1stspotter
2025-06-15T09:25:00
permalink Post: 11902276

Quote:

Originally Posted by guided

Can we focus on theories explaining the facts? Specifically:

Aircraft used almost the whole runway (3500m)
Flaps found on the ground in setting 5
RAT deployed
Mayday that they lost power

this rules out flap up instead of gear up , selecting wrong autopilot setting, gear up causing electrical faults (as problems started earlier - using up all runway). Something must have happened on the runway (after v1?) that led to loss of electrics (and dual engine failure, maybe later?)

Define facts! Reported by an eyewitness, reported by Indian media? The ' mayday that they lost power.' is not a fact but invented by a journalist. The " aircraft used the whole runway" is not officially reported by the investigators but noted by an Indian newspaper. In the same article of today this newspaper wrote about the fake mayday call.

12 users liked this post.

The Brigadier
2025-06-15T09:48:00
permalink Post: 11902302

I see Times of India is reporting the last call to ATC was "Thrust not achieved… falling… Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!" Ahmedabad Air India crash: Long runway roll hints at thrust failure, black box key to probe; officials reveal final moments in cockpit | Ahmedabad News - Times of India

Given the evidence now in the public domain of RAT auto-deployment and simultaneous roll back, with no bird strikes, the most plausible primary trigger is a simultaneous, fuel-related thrust failure on both GEnx-1B engines. Simultaneous FADEC failure seems less likely, at least without tampering.

1 user liked this post.

CurlyB
2025-06-15T10:07:00
permalink Post: 11902314

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brigadier

I see Times of India is reporting the last call to ATC was "Thrust not achieved\x85 falling\x85 Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!" Ahmedabad Air India crash: Long runway roll hints at thrust failure, black box key to probe; officials reveal final moments in cockpit | Ahmedabad News - Times of India

Given the evidence now in the public domain of RAT auto-deployment and simultaneous roll back, with no bird strikes, the most plausible primary trigger is a simultaneous, fuel-related thrust failure on both GEnx-1B engines. Simultaneous FADEC failure seems less likely, at least without tampering.

1. The reduction of thrust is not limited to a fuel failure

2. Without any recordings, TOI is not a reliable source

2a. The long runway roll in the tagline has not been proven, as seen many times in this thread

3. The last words of a panicked captain may not be an accurate description of the situation

Your theory may be true, but it is speculation built on assumptions

EDIT: You're - your

Last edited by CurlyB; 15th Jun 2025 at 11:09 .

Msunduzi
2025-06-15T10:52:00
permalink Post: 11902351

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brigadier

It's nearly 1000 posts ago I doubted the mayday call was genuine, and that ToI report helps to reinforce my doubts, it looks like they read this thread and created their report from that, it is just more speculation, some already disproven, certainly no more facts.

1 user liked this post.

auldlassie
2025-06-15T10:59:00
permalink Post: 11902357

Quote:

Originally Posted by cncpc

The Mayday specified loss of control and engine failure.

This has been reported but not naming any verified or even specified source. I have also recently read in this thread at least 2 different versions, the most recent one before yours, upthread, being even more specific than the one that went around at first. Despite what is being quoted by yourself and others, with no verified source, the Indian Aviation minister reported at the most recent press conference that the mayday message was as follows :- "mayday, mayday". ATC replied asking for further info, but got no reply. Despite a lot of searching online, that is ALL that is currently verified, so far, re the mayday call.

helispotter
2025-06-15T11:31:00
permalink Post: 11902381

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brigadier

Same distress call is reported in this recent "News Nine" clip and source is attributed to Ahmedabad Police but possibly also the Aviation Minister:

JG1
2025-06-15T13:30:00
permalink Post: 11902476

A little bit tangential here, thinking about this Mayday call (the exact contents of which haven't been verified, but have been variously reported as "no power", or "lost power" ) , if in front of you on the PFD, in large red letters, you have the words ENG FAIL, why would you say, "no power"? Seems a bit strange. Why not say "engine failure" or "no thrust"?

Could it be that "No power" may have meant the whole cockpit went dark? ie. A total electrical failure or huge short (survivor's bang) initiating RAT deployment and apu autostart. Doesn't explain loss of thrust explicitly but if there was a massive electrical issue, and critical data was lost (thinking air/ground switch position and other fundamentals), would dual engine shutdown be a possibility? Simultaneous FADEC failure? Exceptionally remote possibility perhaps, but by definition these accidents are exceptionally remote. If the RAT deployed we know there was definitely an electrical issue - how bad was it, though? Thinking about the possibility of an electrical failure causing an engine (and instrumentation) failure rather than the other way around. Over to the experts on this.

