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Much conjecture about flaps. I grabbed this image from one of the widely-circulating videos. Looks clear to me that LE slats are extended and at least 5 probably 15 on flaps.

AI171

Subjects AI171

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pearly White

Much conjecture about flaps. I grabbed this image from one of the widely-circulating videos. Looks clear to me that LE slats are extended and at least 5 probably 15 on flaps.

AI171

Could that be deflected ailerons and not flaps? ( not familiar with 787 wing)

Subjects AI171

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tdracer

Sorry but you are wrong. The RAT was basic on the 767 - every single 767 built has one. The Gimli glider deployed the RAT (1982), and the Delta dual engine shutdown out of LAX deployed the RAT.

Confirmed, as so we can all move on, reference attached. And for the guy that flew 767\x92s for 40 years and didn\x92t know anything about it 😂

Subjects Dual Engine Failure  Engine Failure (All)  Engine Shutdown  RAT (All)  RAT (Deployment)

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RAT? Here\x92s an unprocessed frame from the video. I really don\x92t see that the RAT has deployed.

Subjects RAT (All)  RAT (Deployment)

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Graphic produced from GE and later FR24 data showing the 8 airborne plot points between rotation and the transponder dropping out:



Elapsed time between first and last points was 4.32 s, giving an average groundspeed of 179 kts.

Subjects FlightRadar24

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher

Not really consistent with flaps retraction assuming this statement is genuine , and if correct
Anyone here knows what " green flickering lights " in the cabin could be ?.emergency exit light?

The emergency exit sign on a B787 at the exit rows. Illuminates with loss of electrical power.

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Some kind of thrust problem, whether real or incorrectly perceived, might have prompted for the DUAL ENG FAIL memory item being carried out. This calls for cutting off both engines and then on again.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by CW247

Some kind of thrust problem, whether real or incorrectly perceived, might have prompted for the DUAL ENG FAIL memory item being carried out. This calls for cutting off both engines and then on again.

Below 100 feet? Come on!

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DGCA order to Air India

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Quote:

Originally Posted by smith

The speculation that the pilot monitoring retracted the flaps instead of the gear is a valid one. There are a few incidents off the top of my head that I can think of. The BEA trident in Staines that stalled and crashed had had its droops retracted early, the Nepal ATR on approach, the PF called for flaps 30 and the PM pulled the props to feather and more recently when the BA 777 pilot at Gatwick pulled the power back instead of pulling on the yoke at Vr. As they say, if it can happen, it will happen.

I am curious how this can happen? The handle for the gear is on a completely different place in the cockpit that the flaps handle.
Possibly a B787 pilot could give us an idea?

What is nearby the flaps handle are the switches for the "fuel control".

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefT

I am curious how this can happen? The handle for the gear is on a completely different place in the cockpit that the flaps handle.
Possibly a B787 pilot could give us an idea?

What is nearby the flaps handle are the switches for the "fuel control".

BOEING, AIRBUS, MD, it doesn't matter, handles for Gear, Flaps different places, different shape. But it has happened and it will happen.....

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefT

I am curious how this can happen? The handle for the gear is on a completely different place in the cockpit that the flaps handle.
Possibly a B787 pilot could give us an idea?

What is nearby the flaps handle are the switches for the "fuel control".

that\x92s why the switches and levers are designed like this. The gear lever is round like a wheel and the flap lever is, well flap shaped. Mixing up switches was/is common. Happened to me in my training pulled the mixture full out instead of carb heat on my approach. Immediately realised the change in the engine and pushed it back in before it cut out completely and engine started up again. Change of underwear required.

Subjects Gear Lever

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefT

I am curious how this can happen? The handle for the gear is on a completely different place in the cockpit that the flaps handle.
Possibly a B787 pilot could give us an idea?

What is nearby the flaps handle are the switches for the "fuel control".

You are thinking about it in the wrong way. It's probably not even that they intend to retract the gear but pull the wrong lever, more that the mistake is intending to retract the flaps and doing so because they thought they had already done the gear or that they weren't thinking at all. We all have times, especially when tired, when we run on 'autopilot' without realising in the moment or just have a complete brain fart (eg. looking for your keys when they are in your hand). Nothing is completely failsafe. Thats why they do confirmations as a mitigant but it only takes a couple of holes in the Swiss cheese model to line up and things can snowball from there.

I don't think its the likely explanation here though given the evidence so far.

Subjects Action slip

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefT

I am curious how this can happen? The handle for the gear is on a completely different place in the cockpit that the flaps handle.
Possibly a B787 pilot could give us an idea?

What is nearby the flaps handle are the switches for the "fuel control".

Please READ the thread, your question is answered in post 690.

