Posts about: "RAT (All)" [Posts: 683 Pages: 35]

Not an avionics specialist, but electronics / software engineer here, with extensive experience in hardware fault tracking, protocol monitoring and software debugging in embedded systems : mods, feel free to delete this post if I am completely out of track (and thank you for the huge amount of work you've done trying to keep this discussion clean).

After I have read the whole thread, I think most of the community agrees about a lack of engine thrust being the cause of the crash. Searching in that direction, I'm trying to "think out of the box", discarding the usual suspects (birds ingestion, TCMA, human mistake...), and to find a plausible single point of failure among the various subsystems involved. I was thinking of reversing the causality of the event, i.e. exploring a case where the engines would have behaved unexpectedly because of a major electrical failure, instead of the already explored case where both powerplants went AWOL first.

Therefore, I have a couple questions for tdracer / fdr / other informed contributors (BTW, fantastic contribution guys, please keep the good info coming):

1. From the scarce info available, is it reasonable to conclude that the engines were totally shut down? Could they have just been set to idle or reduced thrust instead?

2. In the second case, if (and that's a big IF) a major electrical failure happened first (which could have triggered RAT deployment), and considering this plane is a FBW aircraft, could there exist a case where the FADECs would command idle thrust -- or significant thrust reduction -- because they receive invalid input data from the throttle controls? Kind of a garbage in-garbage out case?

The associated scenario would be: major electrical fault (with subsequent RAT deployment) -> major protocol disturbance on ARINC/AFDX buses -> FADECs detect invalid data from the controls -> FADECS enter some kinf of safe mode and command reduced or idle thrust.

Does it make sense or is it pure fantasy?

No. The throttle position sensors (dual per engine) are part of the FADEC. The throttle position data is not transmitted through the ARINC busses of the aircraft.

But would any of that trigger the RAT and/or cause the emergency lights to come on? (I know, there is only anecdotal evidence from the sole survivor of this).

That came from a 787 pilot friend. Under the assumption that the RAT deployment is still an assumption.

Should we talk about the RAT being an electrical generator? No? Okay then, carry on.

Based on approximate distances and heights, the time line, the aircraft configuration, surface wind, the published L/D (gear up reduced to a guess for gear down and RAT out), and probable off-optimum speed for maximum L/D in that configuration, it's my opinion (aeronautical engineer, unused ATP rating, and glider pilot, national contests) that we can't rule out both engines being at idle or very low thrust at or shortly after rotation, rather than shut down.

Do we know yet what stop
altitude was set on the FGP?

Suppose they had left it at zero prior to final departure briefing?

Not 787 rated but is it possible that they selected FLCH after take off and the aircraft targeted the zero altitude selection?

Doesn\x92t explain the RAT deployment but I have a feeling there maybe more than one hole in this Swiss cheese\x85

Did you not read my full post?

The post from which you quoted part did talk about both hydraulic and electrical power from the RAT. I'm not sure what point you're making.

It\x92s happened more than once. I wouldn\x92t foreclose that outcome until we have facts.

The 787 RAT has both a generator and a hydraulic pump.

There’s been some debate over what electrical and hydraulic systems are powered. According to one unauthorized and Not For Flight -labeled FCOM copy that seems quite authentic:
The list of inoperative systems include most/all secondary fligh controls powered by the center hydraulic system. There we can conclude that centre hydraulic system electric pumps are not available when operating on APU RAT (or battery) only electrical mode.

Do you stand by your previous assertion :-

Maybe you should have kept sitting on your hands, theory a) in particular is about as risable as the last one you posted. Do you still think engine failure takes 30 seconds for the plane to react?! Thanks to rkenyon for alerting us not to take your post seriously. You still don't believe the RAT was out despite the in depth audio analysis done by an expert in the field. You still think its a motorbike?!

Given they took off at a perfectly normal point, at a perfectly normal speed, I don't see how you come to incorrect derate and low v speeds, or how on earth that would lead to a normal takeoff followed by sinking?

How does this explain the unusual forward tilt of the gear trucks as seen in the roof top video?

I appreciate some don\x92t want to speculate on the RAT deployment or APU auto start until further evidence, but the gear truck tilt is a massive clue to a non-normal hydraulic issue, most likely caused by electrical power problems since C hydraulics is only electric pump powered.