Last edited by JG1; 15th Jun 2025 at 14:20 .

za9ra22
2025-06-15T13:41:00
permalink Post: 11902479

Per the Mayday call, the only direct quote I can find relating to it is in a Guardian report on June 14, where Samir Kumar Sinha, a secretary for India\x92s aviation ministry, is quoted as saying that the call was "Mayday, mayday".

That from a briefing by India\x92s aviation authorities on Saturday, which confirmed that Captain Sumeet Sabharwal, who was piloting the flight, sent the distress call, and that there was no response to ATC calls to the aircraft.

If that quote is accurate, there was no reference to power loss or any other factors in the Mayday call that was received.

(Edit to correct 'June 15 to June 14 when the briefing took place - apologies for the typo)

1 user liked this post.

EGPI10BR
2025-06-15T14:27:00
permalink Post: 11902507

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG1

BAW38 didn\x92t give an engine failure notification either. Neither engine produced the required power when demanded.

Misty.

1 user liked this post.

MostlyHarmless
2025-06-15T15:21:00
permalink Post: 11902547

Seen multiple versions of the content of the "Mayday" call now and all subtly different. Anyone seen any mention of whether it was in English or, under high pressure, the poor guy had fallen back to Hindi or whatever his native language was? Semantics important here (is "Power" electrical power, for example).

1 user liked this post.

F3LD
2025-06-15T15:27:00
permalink Post: 11902555

I have read somewhere that the Captain was the pilot flying.
At the same time he was also the one calling mayday. Could this be an indication for the power loss and that only the captain side radios been powered by the emergency electricity system and that\x91s why he was doing the radio call instead of the pilot monitoring (FO)

DuncanDisorderly
2025-06-15T15:39:00
permalink Post: 11902566

Quote:

Originally Posted by F3LD

a lot of captains would do mayday regardless of who\x92s flying, so doesn\x92t really help much

VickersVicount
2025-06-15T16:27:00
permalink Post: 11902610

why bother with a mayday then?

Veraendert
2025-06-15T18:13:00
permalink Post: 11902680

Not a pilot so nothing to add to what caused the crash but a firefighter. Since some here seem to believe that a mayday call would have been useless in the given situation: If you think you\xb4re going to crash, please do a mayday call if possible (not wanting to take part in the discussion whether or not such a call took place). It saves precious time to figure out what happened, where, how to get there and with which equipment. Not every engine can reach every destination. plus we need to know whether we need to put on breathing protec tion, if we need a ladder and how many ambulances should join us. Just moving everything we and nearby FDs have somewhere will simply result in a huge trafic jam. Knowing that that loud sound in the distance is probably from an impact into some building gives us a head start. This probably wouldn\xb4t have helped or didn\xb4t help here but generally there\xb4s nothing more frustrating for us than being unable to save lives because we\xb4re too late, knowing that not being on time was preventable.

18 users liked this post.

Icarus2001
2025-06-16T00:29:00
permalink Post: 11903005

Quote:

AFAIK the 787 DFDRs have an internal battery but if the power is off to the rest of the aeroplane, what data, if any, is going to make its way to the units?

You answered your own question. The units would have had power. One pilot made a radio call so electrical power was available at the very least at emergency level.

It has been established that the B787 utilises a EAFR, a combined CVR and DFDR.

1 user liked this post.

JG1
2025-06-16T05:45:00
permalink Post: 11903112

If there was water in the E&E bay, the pitch angle change at rotation would cause said water to move (backwards, upwards, slop, splash) and that is exactly when then problems on this flight started, and apparently the point where the surviving passenger heard a bang (elect short?) and the cabin lights flickered (change of elec source).
Captain's mayday says "no power", he means no electric power, engines have rolled back due some internal system failure for sure, because no external factors have caused them to fail. And all internal systems are.... Electric

2 users liked this post.

bbofh
2025-06-13T05:11:00
permalink Post: 11903709

Quote:

Originally Posted by Msunduzi

Where are the details of the mayday call? Maybe I have just missed it.

I only saw the words quoted in one post, and I'm not sure that post looked factual.

Quite surprised there have been no recordings posted anywhere (even allowing for different lifestyles and hobbies)

Content of AI 787 pilot's distress call:
https://tinyurl.com/2ud2cdyn

https://tinyurl.com/yj58apka

Cannot relocate the actual recording - but it seemed to be a clear and unrushed statement per the above content cited at the two links

1 user liked this post.

