Posts about: "RAT (All)" [Posts: 683 Pages: 35]

I'm reading a lot of the comments, speculation is something we all like, but some things just do not add up, even with a RAT deployed

if they had dual engine failure around 50 feet where you raise the gear, how can they still find the energy to climb, since they would be at VR/V2 speed (not V2+20 at that altitude, what VNAV would command after take off, especially with a take off weight of around 205/210 tons, the 787 wings are amazing but not miracles

if they had a normal departure, why did they not raise the gear, they had a positive rate since they were climbing and the speed according to ADS-B was a constant. if they were single engine ! this would have saved them with this weight and weather, one of the first things you learn when EFATO with a 787, raise the gear, your climb performance increases dramatically

Intersection take off can be ruled out:
if they did an intersection departure with they're genex 64-70K engines, they would have had a take off limited weight of around 172 tons, I estimate that they were close to 205/210 tons, (max zfw of around 161 tons and around 45/50 tons of fuel) even full length would have been a stress for the engines, with the prevailing weather conditions, they would have never made it, full length is already difficult.


When we see the video, the airplane is still climbing / flying straight and level (not losing altitude), yet we hear what we think might be the RAT, I can't imagine that they had the kinetic energy to do this with no engines. if they had dual engine failure, they would have been a brick, Hot and High, no thrust, flaps 5, zero chance.

flickering of lights etc. seen by the survivor and the loud bang heard, I would not trust pax observations, because of the things they had to go through, also and I've said this before, if it was a loud bang, where is the smoke and fire in the engines, or in the video, its not audible

lets see what the report will say, but it it could be a lot to swallow for some

Retired aircraft engineer here, mostly military experience. Way back in this thread a contributor stated that he/she had heard the noise the RAT makes many times because Boeing regularly tested it in flight on production aircraft near to where they lived. Can someone tell us how the RAT is tested in flight? Is there a switch to manually deploy the RAT and. if so, could the RAT have been deployed by the crew in this way?

After hours of reading I conclude that so far nobody has the slightest clue about what happened.
1: Flaps were down
2: The RAT story is based on a single unsharp video frame. Earlier frames were much sharper but the RAT could not be seen (although there was a sound).
3. Lack of evidence

I could be wrong, in that case please link QUALITY evidence so that we can learn something new.
This way thousands of people are wasting countless hours.

Firstly, I've read through this whole thread - thank you Admin & Mods for your considerable efforts to clean things up.

Secondly, as a (now ex) glider pilot who remains extremely interested in aviation in most of its forms, this discussion has been an education and thought-provoking, as it so frequently is whenever I lurk here (usually without logging in). Thank you all for sharing your knowledge, expertise and thoughts.

To my mind the above post (especially the sentence I highlighted) is amongst the best (and most succinct) summary of what the pilots likely faced, with little to no time to resolve the situation. I cannot imagine those last few seconds and my heart goes out to them, the passengers and the many loved ones left behind. If there is any good that can come of this, it is that the cause is found quickly, with no bias, and steps are taken to ensure the same holes in the cheese cannot happen again.

How long does it take for an engine to fail in terms of thrust output - what does thrust over time look like for various failure scenarios - e.g., no electrically powered fuel pumps, or contaminated fuel, or thrust set to idle or other issues?

The original mobile video (not the copy from someones phone screen) clearly sounds like a RAT but what does the engine itself sound like - is it idle or reduced in some way?

What is the minimum amount of thrust that would need to be lost to stop climbing and sink back down - it took 30 seconds from leaving the ground to impact from the CCTV and the first 15 was climbing.

I would look carefully at the fact that the PCU still has the technical ability to tell all AC generator control units to turn off via software, as proven in the documented and fixed 248-day software issue.

Visual evidence the rat was deployed, audio evidence the rat was deployed, evidence the APU inlet door was open, evidence the gear retraction was interrupted, evidence there was very little engine noise after departure, very obvious evidence that the aeroplane didn’t have enough thrust to stop it descending into the ground. All of this strongly suggests that both engines were to all intents and purposes, and for want of a better word, ‘failed’ now that could be intentional, accidental or because of some sort of technical malfunction or external factor. Nothing conclusive and no answers as to how or why, but not quite as wildly stabbing in the dark as your post would infer.

