Posts about: "Jump Seat" [Posts: 36 Pages: 2]

Originally Posted by 51bravo

Question to Human Factors experts or pilots having experienced/witnessed that.

Disclaimer: I never flew something with retractable undercarriage, just flaps. I also acknowledge that under substantial stress, and especially panic, your lizard brain awakes and takes over your Einstein brain. But on the other hand less so in routine handlings before things go south.

So - my question: If you look at the 787 cockpit layout (google, YT, your picture), how can Flaps Up instead of Gears Up be executed? It is a totally different activation of arm muscles, hand muscles, fingers even when not looking what you do ("three greens no red" anyone?). I mean, I totally understand the mishandlig of the switches and buttons on the Vilnius B737 - taking out hydraulics instead of anti ice. Switches are close, switches are similar. But gears and flaps levers - I just dont understand why still many people here set this on the high probability list. I absolutely don't buy it. At least it would be on my possible causes on a list far, far down. Considering the deck layout on a 787.

Do I miss some physiological/psychological human brain factors?
Because some of the professionals seem to have written here - "quite possible" in real stressfull world. Maybe on some GA aircraft where flaps select is also sometimes on the front panel. But 787?

NB: I am still on the symmetrical and significant thrust loss hypothesis ~10s into the airborne time.

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK

A TCMA bug just doesn't bear thinking about, I really hope that doesn't turn out to be the case.

Originally Posted by twochai

Does anybody know if the jump seat was occupied?

Originally Posted by sabenaboy

I was wondering what the cockpit jumpseat policy in Air India is? Is it known if someone was flying along in the cockpit?

Originally Posted by T28B

Were there another person, one expects that evidence will be found as the CVR data is deciphered by the investigating team.

Originally Posted by tdracer

It is conceivable that a pilot - reaching down to the center console to adjust something unrelated - could have muscle memory cause him to turn the fuel off to both engines.

Originally Posted by MLHeliwrench

The trouble I have with that theory is the there is nothing routinely toggled while flying in that throttle quadrant area on a 787 or 777. It is fuel or stab cut off/out. Especially so at such a critical phase of flight. Has it been confirmed if there was a jump seater or not on this flight?

Originally Posted by MLHeliwrench

Has it been confirmed if there was a jump seater or not on this flight?

Originally Posted by Bristolhighflyer

One suggestion about why the report was sanitised and a fuller transcript was not provided could be to delay public reaction on this and avoid copycat events.
Jump seaters should be mandatory on all flights. On AS2059 the jumpseater maniac was overpowered by the other pilots. Two against one is better than pilot against pilot.
The 10 second delay could be explained by a cabin altercation when one pilot saw the other one deliberately perform the cutoff.

Originally Posted by KSINGH

are you saying a third pilot or a cabin crew with minimal (see none) technical knowledge, less rigorous training and more often than not a fairly small female?

and frankly having spoken to some of these cabin crew who are quite open about their mental \x91struggles\x92 I can\x92t say I\x92d feel more secure with them sat out of my eye line but within reach of certain critical controls\x85.

wasn\x92t the 2 person rule initiated after Germanwings and then quite quickly abandoned because many airlines saw the risks of cabin crew in the flight deck more routinely with a single pilot as more of a risk factor than the alternative?

Originally Posted by ignorantAndroid

No, it was abandoned because the airlines found it inconvenient and EASA caved to their demands. At least one large airline simply ignored the rule while it was in effect.

U.S. airlines have had to follow that rule for decades. How many accidents have been caused by rogue cabin crew?

Originally Posted by galaxy flyer

Alaska had a close call when a jump seater on some illicit drug tried to shut down engines using the fire handles. FDX had the jump seater attack the crew.

Originally Posted by Bunk-Rest

Whoa\x85
Suppose there was a third person on the flight deck ?
Unauthorised possibly, knowing air india\x85.
And he did it.
He is out of the pilots field of view, he can reach them easily with both hands, and absolutely explains the verbal exchange that took place.
When does the voice recorder start running?
Engine start if I remember vaguely. So the presence of a third person may be totally undetected in the recordings.

Originally Posted by Bunk-Rest

Why did you do cutoff ? Question may have been directed at the third person in the cockpit who had actually done it.

Originally Posted by ignorantAndroid

The Alaska case was a pilot, FDX was a flight engineer.

Originally Posted by galaxy flyer

FDX jump seater was a disgruntled employee, not any kind of crew.