ScepticalOptomist
2025-06-13T05:13:00
permalink Post: 11903711

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suggested

It looks to me like it lost all thrust at some point in the rotation.

This seems the most likely. Loss of thrust in both engines.

Mayday call included \x93no thrust, losing power\x94.

Not a great day out for a professional pilot. RIP.

2 users liked this post.

Europa01
2025-06-13T09:50:00
permalink Post: 11903690

Mayday Message

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tech Guy

True. But possibly the pilot realised the gravity of their situation and decided that one last message of "what's happening" may help any following investigation.

Assuming the reported Mayday message is correct then a final message indicating a hopeless situation has to be a possibility.

Possibly the Captain did correctly perceive the information on the status of the aircraft

Possibly he did correctly comprehend the situation.

Possibly he did project the situation into the future

(Endsley &Jones)

Icarus2001
2025-06-16T00:29:00
permalink Post: 11903729

Quote:

AFAIK the 787 DFDRs have an internal battery but if the power is off to the rest of the aeroplane, what data, if any, is going to make its way to the units?

1stspotter 2025-06-15T09:25:00 permalink Post: 11902276	Quote: Originally Posted by guided Can we focus on theories explaining the facts? Specifically: Aircraft used almost the whole runway (3500m) Flaps found on the ground in setting 5 RAT deployed Mayday that they lost power this rules out flap up instead of gear up , selecting wrong autopilot setting, gear up causing electrical faults (as problems started earlier - using up all runway). Something must have happened on the runway (after v1?) that led to loss of electrics (and dual engine failure, maybe later?) Define facts! Reported by an eyewitness, reported by Indian media? The ' mayday that they lost power.' is not a fact but invented by a journalist. The " aircraft used the whole runway" is not officially reported by the investigators but noted by an Indian newspaper. In the same article of today this newspaper wrote about the fake mayday call. 12 users liked this post.
The Brigadier 2025-06-15T09:48:00 permalink Post: 11902302	I see Times of India is reporting the last call to ATC was "Thrust not achieved… falling… Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!" Ahmedabad Air India crash: Long runway roll hints at thrust failure, black box key to probe; officials reveal final moments in cockpit \| Ahmedabad News - Times of India Given the evidence now in the public domain of RAT auto-deployment and simultaneous roll back, with no bird strikes, the most plausible primary trigger is a simultaneous, fuel-related thrust failure on both GEnx-1B engines. Simultaneous FADEC failure seems less likely, at least without tampering. 1 user liked this post.
CurlyB 2025-06-15T10:07:00 permalink Post: 11902314	Quote: Originally Posted by The Brigadier I see Times of India is reporting the last call to ATC was "Thrust not achieved\x85 falling\x85 Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!" Ahmedabad Air India crash: Long runway roll hints at thrust failure, black box key to probe; officials reveal final moments in cockpit \| Ahmedabad News - Times of India Given the evidence now in the public domain of RAT auto-deployment and simultaneous roll back, with no bird strikes, the most plausible primary trigger is a simultaneous, fuel-related thrust failure on both GEnx-1B engines. Simultaneous FADEC failure seems less likely, at least without tampering. 1. The reduction of thrust is not limited to a fuel failure 2. Without any recordings, TOI is not a reliable source 2a. The long runway roll in the tagline has not been proven, as seen many times in this thread 3. The last words of a panicked captain may not be an accurate description of the situation Your theory may be true, but it is speculation built on assumptions EDIT: You're - your Last edited by CurlyB; 15th Jun 2025 at 11:09 .
Msunduzi 2025-06-15T10:52:00 permalink Post: 11902351	Quote: Originally Posted by The Brigadier I see Times of India is reporting the last call to ATC was "Thrust not achieved\x85 falling\x85 Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!" Ahmedabad Air India crash: Long runway roll hints at thrust failure, black box key to probe; officials reveal final moments in cockpit \| Ahmedabad News - Times of India Given the evidence now in the public domain of RAT auto-deployment and simultaneous roll back, with no bird strikes, the most plausible primary trigger is a simultaneous, fuel-related thrust failure on both GEnx-1B engines. Simultaneous FADEC failure seems less likely, at least without tampering. It's nearly 1000 posts ago I doubted the mayday call was genuine, and that ToI report helps to reinforce my doubts, it looks like they read this thread and created their report from that, it is just more speculation, some already disproven, certainly no more facts. 1 user liked this post.