2008, a Spanair MD-82 crashed in a similar way after liftoff in Madrid. Final report Spanair .Main cause: The pilots did not configure the airplane according to checklist and took of with zero flaps and slats. Contributing: previous maintance was disabling RAT heating (MEL if not flying into icing conditions) which somehow inhibited electrically the takeoff configuration warning. I am not implying in the least that such a thing happended to this Air India crash. I just mention it as a proof that some *minor* quirks can contribute to an accident (i.e. disturb FADEC, TCMA logic, you name it) . Modern aircraft software logic is even more complex than the wired logic of an MD-82. But still: all "IF so and so THEN so and so " code can produce weird results if the conditions are corrupted or delayed by data communication lags. And according to a witness, there were some electrical quirks on the previous flight and possibly some maintenance thereafter. Again not implying any wrongdoing.

We agree that there was a lack of thrust. Possibly caused by a dual engine failure. But the sharpest frames in the video do NOT show the RAT and this is counter evidence to the RAT theory. If there were substantial technical failures who knows what sounds could be generated. I find the evidence weak at best. And we immediately get into a chicken-egg problem: did some power issue of unknown nature cause an engine failure or did a dual engine failure occur, resulting in a power loss? Both are extremely unlikely and need to be backed by quality evidence. The video is not it, in my opinion. I don't know the APU intake mechanism and whether it could open after the impact.

I realise the discussion has largely moved on, but for completeness I have analysed, filtered and compared the audio from several 787 videos\x97both take-off and landing (the latter with and without RAT deployment; take-off footage with the RAT out is rare).

Using the same style of frequency plots employed in the RAT analysis\x97and drawing on speed of different engine components data supplied by other contributors\x97it is straightforward to identify the engines\x92 high-power acoustic signatures objectively, despite variations among clips and the presence of Doppler shift.

What is clear is that the engine noise in the recording bears no resemblance to a typical 787 take-off profile. Whether the engines were merely at very low thrust/idle or fully windmilling I cannot say with certainty, but they were certainly nowhere near take-off power.

Make of that what you will.

If there was a loss of power, it happened after V1. Normally, at V1, all hands should be removed from the thrust levers until, type dependent, selection of climb thrust, which normally takes place not below 1000\xb4 above aerodrome level. An altitude the flight never managed to achieve. If some flight crew members seat was to slide back unintentionally, there are handles in the flight deck that one will instinctively reach for, no need to grab the thrust levers of all things.

Even if the levers may have been inadvertently pulled to idle, it would have taken one single energic adjustment to slam them to maximum thrust position (whatever it is called on the 787), for which there was some time during the brief flight. And two idling engines should not result in anything triggering the RAT release or APU auto start.

Of course, stranger things have happened, but I\xb4d consider this scenario not plausible.

I will wager that this is absolute nonsense. The effect of pulling the power levers back to idle at rotate would be readily countered by pushing them back up again. The engines are still delivering thrust, it is a function of N1, not the lever. The lever commands where the thrust level will end up, the N1 gives the thrust output. The acceleration/thrust characteristics of these engines is not like a J52 or JT3D etc.

The proposition that is floated is that the pilot does not pull back on the control column, which he is holding onto with both hands as his seat slides backwards like a caricature of a bad Cessna 180 seat rail, that is plainly obvious from the pitch attitude of the aircraft, yet grabs lustily a double handful of thrust levers and holds onto those until meeting Ganesh in the next life?

Greek papers appear to be as rigorous and incisive in their cognition as the Daily Telegraph. Golly.

Seats: electric.
RAT deployment... presumably the hapless pilot doesn't grab the control column, or the thrust levers, just grabs both fuel control switches instead????

Do any reporters bother to read what they write?

The investigators will certainly soon know, but how sure are you that they'll share that in public?

