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Capn Bloggs
July 12, 2025, 11:32:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920533 |
Originally Posted by
Uplinker
This might have been discussed but as has been suggested upthread; a possible scenario is that at some point, PIC took their hands off the thrust levers and/or placed them in a guarding position behind the thrust levers at their base - but by doing so unfortunately nudged the Fuel cut-off switches to 'Off' - perhaps 'helped' by there either being incorrectly fitted locking mechanisms or worn locking mechanisms ?
Originally Posted by
Uplinker
On this flight, the relative drop in noise and calm that follows the landing gear doors closing after the gear retracts during the initial climb, might have caused an action slip by PIC to perform the engine shut-down procedure used when parking on stand.
Mods, if you don't lock the thread, I'm going back to Facebook! ![]() 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
martinebrangan
July 12, 2025, 11:36:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920539 |
It's established fact both fuel control switches moved to CUTOFF 4 seconds after Vr, a deliberate guarded action, not easily done accidentally.
The CVR records one pilot asking \x93Why did you cut off?\x94, the other replies \x93I didn\x92t\x94. Then a bland Mayday attributed to the Captain \x93engine failure, returning\x94 in the middle of the crisis. The language, if reported correctly, feels strangely detached. No confusion, no urgency, no clear troubleshooting. Not drawing conclusions, but does anyone else see signs of performative behaviour, that is saying the right things outwardly, while being at odds with the underlying cause? I appreciate that both crew members lost their lives, however if we avoid discussing uncomfortable patterns, we miss the point of investigation and learning. 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
violator
July 12, 2025, 11:38:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920542 |
Seriously??
Come on! The gear never moved! You're an Airbus pilot; do you really think that could happen? If so, would the captain then sit there fat, dumb and happy wondering what was now going on... for 10 seconds? Even I would say "Sh1t" and whip those fuel switches back on quicker than the FO could say "WTF!". Mods, if you don't lock the thread, I'm going back to Facebook! ![]() 6 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Capn Bloggs
July 12, 2025, 11:39:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920544 |
Originally Posted by
Viloator
This is a discussion forum, of course there is (and should be!) significant discussion about a bizarre crash of a modern widebody aircraft. There will naturally be speculation and some nonsense but this is a discussion forum and that is to be expected.
Originally Posted by
Firesok
​​​​​​​
I posited this very thing weeks ago but it was immediately removed by mods.
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nachtmusak
July 12, 2025, 11:39:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920545 |
nachtmusak
the RAT can be deployed manually, and I believe a pilot did that here before power was lost.
The timing of data loss seemingly lining up with the first cutoff switch being flipped back to RUN seems a little too coincidental to me, but again hopefully someone with relevant knowledge has a mundane explanation for this. On top of that I feel like people are overestimating how long ten seconds actually is, especially considering some of those seconds are reported to have been taken up by confused dialogue (that isn't even reported in its entirety). I thought it was common wisdom that accidents are never down to one thing; it would be light-years from being the first time that suboptimal crew response turned a maybe-recoverable error into a definite disaster without an ounce of malice in the mix. 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Icarus2001
July 12, 2025, 11:40:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920548 |
Training Captain who has just witnessed a trainee turn both fuel control switches off.
People please, read the report before posting. https://aaib.gov.in/What's%20New%20A...t%20VT-ANB.pdf
​​​​​​​
In most international operations however the CA flies the first leg.
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Sailvi767
July 12, 2025, 11:42:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920553 |
The fuel control switches were moved to the off position approximately 3 seconds after weight off wheels.
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Sailvi767
July 12, 2025, 11:46:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920554 |
Was the RAT deployed manually?
The report says,
As per the EAFR data both engines N2 values passed below minimum idle speed, and the
RAT hydraulic pump began supplying hydraulic power at about 08:08:47 UTC.
This was 5 seconds after the fuel was cut off.
It suggests to me that the RAT deployment was initiated while the engines were still above idle and generating electrical power. Obviously one of the pilots could have done it via depressing the switch, as it's a "dual engine failure/stall" memory item (see Air India Ahmedabad accident 12th June 2025 Part 2 ) that won't hurt anything. Is there a way for the RAT to deploy while the engines are still above idle? 2 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Seamless
July 12, 2025, 11:49:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920556 |
If the thrust levers were found in idle but, according to the EAFR, were set to TO thrust until the end, doesn\x92t that also raise further questions? I mean: Of course, the impact causes compression at the nose, but the centrifugal forces act in the opposite direction. So, if there is an objective inconsistency here, and we have a pilot who says he did not operate the fuel cut-off switches, while the EAFR indicates otherwise, then we have yet another inconsistency.