auldlassie 2025-06-15T10:59:00 permalink Post: 11902357	Quote: Originally Posted by cncpc The Mayday specified loss of control and engine failure. This has been reported but not naming any verified or even specified source. I have also recently read in this thread at least 2 different versions, the most recent one before yours, upthread, being even more specific than the one that went around at first. Despite what is being quoted by yourself and others, with no verified source, the Indian Aviation minister reported at the most recent press conference that the mayday message was as follows :- "mayday, mayday". ATC replied asking for further info, but got no reply. Despite a lot of searching online, that is ALL that is currently verified, so far, re the mayday call.
helispotter 2025-06-15T11:31:00 permalink Post: 11902381	Quote: Originally Posted by The Brigadier I see Times of India is reporting the last call to ATC was "Thrust not achieved\x85 falling\x85 Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!" Ahmedabad Air India crash: Long runway roll hints at thrust failure, black box key to probe; officials reveal final moments in cockpit \| Ahmedabad News - Times of India ... Same distress call is reported in this recent "News Nine" clip and source is attributed to Ahmedabad Police but possibly also the Aviation Minister: You Tube
JG1 2025-06-15T13:30:00 permalink Post: 11902476	A little bit tangential here, thinking about this Mayday call (the exact contents of which haven't been verified, but have been variously reported as "no power", or "lost power" ) , if in front of you on the PFD, in large red letters, you have the words ENG FAIL, why would you say, "no power"? Seems a bit strange. Why not say "engine failure" or "no thrust"? Could it be that "No power" may have meant the whole cockpit went dark? ie. A total electrical failure or huge short (survivor's bang) initiating RAT deployment and apu autostart. Doesn't explain loss of thrust explicitly but if there was a massive electrical issue, and critical data was lost (thinking air/ground switch position and other fundamentals), would dual engine shutdown be a possibility? Simultaneous FADEC failure? Exceptionally remote possibility perhaps, but by definition these accidents are exceptionally remote. If the RAT deployed we know there was definitely an electrical issue - how bad was it, though? Thinking about the possibility of an electrical failure causing an engine (and instrumentation) failure rather than the other way around. Over to the experts on this. Last edited by JG1; 15th Jun 2025 at 14:20 .
za9ra22 2025-06-15T13:41:00 permalink Post: 11902479	Per the Mayday call, the only direct quote I can find relating to it is in a Guardian report on June 14, where Samir Kumar Sinha, a secretary for India\x92s aviation ministry, is quoted as saying that the call was "Mayday, mayday". That from a briefing by India\x92s aviation authorities on Saturday, which confirmed that Captain Sumeet Sabharwal, who was piloting the flight, sent the distress call, and that there was no response to ATC calls to the aircraft. If that quote is accurate, there was no reference to power loss or any other factors in the Mayday call that was received. (Edit to correct 'June 15 to June 14 when the briefing took place - apologies for the typo) 1 user liked this post.
EGPI10BR 2025-06-15T14:27:00 permalink Post: 11902507	Quote: Originally Posted by JG1 A little bit tangential here, thinking about this Mayday call (the exact contents of which haven't been verified, but have been variously reported as "no power", or "lost power" ) , if in front of you on the PFD, in large red letters, you have the words ENG FAIL, why would you say, "no power"? Seems a bit strange. Why not say "engine failure" or "no thrust"? Could it be that "No power" may have meant the whole cockpit went dark? ie. A total electrical failure or huge short (survivor's bang) initiating RAT deployment and apu autostart. Doesn't explain loss of thrust explicitly but if there was a massive electrical issue, and critical data was lost (thinking air/ground switch position and other fundamentals), would dual engine shutdown be a possibility? Simultaneous FADEC failure? Exceptionally remote possibility perhaps, but by definition these accidents are exceptionally remote. If the RAT deployed we know there was definitely an electrical issue - how bad was it, though? Thinking about the possibility of an electrical failure causing an engine (and instrumentation) failure rather than the other way around. Over to the experts on this. BAW38 didn\x92t give an engine failure notification either. Neither engine produced the required power when demanded. Misty. 1 user liked this post.
MostlyHarmless 2025-06-15T15:21:00 permalink Post: 11902547	Seen multiple versions of the content of the "Mayday" call now and all subtly different. Anyone seen any mention of whether it was in English or, under high pressure, the poor guy had fallen back to Hindi or whatever his native language was? Semantics important here (is "Power" electrical power, for example). 1 user liked this post.
