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DavidncRobson
July 12, 2025, 09:01:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920385 |
Possibility of Cut Off Switch Balanced on Gate
![]() Honeywell Switch Gate Configurations (Ref: honeywell_hwscs06627_1-1735572) This extract from the datasheet of the Honeywell switch installed in the B787 for switching between Cut Off and Run shows the various gates that can be incorporated in such a switch. I suspect that it is Configuration D which allows the switch to be in one or other of only 2 positions. But the centre gate has a relatively wide flat table on which the switch can rest if it is not moved correctly to either the Run or Cut Off position. I therefore think that it is not beyond the realm of possibility that both switches may have initially been resting on the gate and then slipped into the cut off position during take off. However, what militates against this theory are the words of the challenge, "Why did you do that?" suggesting that one pilot had seen the other pilot actually flip the switches. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
dsbery
July 12, 2025, 09:14:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920399 |
When I was a young F/O, some of the captains I flew with had the (annoying) habit of resting their hands just behind the thrust levers on their PM (PNF) sectors to 'be ready' to reject the takeoff. This would put the hands in the vicinity of the Fuel Cutoffs, which would, in turn, increase the chances of an unintended action on these switches. Is this a possibility, or am I way off?
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 12th July 2025 at 09:25 . Reason: Quote 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
biscuit74
July 12, 2025, 09:25:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920408 |
The report mentions that the immediate prior flight crew had written up a "STAB POS XDCR" status message, and that troubleshooting was carried out.
Is it possible that the troubleshooting/diagnostics left the stab cutout switches on the pedestal in the cutoff position, which went unnoticed until liftoff (i.e. upon noticing that the trim wasn't operable), resulting in a reach towards those switches, which are situated right next to the engine cutoff switches? It's possible, damn it. How dreadful if correct. That is also a worrying place to put vital switches. Handy place to rest your arm. I have one person I fly with who tends to rest his hand right on the flap lever (light aircraft) if he is not handling the aircraft. I really don't like that. It's bit like my current car, which has the handbrake 'switch'(!) on the central console, behind the gear lever. Just right for accidental operation - and it has been done. 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
JPI33600
July 12, 2025, 09:33:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920418 |
Well, speaking of fuel-cut switches, I read
NM-18-33 SAIB
with attention, and as a not-that-fluent english speaker, I stumbled on this sentence (my bold):
If the locking feature is
disengaged
, the switch can be moved between the two positions without lifting the switch during transition, and the switch would be exposed to the potential of inadvertent operation.
And while I was painfully crawling the thread, I noticed the following picture about an "undesirable condition": ![]() Incorrect lock tab position on fuel cut-off switch If this incorrect mounting is actually possible, it would possibly remain unnoticed from the pilots (normal "pull-up then move" action is unaffected), but it would cancel the protective function of the so-called "locking tab", and even limit the travel of the switch handle in both directions, making it more vulnerable to an undesired change of state. The photos above seem convincing enough, but I'd be very grateful for an informed opinion on this assembly mistake. Even if this is possible, the probability of both switches being unexpectedly snapped seems very remote to say the least, but not as remote as previously estimated. 12 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
gretzky99
July 12, 2025, 09:33:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920419 |
The only people proposing that something jammed or fell on the fuel shutoff switches, causing them to move to cutoff, are those that have never ever come close to physically touching these switches for real. Everyone who operates these switches every day, says it’s almost an impossibly, and that the switches had to be manually moved to cutoff.
Given the fuel shutoff switches were moved back to run, and then subsequently survived the entire crash without moving position, I think the “iPhone/credit card moved them” theory can be put to bed. Maybe it’s time some of those who lack the knowledge and experience of operating jet aircraft stop and listen to those that do. Even if they don’t like what they hear. 14 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Mrshed
July 12, 2025, 09:37:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920429 |
As a non pilot, I find this statement in the report interesting (in it's inclusion if nothing else), but I assume that this reference to the replacement module in 2023 (the module including the fuel cutoff switches?) we view as pretty irrelevant to cause?
The scrutiny of maintenance records
revealed that the throttle control module was replaced on VT-ANB in 2019 and 2023. However, the reason for the replacement was not linked to the fuel control switch. There has been no defect reported pertaining to the fuel control switch since 2023 on VT-ANB. 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
ETOPS
July 12, 2025, 10:14:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920456 |
I still think it should be possible to identify the voices from the CVR. During taxi out with P2 as pilot flying the exchanges between them should be obvious as to who is speaking. Thus the identity of the pilot asking about cut off would become clear.
