Posts about: "Mayday" [Posts: 144 Pages: 8]

This seems the most likely. Loss of thrust in both engines.

Mayday call included \x93no thrust, losing power\x94.

Not a great day out for a professional pilot. RIP.

Couldn't agree more - never understood this - got to say, calling a mayday seconds into an event (particularly when still down in the dirt) does my head in - nobody is coming up to help. I think you need to keep the focus completely on the task at hand. In an emergency, external distractions destroy checklist SOPs, crew coordination etc etc - I try and keep ATC, company maintenance, etc etc disruptions out of the cockpit until everything is under control.

In terms of the Mayday message, maybe Reading into it too much, it was not \x91lost power\x92 but loosing power. \x91
clearly we have no idea at this point how fast this happened, but slowly enough to state this.

however it has been seen with the Jetstar incident below that both engines can lose power simultaneously due to fuel filter blockage due to something in separate tanks.
is there someway the tanker could have picked up some contamination somewhere!?! I know the biocide (showing that even previously \x91safe\x92 additives can cause issues) in question is no longer used.

https://aerossurance.com/safety-mana...-genx-biocide/

I think this is the wrong attitude and technique, but it's an opinion.

To me the radio call signals possibly helplessness and confusion.I do not think a pilot who understands what is going on would make the call. He would be too busy trouble shooting. It could be a sign that is was NOT an engine failure or a bird strike ( in both cases they would have mentioned it). Nor a deliberate crash. They had no idea why they could not climb and that tells me they most probably retracted the flaps. Time will tell.

There isn't enough clarity on numerous issues, and without answers to the following, zero conclusions can be made as to a possible cause. This is definitely one that could go in numerous directions. Anyone claiming to have the definitive answers must have the FDR data, and I'm assuming that shouldn't take too long to be located and analysed.

1a. Were flaps deployed at start of take off roll?
1b. Were flaps retracted coinciding with climb rate reduction?
2. Did the RAT definitely deploy? The videos are grainy low quality. AI improvement surely isn't reliable.
3. If the RAT deployed, would that indicate complete power loss?
4. Was there any other audio indicating thrust loss or variations during departure?
5. Can we confirm the pilot Mayday indicating thrust loss? If so, that needs investigation as a first priority. The pilot was telling us the cause. Unless we have alternative information he should be believed.
6. Why was the gear not retracted? Distraction, hydraulic failure, flap instead of gear, intentionally, the possibilities are endless.
7. If complete thrust loss occurred, other than a severe fuel issue, what could cause simultaneous flameout? That would be almost unimaginable, yet this is what the pilot allergy said happened. It would have massive ramifications if that gets confirmed.

I don't think the video clips we have are clear enough to say anything at all at this stage. Flaps are hard to see on 787 imo for departure settings. All I can say is it appeared to climb well in the first seconds, then coinciding with the point that gear would usually be retracted, lift appears to very quickly be lost. That indicates sudden speed loss, or lift loss. Speed loss would be thrust, lift loss would be flap retraction if thrust was still available.

The pilot allegedly reported thrust loss, that should be highest on the list of causes imo. In the case of double engine failure without any apparent outside influence visible on videos, that would be quite something for investigators to fathom.

I don't know if anyone has data to show speed trend at the point the aircraft starts to descend, or a better audio for thrust variations at that point. I'm guessing that the update frequency on FR24 would be too slow to show that sudden change at the highest point achieved.

We'll have the answers soon enough, all I can say is there appears to be no clear answers here without the data recorders or clear improved information. Indeed no conclusions whatsoever can be made as to crew actions either.

RIP crew and passengers, condolences to the families.

This seems to be the best summary so far. Based on the detail of the mayday its probably time to rule out the flaps, load shift, and other suggestions. Latest news is a quote from the survivor: " Suddenly, the lights started flickering – green and white – then the plane rammed into some establishment that was there" .

I cant think of any reason for electrical failure and "no thrust" (as per statements) without any visual cues other than (a) suicide, or (b) starvation. Is there any electrical failure that can cause fuel valves to close? I dont fly Boeing, so can any Dreamliner driver explain what conditions could trigger an overspeed and auto engine shutdown (quote from Google below)? Would short runway, and hot/low QNH do it? Also, what happened to the order demanding a full power down/recycle every 51 days?

