy pulling alone will not bring you anywhere .

Why did both engines fail the same second as they would be cut off ???
I was thinking the same thing.

The "gear-up" places additional load on the hydraulic pumps and the result of that is step increase of load on the generators. Was this the trigger of the failures?
violator
2025-06-13T12:56:00
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Post: 11900487
Originally Posted by aerobat77
Question is why both engines lost power . Foreign object ingestion , contaminated fuel or both cutoff levels operated ? We do not know .

Any autothrust discussion is misleading since every pilot in that situation will firewall the levers whatever thrust reduction was selected for TO . the same is true for the RAT discussion- if enough hydraulic pressure was generated or not . The plane pitched up last second so there obviously was control until the end . Of course , without energy pulling alone will not bring you anywhere .

Why did both engines fail the same second as they would be cut off ???

Let\x92s be careful about absolutes. Emirates 521 and Turkish 1951 are both examples of crews not firewalling the thrust levers despite low energy. The late pitch up could be due to the onset of a stall not an order from the crew.

TCMA is function which can reduce thrust on both engines simultaneously. It had done so in error in the past resulting in an AD. It uses air/ground logic so that it only operates on the ground, however note that at the point of thrust loss the gear is still down without any movement of the gear or doors. I would expect gear retraction to start before that height. Could we imagine an air/ground logic fault inhibiting gear retraction and allowing TCMA, which triggered (for whatever reason!) causing dual thrust loss? I would expect this to be in the realms of a combination of failures shown to be extremely impossible, but\x85

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HUTCHP
2025-06-13T14:18:00
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Post: 11900557
Originally Posted by tumtiddle
One has to assume that, given the seeming lack of lateral deviation from the flight path, and with no obvious yawing or rudder input visible on the videos, there's only two realistic conclusions here? Simultaneous dual engine failure of unknown cause if the RAT was indeed deployed; or flaps reduced too early leading to a stall if the RAT wasn't deployed.

Evidence in this thread would lean me toward the RAT deployed and therefore dual engine out scenario. As for the cause of that, well, only a couple of likely scenarios exist that could cause simultaneous shutdown of both engines, including mistaken or intentional use of the fuel cutoff levers.
A long while ago I posted on the Rumour thread about a ban on drinks on the flight deck sent to a BA, A350 mid Atlantic. It was prompted by 2 separate instances of uncommanded unrecoverable engine shut downs due to drink spills across the fuel cut off switches. It was widely mocked by the professional pilots on here until proven to be absolutely factually correct. If we are into speculation why not a drink left on the flight deck tips on aircraft pitch up and spills across both fuel cut-switches. Just sayin

Hutch

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go-around flap 15
2025-06-13T19:02:00
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Post: 11900815
Originally Posted by CW247
Some kind of thrust problem, whether real or incorrectly perceived, might have prompted for the DUAL ENG FAIL memory item being carried out. This calls for cutting off both engines and then on again.

We're all shouting each other down with two main different theories on why the aircraft lost lift so shortly after takeoff.

1) Incorrect flap retraction causing the aircraft to lose lift and unable to recover the energy in time. (Not unheard of and plenty of reports where this has happened - albeit usually not to a crash).

2) Loss of engine thrust backed up two potential pieces of evidence that back up the RAT was deployed (apparent RAT sound, potential RAT seen on low res video).

It is impossible to know which of these is the case. Considering this summary of memory items is there the potential for a combination of both theories to have taken place?

Inadvertant flap retraction by PNF leading the PF to sense a sink and loss of lift. Pushes the thrust levers forward to the firewall and still the aircraft sinks. PF looking through the HUD and so very much 'outside focused' and doesn't realise that PNF has instead moved the flaps. PF defaults to memory items for loss of thrust on both engines before PNF can realise or communicate to PF what they've done, start switches are cut off which drops the RAT and from that point they're only heading one way. This would satisfy the strongly held belief that the RAT was extended, whilst also following the more likely initial cause of an action slip by PNF starting the sequence, rather than a dual engine failure.

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