![]() Relevant section in the preliminary report 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Sailvi767
July 12, 2025, 11:50:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920557 |
10 seconds to respond is a long long time if you’ve just made a silly mistake, you’d have those switches back on in a second. The startle factor isn’t really a factor here, because you
know
what just happened.
What is also unusual to me is the 4 second gap between moving Eng 1 fuel switch from cutoff to run, and moving Eng 2 fuel switch from cutoff to run. One would imagine that in this situation, speed of response would have been critical. Why the slow, deliberate ‘reaction’? 2 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
AfricanSkies
July 12, 2025, 11:59:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920565 |
Regardless of what actually happened in that cockpit, reasoning like this seems completely backwards to me. Since when do humans reliably, instantly recognise that they've just made a mistake? If they were
that
attuned to their actions they're almost certainly attuned enough to
not
make the mistake in the first place, especially if we're talking about an action slip. I've e.g. absentmindedly added salt to my tea instead of sugar and I certainly didn't immediately realise that I'd done that - in fact it took a good few seconds even after sipping and spitting it out for my brain to catch up to what must have happened. Even if an observer had pointed out to me before drinking it that my tea had salt in it, I would just have been confused because
obviously
I wouldn't do something that silly (spoiler alert: I did)..
When they rip their hand away from the hot stove they’ve just touched. Had this been a silly mistake, it was one with immediate, severe consequences, not something like discovering a mistake you made some time ago. As for response to the mistake, see below
On top of that I feel like people are overestimating how long ten seconds actually is, especially considering some of those seconds are reported to have been taken up by confused dialogue (that isn't even reported in its entirety). I thought it was common wisdom that accidents are never down to one thing; it would be light-years from being the first time that suboptimal crew response turned a maybe-recoverable error into a definite disaster without an ounce of malice in the mix.
Again, the situation isn’t a surprise to you, you know what just happened. 5 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Mb194dc
July 12, 2025, 12:04:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920568 |
Deliberate pilot action should be ruled out until any evidence and motivation for why that's the case emerges.
All we know is the fuel cut off switches were flipped to Cutoff for 10 seconds and then to run again. Not how or by what. The focus should be on how this could occur. Accidentally, technical malfunction, a foreign object somehow hitting and moving them or other reason? Theories needs to be tested in a cockpit with the exact configuration of this aircraft and with the angles and forces involved as much as we can. It should be possible to simulate it pretty closely and whatever happened should be repeatable. It's going to be something extremely unlikely, or we'd have seen it before in 10 years of 787 service. 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
AfricanSkies
July 12, 2025, 12:14:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920575 |
Deliberate pilot action should be ruled out until any evidence and motivation for why that's the case emerges.
All we know is the fuel cut off switches were flipped to Cutoff for 10 seconds and then to run again. Not how or by what. The focus should be on how this could occur. Accidentally, technical malfunction, a foreign object somehow hitting and moving them or other reason? Theories needs to be tested in a cockpit with the exact configuration of this aircraft and with the angles and forces involved as much as we can. It should be possible to simulate it pretty closely and whatever happened should be repeatable. It's going to be something extremely unlikely, or we'd have seen it before in 10 years of 787 service. He didn\x92t say, \x93did you just see that pink elephant fall off the dashboard?\x94 How are you going to \x93simulate something pretty closely\x94 when it\x92s also \x93extremely unlikely\x94? The chance that it was a mechanical or electrical failure of both fuel switches , 2 seconds apart , is for all intents and purposes, zero. Therefore they were moved by hand. 10 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Pilot DAR
July 12, 2025, 12:34:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920585 |
From a PPRuNe perspective, good discussion here is desirable, as it is from a pilot perspective too. Nonsense or needlessly accusatory discussion, though it is discussion here, is not so good for pilots, and other well informed readers.