F3LD 2025-06-15T15:27:00 permalink Post: 11902555	I have read somewhere that the Captain was the pilot flying. At the same time he was also the one calling mayday. Could this be an indication for the power loss and that only the captain side radios been powered by the emergency electricity system and that\x91s why he was doing the radio call instead of the pilot monitoring (FO)
DuncanDisorderly 2025-06-15T15:39:00 permalink Post: 11902566	Quote: Originally Posted by F3LD I have read somewhere that the Captain was the pilot flying. At the same time he was also the one calling mayday. Could this be an indication for the power loss and that only the captain side radios been powered by the emergency electricity system and that\x91s why he was doing the radio call instead of the pilot monitoring (FO) a lot of captains would do mayday regardless of who\x92s flying, so doesn\x92t really help much
VickersVicount 2025-06-15T16:27:00 permalink Post: 11902610	why bother with a mayday then?
Veraendert 2025-06-15T18:13:00 permalink Post: 11902680	Not a pilot so nothing to add to what caused the crash but a firefighter. Since some here seem to believe that a mayday call would have been useless in the given situation: If you think you\xb4re going to crash, please do a mayday call if possible (not wanting to take part in the discussion whether or not such a call took place). It saves precious time to figure out what happened, where, how to get there and with which equipment. Not every engine can reach every destination. plus we need to know whether we need to put on breathing protec tion, if we need a ladder and how many ambulances should join us. Just moving everything we and nearby FDs have somewhere will simply result in a huge trafic jam. Knowing that that loud sound in the distance is probably from an impact into some building gives us a head start. This probably wouldn\xb4t have helped or didn\xb4t help here but generally there\xb4s nothing more frustrating for us than being unable to save lives because we\xb4re too late, knowing that not being on time was preventable. 18 users liked this post.
Icarus2001 2025-06-16T00:29:00 permalink Post: 11903005	Quote: AFAIK the 787 DFDRs have an internal battery but if the power is off to the rest of the aeroplane, what data, if any, is going to make its way to the units? You answered your own question. The units would have had power. One pilot made a radio call so electrical power was available at the very least at emergency level. It has been established that the B787 utilises a EAFR, a combined CVR and DFDR. 1 user liked this post.
JG1 2025-06-16T05:45:00 permalink Post: 11903112	If there was water in the E&E bay, the pitch angle change at rotation would cause said water to move (backwards, upwards, slop, splash) and that is exactly when then problems on this flight started, and apparently the point where the surviving passenger heard a bang (elect short?) and the cabin lights flickered (change of elec source). Captain's mayday says "no power", he means no electric power, engines have rolled back due some internal system failure for sure, because no external factors have caused them to fail. And all internal systems are.... Electric 2 users liked this post.
bbofh 2025-06-13T05:11:00 permalink Post: 11903709	Quote: Originally Posted by Msunduzi Where are the details of the mayday call? Maybe I have just missed it. I only saw the words quoted in one post, and I'm not sure that post looked factual. Quite surprised there have been no recordings posted anywhere (even allowing for different lifestyles and hobbies) Content of AI 787 pilot's distress call: https://tinyurl.com/2ud2cdyn https://tinyurl.com/yj58apka Cannot relocate the actual recording - but it seemed to be a clear and unrushed statement per the above content cited at the two links 1 user liked this post.
ScepticalOptomist 2025-06-13T05:13:00 permalink Post: 11903711	Quote: Originally Posted by Suggested It looks to me like it lost all thrust at some point in the rotation. This seems the most likely. Loss of thrust in both engines. Mayday call included \x93no thrust, losing power\x94. Not a great day out for a professional pilot. RIP. 2 users liked this post.
Europa01 2025-06-13T09:50:00 permalink Post: 11903690	Mayday Message Quote: Originally Posted by Tech Guy True. But possibly the pilot realised the gravity of their situation and decided that one last message of "what's happening" may help any following investigation. Assuming the reported Mayday message is correct then a final message indicating a hopeless situation has to be a possibility. Possibly the Captain did correctly perceive the information on the status of the aircraft Possibly he did correctly comprehend the situation. Possibly he did project the situation into the future (Endsley &Jones)
Icarus2001 2025-06-16T00:29:00 permalink Post: 11903729	Quote: AFAIK the 787 DFDRs have an internal battery but if the power is off to the rest of the aeroplane, what data, if any, is going to make its way to the units? You answered your own question. The units would have had power. One pilot made a radio call so electrical power was available at the very least at emergency level. It has been established that the B787 utilises a EAFR, a combined CVR and DFDR.

Posts about: "Mayday" [Posts: 144 Pages: 8]