Nope, you may not have read the whole thread - the full set of conditions which can trigger the RAT have been posted multiple times before your reply

I'd phrase it differently: the frequency (and harmonics) of the noise are consistent with it being a RAT. If you then assume that it was a RAT and infer distance and speed curves from the Doppler variation, you get plausible values for an aircraft. But the two things are somewhat linked so you can't really treat the second thing as confirmation of the first. (FWIW, I'm personally quite satisfied that it was indeed a RAT on the audio.)

I think it\x92s made up nonsense, but it is at least worth noting that pulling back to idle and pushing back with the wheels still on the ground is a potential TCMA trigger.

I saw the comment stating the above on AHerald (giving a detailed timeline of events). But why would the captain keep his hand on thrust levers at Vr? Also, can electrically adjustable seats suddenly just slide backwards? Additionally, this doesn't account for the RAT deployment. If they had truly firewalled the throttles afterward, we would expect to see a pitch-up moment\x97which isn\x92t evident in the video (at least to me). Perhaps a nose-down trim could have counteracted it, but that seems like a bit of a stretch.

I've been sitting on my hands for days now...but please stop linking RAT deployment evidence with some blurry cluster of pixelation, which proves nothing.
This Pprune-forensic audio analysis (and subsequent posts) by Kraftstoffvondesibel, although completely ignored by many it seems, is the only clear proof there was a deployed RAT sound recorded in the young boy's video clip. You may disprove the analysis as much as you like, but referring to blurry video regarding possible RAT deployment or not, is indeed " thousands of people are wasting countless hours "

I'm rather under the impression that many recent discussions are going backwards or h amsterwheeling.
But thank you for your valuable audio analysis

If you’ve read the whole thread, you’ll see that most of us who are acknowledging rat evidence are also citing this compelling audio evidence too.

To simplify the chicken/egg:

Tdracer earlier confirmed that an airplane electrical power loss would allow engines to keep running , because 1) engines are fully-capable of suction feed operation in takeoff envelope (if boost pumps lost), and 2) the EECs are powered by their own PMAs when running and to substantially below idle (I recall roughly 10% N2). Airplane powers the EEC for ground starts, prior to PMA coming online, and as backup to the PMA after that.

Related:

Engine igniters are powered by the aircraft. So theoretical full loss of aircraft power would disable Autorelight upon a flameout. Ignitors typically don't make the cut for most-essential battery-only loads because it would also take an engine flameout, and the airplane past V1 in ground roll can fly fine on one engine that can achieve takeoff thrust.

Autorelight is relevant - if there was a single-engine failure post V1, autorelight will attempt to relight the engine, so there is no need for a pilot to try to cycle the fuel switch to reset the EEC (potentially grabbing the wrong one), or to otherwise intervene. In such a circumstance, they need to trust their training. I've heard accounts that the most likely pilot instinct in such a situation would be to push the throttle(s) forward.

Finally - there was talk earlier about accidentally cutting the fuel switches - and it was duly noted that they have to be pulled out over the detent, so very unlikely. The same cutoff effect could be achieved with the engine fire handle(s), right behind the fuel switches on the pedestal - though they are an upward pull, so also not subject to inadvertent or accidental engagement.

if you had read the whole thread, you would have seen ths 2 independent audio analysis of the HQ video soundtrack, comparing with 2 other segments. It has been established that with 99% certainly that the RAT was deployed. Not to mention the ear witness who has heard 500\xd7 RATs close to Boeing field

Firstly. I find all the speculation about hearing the RAT suspect. Not that I doubt observers heard something sounding like a RAT, but that I question the fidelity of the low bit rate and bit depth of the audio to reproduce the difference between the sound of a deployed or non-deployed RAT. The audio sounds quite distorted and I have zero confidence that anyone could accurately tell. Secondly, is the speculation about best glide performance. Any private pilot knows that best glide does not exist until the pilot pitches the nose down and establishes it. As far as I can see, there is no time nor visible indication that the nose pitched down. What I see is the aircraft mushing down to the ground with the nose high and just short of a stall.