The EEC has build in protections to protect the engine. One of these protections is the Engine Overspeed Protection, when the core engine exceeds 120% the EEC shuts off the fuel to the applicable engine.

There is evidence on this thread that flaps were not the issue. The Mayday call and the evidence that the RAT was out is more convincing than a gear/flap mixup. Early on in this thread the gear/flap mixup had a lot of traction but after more photographic evidence surfaced it has more or less been put to rest, for me anyhow.

True. But possibly the pilot realised the gravity of their situation and decided that one last message of "what's happening" may help any following investigation.

Hi everyone, 787 driver here, well lets look at the facts we see
very late rotation, but pitch and departure path look like normal up until stalling point.
mayday was called but without clarification or purpose, for me this indicates stress in the flight deck, especially low level
no smoke or fire from engines, I would rule out severe damage or birdstrikes at this point
Flaps 5 departure would be difficult to see as a pixel on a bad video, but they would not have made the rotation at that speed so I assume they used flaps during departure, also you would neglect to ECL's and a config warning
no RAT to be seen either, again ruling out dual engine failure, also the climb would not have been so parabolic
maybe single engine fuel starvation/Mechanical issue/dirty fuel, but seems unlikely, the flight path is too gentle
Gear stays down, and even though the pitch remains the same, they start losing lift and basically stall the aircraft into the ground
don't forget, Air India uses 64/67K engines on they're 787's, with temp of 41 degrees (ambient, so even more above tarmac) and a QNH of 1001, those engines will be pushed to "hard work mode" already

IMHO, two things I could assume happend
- either single engine failure, no pitch adjustment and speed fell below Vstall, OR, most likely
- mixup of Flaps moved to up position in stead of Gear moved to up position, that would clarify the gear, would clarify the loss of lift and that the engines have no smoke, and no RAT,

Current information from the sole survivor indicates that he heard a loud sound and that the aircraft then seemed to float (glide) before then hitting the buildings.

To me this indicates total loss of power, especially if we look at the mayday call too.

Assuming the reported Mayday message is correct then a final message indicating a hopeless situation has to be a possibility.

Possibly the Captain did correctly perceive the information on the status of the aircraft

Possibly he did correctly comprehend the situation.

Possibly he did project the situation into the future

(Endsley &Jones)

a few things stated as fact there without any evidence to support the assertions.

very late rotation - stated several times on this thread but zero evidence for it and some analysis suggests the rotation was at roughly the same location as previous departures of the same flight

no RAT - others, including one with a lot of experience with the sound of a deployed RAT, insist that it was deployed. The video evidence is unclear.

Not saying you\x92re necessarily wrong about anything but I take issue with those that state as fact things that are not (yet) supported by any evidence at all

Many GE engines - including GEnx-1B/67s - require microprocessors to be routinely replaced due to soldered joints failing after multiple cycles. There is a 2021 AD that notes "This AD was prompted by an in-service occurrence of loss of engine thrust control resulting in uncommanded high thrust" (I cannot post a link but google: 2021-25491 (86 FR 66447))

I am NOT suggesting that this specific failure mode happened here - for one thing, this would happen to one engine, not both. But on any flight it is possible that a unique set of sensor inputs to occur that are the first time any system has encountered them (example: NATS incident in 2023), and then you need failover & redundancy to keep things working.

The GE Aviation CCS system, which includes thrust management, has up to now flown for 1m flight hours without incident. It would be interesting to hear the perspectives of any engineers familiar with the system.

So what is known at the moment?

- The flight crew consisted of an experienced Captain and a First Officer with a little more than 1000 hours. Whether or not this flight was a training event appears not yet determined.

- The aircraft departed from Ahmedabad, using full length of the runway, lifting off at an appropriate distance from the departure end and reaching an altitude of less than 1000ft before descending again to an impact. It therefore got out of ground effect. Also, the power selected for takeoff was sufficient to get the aircraft airborne within the constraints of the field.

- The landing gear was left down much longer than usual and remained so for the whole duration of the flight.