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Flaps up or down - you decide

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Bit surprising that we don't have confirmation of the 2nd FDR recovery by now, especially with the seemgly realtively intact tail section. The
DFDR was reportedly recovered from this rooftop:




The CVR can't far away and muss be a rather high priority search item.

Interdentally I have read some reports mentioning a DVR (Digital VIDEO recorder). Is AI fitting such devices in their aircrafts ?

Subjects CVR  DFDR  FDR

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Quote:

Originally Posted by CW247

Some kind of thrust problem, whether real or incorrectly perceived, might have prompted for the DUAL ENG FAIL memory item being carried out. This calls for cutting off both engines and then on again.

We're all shouting each other down with two main different theories on why the aircraft lost lift so shortly after takeoff.

1) Incorrect flap retraction causing the aircraft to lose lift and unable to recover the energy in time. (Not unheard of and plenty of reports where this has happened - albeit usually not to a crash).

2) Loss of engine thrust backed up two potential pieces of evidence that back up the RAT was deployed (apparent RAT sound, potential RAT seen on low res video).

It is impossible to know which of these is the case. Considering this summary of memory items is there the potential for a combination of both theories to have taken place?

Inadvertant flap retraction by PNF leading the PF to sense a sink and loss of lift. Pushes the thrust levers forward to the firewall and still the aircraft sinks. PF looking through the HUD and so very much 'outside focused' and doesn't realise that PNF has instead moved the flaps. PF defaults to memory items for loss of thrust on both engines before PNF can realise or communicate to PF what they've done, start switches are cut off which drops the RAT and from that point they're only heading one way. This would satisfy the strongly held belief that the RAT was extended, whilst also following the more likely initial cause of an action slip by PNF starting the sequence, rather than a dual engine failure.

Subjects Action slip  Dual Engine Failure  Engine Failure (All)  Fuel (All)  Fuel Cutoff Switches  Memory Items  RAT (All)  RAT (Deployment)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Quantz

Is it relevant ?
Seems to denote poorly maintained aircraft.
https://www.threads.com/@r.bharowal/...jcQdTrixV8PbWw

A response on that Thread:

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefT

I am curious how this can happen? The handle for the gear is on a completely different place in the cockpit that the flaps handle.
Possibly a B787 pilot could give us an idea?

What is nearby the flaps handle are the switches for the "fuel control".

SLF question... how difficult would it be to accidentally knock the fuel control switches to "Cutoff", say if your hand slipped from the throttle levers? And if you did that, how long would it take after flipping them back to "Run" before you got thrust again?

Subjects Fuel (All)  Fuel Cutoff Switches

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The Daily Telegraph has apparently put out a photo that is of the rear view of the aircraft, showing the TE flaps have a visible gap between the flap element and the wing, that is, the flaps are extended. If they were not, you get to see nothing. Int he gap, you can clearly see the fan exit of both engines.... ergo, the TE flaps are deployed. This same article then highlights this and exclaims that the flaps were retracted.

Is it safe to assume that the education standard of writers and editors of UK papers has been depleted somewhat?

Such comments are inflammatory to those that have lost family in this tragedy, and directly impugn the flight crew, and are factually, grossly wrong. This isn't just sloppy journalism, it is defamatory to those that cannot speak in their own defence. Sorry Mods, but someone needs to stand up for those that cannot against offensive drivel that passes for informed media commentary.

Here is a photo of the aircraft at the point that some numpties have stated the flaps are not employed. Apparently the authors should visit spec savers, or get a guide dog at least. At least, they get great blue coloured parking. In the same image, the RAT is observable.

The comments that are floated that some experts suggest that the crew may have not been able to get the gear up and may have retracted the flaps shows an utter lack of understanding of the certification basis of our aircraft. The flaps are out at a relevant TO flap extension setting for the conditions.

The same bastion of British broadsheets shows an image that is already on this thread, of a takeoff from mid field, while at the same time showing a still of the NE corner video near the RVR gauge east of the PAPI at the N end of the runway. One can only conclude that there is a dearth of good loo paper in the UK, and this standard of rigorous investigative reporting can be best applied to ones soft spots for personal hygiene. take 5 minutes out and do an triangulation from the point of observation, and surprise, the aircraft lifts off abeam the closed high speed taxiway. Not at the end of the runway, 1250 meters north of the DER. Taking ADSB data and not running a validation of it is mentally lazy and leads to hurtful assumptions that taking a slight amount of reasonable due care would have avoided.

rude letter follows...







https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...a-plane-crash/


This is interesting enough without dealing with the media who show once again the mental acuity and sharp insight of a bowling ball.

Subjects ADSB  RAT (All)  Thread Moderation

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