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DTA
July 12, 2025, 10:26:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920464 |
Well, speaking of fuel-cut switches, I read
NM-18-33 SAIB
with attention, and as a not-that-fluent english speaker, I stumbled on this sentence (my bold):
I could hardly figure what the "disengaged" word meant in this context, so I did a Google search for the switch part numbers (especially "766AT614-3D") to figure the difference between them, and a page from this chinese web site was part of the results. And while I was painfully crawling the thread, I noticed the following picture about an "undesirable condition": ![]() Incorrect lock tab position on fuel cut-off switch If this incorrect mounting is actually possible, it would possibly remain unnoticed from the pilots (normal "pull-up then move" action is unaffected), but it would cancel the protective function of the so-called "locking tab", and even limit the travel of the switch handle in both directions, making it more vulnerable to an undesired change of state. The photos above seem convincing enough, but I'd be very grateful for an informed opinion on this assembly mistake. Even if this is possible, the probability of both switches being unexpectedly snapped seems very remote to say the least, but not as remote as previously estimated. One other useful thing from that web site is a partial schematic which shows the connection of the 4 poles in the switch. I believe this is from a 737NG but it should be the same idea. ![]() 2 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
InTheHighlands
July 12, 2025, 10:32:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920467 |
SLF. But I've read in full both original threads and this thread.
The Preliminary Report is written in excellent English, so I think one should pay close attention to what it says. One thing I noticed is that at the bottom of P4 NTSB are stated as "..participated in the investigation". However UK AAIB are only stated as "visited the site". My reading is that UK AAIB are not participating? Another is that some items on the timescale are v precise, others much more vague. A question : If the fuel switches were moved to cutoff, for whatever reason, what exactly would each pilot see as an EICAS warning. I'm still unclear why one pilot asked the other why he cut off - actual observation of the action, or message. 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
nachtmusak
July 12, 2025, 10:43:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920474 |
SLF: I have a small observation but I'm not sure what it means or if it has any relevance to the accident.
Previously I had assumed that the ADS-B data cut out at the same time as power was lost, so I imagined that whatever caused the fairly clear loss of thrust would have happened not too long before. But this report throws a bit of a wrench in my understanding of that. According to the report, the fuel cutoff switches transition from RUN to CUTOFF at or very shortly after 08:08:42 UTC. Both engines' N2 values pass below minimum idle speed and the RAT begins supplying hydraulic power at about 08:08:47. Does this not imply that the generators have already been lost? With the APU also being off (the APU inlet door is noted to start opening at 08:08:54), I would have expected ADS-B data to cut out at or before 08:08:47. But curiously FlightRadar24 at least claims to have received data frames from the aircraft until 08:08:51.640970, almost five seconds later and almost ten seconds after the transition to CUTOFF (though the last frame containing coordinates comes at 08:08:50.871005). Could anyone with relevant experience confirm how long it would take for AC power to be lost in this situation? Also, is it usual/unusual for a preliminary report like this to mention if/when the flight recorder switched to its independent power supply? I imagine it would definitely be in the final report, but I'd hoped it would be easily observable enough to be in this one. Beyond idle curiosity I'm asking because the report also says the no. 1 engine's cutoff switch transitioned from CUTOFF to RUN at "about 08:08:52", which oddly coincides with the last ADS-B data frame at 08:08:51.640970, and that seems important somehow. Or more likely I'm just ignorant of some quirk of the 787's electrical system. For reference FR24's CSV containing all ADS-B frames supposedly received from the aircraft can be found in their post here: https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/f...rom-ahmedabad/ 2 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Uplinker
July 12, 2025, 10:51:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920482 |
"The aircraft achieved the maximum recorded airspeed of 180 Knots IAS at about 08:08:42 UTC and immediately thereafter, the Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec."
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martinebrangan
July 12, 2025, 10:52:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920483 |
3 possibilities come to mind:
1. Pilot who moved fuel switches to off did not do so intentionally to cause the outcome, but for some reason unknown (extreme fatigue, medical condition, medication/drug) somehow confused the action of retracting gear with shutdown procedure at end of flight. 2. Unthinkably, but very possibly, pilot who moved fuel switches did so intentionally, likely planned ahead of time to catch out other pilot at a moment where focus was intently on flying & recovery most unlikely. Mental illness, drug use, personal circumstances behind it. 3. Something extraordinary which was never encountered before which caused or allowed fuel switches to move on their own. When both pilots flying & personal history is investigated, more is likely to emerge, maybe something to support possibility 1 above, where a pilot had on some previous occasions got sequences confused, or suffered brief episodes of seizures whee he took strange actions. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
AfricanSkies
July 12, 2025, 10:56:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920489 |
10 seconds to respond is a long long time if you’ve just made a silly mistake, you’d have those switches back on in a second. The startle factor isn’t really a factor here, because you
know
what just happened.