Investigators will try to establish a single source or truth. For them, that\x92s an ideal outcome. But due to the nature of investigations, the aim gets derailed as established facts versus possible/potential scenarios based on missing links of the chain are pieced together. But for sure, commercial considerations and liability wont enter into a proper investigation. The task of the investigators is to determine the how and why.

Theres a saying, and it may even have been the title of a book\x85 Lift is a gift but Thrust is a must. In this case, certainly one or both were absent.

For 2 (maybe 3 if it was a training flight) professional people, the day started with waking up, getting ready, saying goodbye to loved ones, who they believed they would see again soon in 2-3 days. Sadly, that won\x92t happen, and it\x92s the job of the investigators to find out why and liability isn\x92t a hindrance to them.

They will look at every piece of evidence and recreate the events. But it will take time.

information worthy of note is:

A) The gear was still down.
B) It would appear (due to some work by amazing members) that the RAT was indeed deployed.

Other observances:

1. Bits flying off the aircraft. (From experience of operating in this area, they like to fly kites, and waste thermals and floats around, notably plastic bags) I have no idea if that la what we see or not.

2. Generally in India, they love using their horns. So whilst you can compare the frequencies of a potential RAT to a motorbike, appreciate there would be a million horns going off too.

3. Some posters have spoken of the \x93startle effect\x94 like they know what they are talking about. The most startling effect of a professional flight deck during an emergency is how calm it is. There aren\x92t hands flying around everywhere. In fact:

V1 > Rotate > Positive Rate > Gear Up > Confirm FD/AP Modes is adjusted to:
V1 > Rotate > Positive Rate > Gear Up > Silence the bell (Or your SOP Variation) FD/AP modes and the PF flies the aircraft.

the next step is to identify the problem, agree on it and then perform the actions. That won\x92t happen below 400\x92.

4. There\x92s no company in the world where Pilots are being fed and watered between V1 and 1000\x92 so spilling drinks on run switches isn\x92t a thing on this departure.

5. Temperature inversion. Yes it\x92s possible and it degrades performance. However, if it\x92s present, it\x92s usually announced on the ATIS. IF other aircraft have reported it.

6. Fuel contamination. Without knowing the systems, yes it\x92s potentially possible, but it would appear no other aircraft have reported being affected by it.

I think, this accident is especially interesting to Professional Aviators and Engineers because I think none of us would ever believe that it could happen. The aircraft is highly automated, the crew have been properly trained and the operation was a regular or possibly training flight.

A query I have is, do later Gen aircraft like the 777/787/747 A330/A350/A380 constantly send Airframe/Engine data home to ops/engineering/oem\x92s. Is it likely the data is out there?

Anyway, I just wanted to post this to reassure the travelling public that Pilots don\x92t try to shut down engines before they raise the gear.

That is one conclusion (which I now suggest is unlikely), because you are assuming:

1. The hydraulic failure happened exactly when the truck had tilted forward but the split-second before the gear doors could open. That exact timing seems too coincidental.
2. The crew selected Gear Up. We have no proof of this. I speculate the crew never got as far as "Positive Rate...Gear Up" because they were already engrossed in flying the aircraft and processing their thrust problem. If an electrical problem had developed (as evidenced by the RAT deployment) the flight instrumentation would have been flickering and a flurry of silent master caution alerts would be very distracting.

I suggest it's more likely that the truck remained in a forward tilt from the takeoff run because the hydraulic failure happened prior to rotation, therefore keeping it in this unusual position. This answer does not rely on the gear lever position either. It also insinuates that their hydraulic problems occurred probably between V1 and VR. See my earlier post .

Most? The Airbus I'm familiar with is 100' AGL or 5s after liftoff and I think this is common to all Airbus FBW. The B787 & B777 appear to be 200' AGL but I'm taking this from online FCOM extracts. The B737 does appear to be 400'. Company limitations may be higher.

As mentioned elsewhere both EK and Air NZ have had messy low level mis-set altitude capture incidents with the B777, but in isolation, obviously, this wouldn't cause RAT extension.

About airport cameras. Someone pointed out on the other thread that airports have more coverage than they would necessarily advertise. Presumably available to investigators but not to the public or press.

Even lower for the Tristar!

Yes yes back into my box.

yeah the low MCP alt setting/alt capture doesn\x92t make a whole lot of sense- the plane didn\x92t pitch forward it just failed to climb/lost lift

that\x92s not conducive with what happened nor does it explain why the gear is still down (although seemingly selected up given the boogie tilt) or the RAT deployed (if it really was)