Some members want this thread locked, which is a choice we moderators can make, other members want discussion, which, if good, is desirable for everyone. We moderators prefer to not lock threads, we like to moderate, not terminate! So, could we all agree that knowing that both condition switches were selected to cutoff by a pilot, we do not have information as to which pilot? What interest are we serving anyone by speculating which pilot here and now? Perhaps later, a full report adds to this knowledge, but possibly never. I see four groups of readers here: Pilots of two crew airplanes, who are now instinctively more alert to what they are doing, and what their co crew is doing; Single crew pilots, who know that they are their own guardian against mistakes anyway; Designers, who are now thinking about improving designs to minimize the effects of pilot error; And, politely, everyone else. Pilots of two crew airplanes, you know what you have to do. Is slighting two members of our community helpful right now? In my opinion, I don't see how... Single pilots, you're on your own. Designers, yeah, we're thinking.... Everyone else, the professional pilots forum is accepting your participation, please be respectful with what you post - you're posting it about pilots who recently passed away with high trauma. Is what you're about to post something helpful? Do you really want to say it? Will the pilot group be better because you did? We moderators don't want to lock the thread. And, we don't want to allow our core group of professional pilots to become profoundly aggravated by pages of low value posts. Please make our moderator jobs easier for us! Thanks, Pilot DAR 13 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
sarah737
July 12, 2025, 12:47:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920592 |
Deliberate pilot action should be ruled out until any evidence and motivation for why that's the case emerges.
All we know is the fuel cut off switches were flipped to Cutoff for 10 seconds and then to run again. Not how or by what. The focus should be on how this could occur. Accidentally, technical malfunction, a foreign object somehow hitting and moving them or other reason?. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Breadfan
July 12, 2025, 12:52:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920600 |
Last edited by Breadfan; 12th July 2025 at 21:53 . 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
andy2fnl
July 12, 2025, 16:02:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920678 |
Fuel switch to engine linkage: digital or analog?
I have not seen this question asked anywhere and I'm a software engineer (non-aviation), so felt I had to ask it:
Do these solid-looking mechanical fuel switches really act directly upon the fuel system or are they routed via the control system as logic (0/1) signals? It would certainly save a lot of copper and looming time to convert their output into a logic signal before it leaves the cockpit... If the former, ignore all that follows, as it is wrong. If the latter, a control software glitch or electrical noise/short could cause the fuel switches to appear to the control system as being briefly off, while the pilots see the physical switches are still in the on position. Even if such a noisy electrical signal rapidly reverted to correctly indicating fuel-switch on-state after even a few milliseconds, any control system might well have embarked upon a relatively slow relight/startup/engine-protection procedure. In such a scenario, the pilot who first noticed the engines spinning down would query it, while the other pilot would look at the physical switches and see that they were (still) on, and initially be non-plussed by the question. Need to ask the question now satisfied. Andy 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
voyageur9
July 12, 2025, 18:03:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920720 |
Question: (which I hope goes to the issue of lessons possibly to be learned.)
Irrespective of whether the switching to cutoff was inadvertent or deliberate or (somehow) without human involvement is there any other time in the course of operations from start-up to shutdown except rotation when those switches should be disabled for 20-30 seconds? Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
njc
July 12, 2025, 18:11:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920724 |
(First, I've read the whole thread, and most of the content in the previous threads, though they are obviously of less relevance in some areas now.)
Every sim the TC has conducted he will have moved critical switches without much thought in order to setup the sim for the exercise. I remember being slightly shocked one day on the aircraft, having been training in the sim the previous day, that I nearly operated a critical control without thought. It\x92s something I had to consciously guard against after that.
It seems extremely undesirable for TCs to end up habituated to taking actions like this without thought. I wonder if it creates a case for the sim setups being performed by non-flying personnel? Meanwhile, I read the prelim report. The English is generally fairly good but I note multiple mistakes/typos, and some oddities. One such oddity is that the timestamp of the second cutoff switch change isn't listed explicitly anywhere I can find, but instead just a relative time: "gap of 01 second". To write "1" as "01" like this invites speculation that it's a typo for 0.1; this is unlikely, given the polling frequency mentioned by some posts above, but nonetheless seems odd. (I am aware that Indian conventions differ from those in US/UK English, including placement of commas in large numbers, but I don't think this is such a case.) Another indication to suggest it hasn't been proof-read very effectively: the FADEC is also described as a "... Dual ..." instead of "... Digital ...". 2 users liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
Bristolhighflyer
July 12, 2025, 18:16:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920726 |
One suggestion about why the report was sanitised and a fuller transcript was not provided could be to delay public reaction on this and avoid copycat events.
Jump seaters should be mandatory on all flights. On AS2059 the jumpseater maniac was overpowered by the other pilots. Two against one is better than pilot against pilot. The 10 second delay could be explained by a cabin altercation when one pilot saw the other one deliberately perform the cutoff. 1 user liked this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads. |
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