What is also unusual to me is the 4 second gap between moving Eng 1 fuel switch from cutoff to run, and moving Eng 2 fuel switch from cutoff to run. One would imagine that in this situation, speed of response would have been critical. Why the slow, deliberate ‘reaction’? 6 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Someone Somewhere
July 12, 2025, 11:02:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920495 |
The accident aircraft was written up for a status message of ”STAB POS XDCR” on the previous flight, which is a message relating to implausible data from the stab trim switches. It was released from maintenance (according to the preliminary report) at 06:40UTC ahead of an 07:40UTC departure (the crash flight) with ”no fault found”.
On the 787-8, as all modern planes, switches are not cabled as dry closing contacts all the way from the switch poles to the affected end devices (FADECs in the case of fuel cutoff switches), but rather connect locally to an analogue/digital converter to encode the switch position data onto the digital comms bus ARINC629 which allows all aircraft systems to talk to one another. Are the fuel cutoff switches, which are positioned adjacent to the stab trim switches, connected to the same ADC module which produced the error message on the previous flight, which maintenance was unable to resolve before the accident flight took off? I do not know, but it must be worthy of being looked into. I think they're called remote data concentrators - in many cases it is a conversion from a direct digital input to a bus signal; electronics would not call it an 'analog' input unless it was actually measuring a quantitative value.
Was the RAT deployed manually?
The report says, As per the EAFR data both engines N2 values passed below minimum idle speed, and the RAT hydraulic pump began supplying hydraulic power at about 08:08:47 UTC. This was 5 seconds after the fuel was cut off. It suggests to me that the RAT deployment was initiated while the engines were still above idle and generating electrical power. Obviously one of the pilots could have done it via depressing the switch, as it's a "dual engine failure/stall" memory item (see Air India Ahmedabad accident 12th June 2025 Part 2 ) that won't hurt anything. Is there a way for the RAT to deploy while the engines are still above idle? That is a very good question IMHO. 2 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
ManaAdaSystem
July 12, 2025, 11:03:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920497 |
tdracer hit the nail on the head in one of the earlier threads. Two possibilities: Software shut down the engines, or someone put the fuel switches to cutoff.
It wasn\x92t software. The question now is who shut down the engines and why? Argue fuel switches mechanics, liquid, falling items, electronics, etc, as much as you want, but who and why is where we will end up. 8 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
stickstirrer
July 12, 2025, 11:09:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920505 |
It doesn\x92t explain the reason behind going for the stab cut out switches when the report makes no mention of any stab warning - which surely would be a highly Important event given the closeness of the switches. 6 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Uplinker
July 12, 2025, 11:09:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920506 |
On this flight, the relative drop in noise and calm that follows the landing gear doors closing after the gear retracts during the initial climb, might have caused an action slip by PIC to perform the engine shut-down procedure used when parking on stand. Unlikely though, I would hope. 2 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
MaybeItIs
July 12, 2025, 11:15:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920513 |
Has anyone answered whether there is any message when the engine CutOff switches are transitioned in this situation?
If there isn't then the asker must have seen it being done. If there is, then it's still not absolutely pinned to a pilot, is it? 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Propellerhead
July 12, 2025, 11:21:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920518 |
Just read all 16 pages - been flying! I think comment \x93why did you cutoff\x94 is not the reaction I would expect from a Training Captain who has just witnessed the co-pilot turn both fuel control switches off. They would possibly utter an exclamation, but would surely correct the error immediately - this didn\x92t happen for 10secs. The words are more likely to have come from an FO who has both hands on the control column and is concentrating on the rotation.
Every flight we do as PM we move both fuel control switches to cutoff, 1 after the other, with a gap of about 1 sec between each one. It\x92s a learnt action in response to the phrase \x93shutdown\x94. Every sim the TC has conducted he will have moved critical switches without much thought in order to setup the sim for the exercise. I remember being slightly shocked one day on the aircraft, having been training in the sim the previous day, that I nearly operated a critical control without thought. It\x92s something I had to consciously guard against after that. There is no rational explanation for doing it though - moving both fuel control switches down instead of moving the gear lever up is not a likely action slip. It seems either a totally subconscious act or a totally deliberate act. Last edited by Propellerhead; 12th July 2025 at 12:11 . 6 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
AfricanSkies
July 12, 2025, 11:22:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920522 |
Engine shutdown/restart.
As Captains of Boeing twins, which fuel switch do you typically move first, Eng 1 or Eng 2? As First Officers, same question. Higher probability that the PM (Captain) manipulated the switches given the sequence of events. 2 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
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