- Flaps appear to have been extended normally to a setting not triggering any pre-takeoff configuration warning. On the 787, extended TE flaps are not as obviously visible as on other types, especially with low quality pictures, but a gap between the flaps and the wing proper was visible, showing a glimpse of the engine nacelle through it.

- Whether or not the RAT was out appears not entirely clear, although there are strong indicators of it being deployed. If this is confirmed, this seems to point to a major engine or electric issue.

- Engine noise is surprisingly low on the available videos, either drowned out by environnmental noise (the 787 is not a noisy bird) or due to lack of power produced.

- Descent was at a very high AOA and appears not intentional. The crew did not decide to push the nose down.

- The aircraft appears to have been structurally intact with nothing issuing from it. No debris, smoke, fumes or liquids were in trail, no parts were observed to have been lost or dropped.

- There seems to have been a mayday call from the aircraft, possibly indicating power issues.


The crew seems to have found no reason to abort the takeoff before V1. Whatever befell them must have struck past that speed and given them cause not to retract the landing gear. Whether the lever was not moved or the systems did not react to it is not determined yet.

The aircraft had enough energy to climb to about 600, in any case less than 1000ft altitude. Ahmedabad seems not to call for a specific NADP, but whether it was NADP1, 2, A or B that was flown, it is fairly safe to assume that its normal regime would have been takeoff power and takeoff flap settings at that time.

Multiple other aircraft departed from or arrived at Ahmedabad before the accident, of which at least one must in all probability have taken onboard the fuel from the local bowsers in substantial amounts and used it without troubles, or else there would have been other flights in trouble due to this.

I am awaiting the preliminary report from the authorities and the readout of the data recorders with much interest.

If those numbers are correct about 120kts then. Interesting

We haven't thought about it because it didn't happen. We have a video of the plane with no engine sound and the RAT clearly audible. The RAT is also visible in the video. The pilot sent a mayday mentioning loss of power. The only survivor says the cabin went dark and lights were flickering. It's pretty compelling no?

Why are people still talking about flaps and incorrect takeoff data settings?

Well of course they didn't understand what's going on. Something happened to them that has happened to a handful of people in history and is supposed to be essentially impossible. They didn't have the 'luxury' Sully had of a few thousand feet safety of altitude margin to think about it either.

Of course the didn't know why they'd lost power, they just knew they'd lost it. Yeh they would have felt pretty helpless 200 feet above the ground surrounded by tall buildings. My heart goes out to them being by that point no more than passengers to their own death. At least the actual passengers didn't have to watch the building coming at them knowing there was no escape. It's unthinkable.

So I don't know how on earth you think this suggests the flap theory. You're reading an awful lot into the words of a man who was likely processing the fact he's about to die in a horrific way.

Can we just forget about flaps? We have pictures of the wing at the crash site with flaps extended. The plane is on video with no engine noise and the RAT audible and visible. The pilot sent a mayday saying they'd lost thrust. The only survivor says the lights were flickering and the cabin went dark. Why are some people so desperate to pin this on a pilot mistake there is zero evidence for?

The visual evidence of the RAT being deployed (or not) is a bit dubious, but the audio evidence is pretty solid. It's also corroborated by the best eye witnesses we have, the pilots, explaining that they had lost power in their mayday call. And corroborated again by the second best eye witness we have, the passenger who survived, commenting on the 'green flickering lights' of the emergency exit signs indicating power loss. And corroborated again by the (now confirmed) posts on social media from the previous set of passengers complaining that aircon, entertainment, lights etc on the plain weren't working.

The idea that the flaps weren't set for take off also seems incredibly dubious given that in several frames of the original footage you can see the engines through the wings, on both sides, something not explainable by grainy footage or compression artifacts, and only possible if the flaps are down.

Edit to add: the reports on social media from the previous passengers complaining about non-functional electronics have been confirmed

It has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, including supposed transcripts of what was said, but no audio recording has surfaced, nor an explanation of where the transcripts came from, so I would call it a rumour.

Seems to have come from a DGCA statement that they haven't released publicly.

https://www.businesstoday.in/india/s...142-2025-06-12

However, I can't find any reference of the specifics of the distress call or any evidence that they said they were suffering a lack of power.