2025-06-15T12:38:00
permalink Post: 11902430
What if the PF called stop just before V1 and closed the thrust levers but either changed his mind or was overridden by the other pilot, who rapidly pushed the thrust levers back up. Could this trigger a TCMA intervention and subsequent dual engine shutdown as it was still on the runway at this point? Hopefully not.
It also doesn\x92t explaine the ADS-B data showing acceleration after lift off.
1 user liked this post.
2025-06-16T08:51:00
permalink Post: 11903270
If TCMA cut fuel flow while still on the runway the aircraft would have been decelerating from the moment it lifted off, which is not what the ADS-B data indicates. The kinetic energy in the rotating parts of the engine wouldn't add much speed to the aircraft as the engines run down with no more energy being added via fuel.
In no particular order, here are some more thoughts on TCMA having caught up on the thread:
If you cut the fuel from two big engines at take-off power, there must be some delay before n2 decays below the threshold for generation (below idle n2), the generators disconnect and RAT deploys. GEnx have relatively long spool up/down times as the fan is so large (and would be exposed to 170+kts of ram air). Perhaps someone has a view on how long this would be, but I imagine it could easily be 10s or more between fuel cut off and RAT deployment. On AI171 the RAT appears to be already deployed at the beginning of the bystander video. That starts c. 13s before impact and around 17s after rotation. This does not prove anything except that the supposed shut down must have happened very close to rotation and could have happened just before rotation while the a/c was on the ground.
As a thought experiment, imagine if ANA985 in 2019 had decided to go around. The a/c rotates and is ~50 ft above the runway, suddenly both engines spooling down, very little runway left to land on and no reverse thrust available. I am struck by how similar this scenario is to AI171. This theory would require there to have been unexpected thrust lever movement in the moments before rotation - but plausibly one pilot moving to reject, followed by an overrule or change of heart - or even a simple human error such as the recent BA incident at LGW - could achieve this. This is perhaps more likely that any sensor fault that you would expect to only impact a single engine given the redundancy of systems.
Tdracer writes that a key requirement of TCMA is to identify an engine runaway in the event of an RTO, in order to allow the a/c to stop on the runway. This will have been tested extensively - it is a big leap to imagine a false activation could be triggered. It did happen on ANA985 but through a very unusual set of inputs including application of reverse (albeit this latter point may not be relevant if TCMA logic does not distinguish between the reverser being deployed or not).
Incidentally there is an assumption the TCMA software version in place on the ANA flight had already been patched and fixed on AI171. That probably is the case but I am not sure it is a known fact.
In summary I remain baffled by this tragic accident. I have not yet read anything that explicitly rules out TCMA activation and it remains a possibility due to the vanishingly small number of factors that could shut down two engines at apparently the exact same moment when they have fully redundant systems. Fuel contamination, for example, has typically impacted each engine a few minutes (at least) apart. I am also cautious (as others have pointed out) of a form of confirmation bias about Boeing software systems with four-letter acronyms.
In my mind the cause could equally well be something completely different to anything suggested on this thread, that will only become clear with more evidence. All of the above also incorporates a number of theories, i.e. that there was an engine shutdown - that are not conclusively known.
Thank you to the mods for an excellent job.
3 users liked this post.
2025-06-13T18:41:00
permalink Post: 11903417
OK, another hour spent going through all the posts since I was on last night...
I won't quote the relevant posts as they go back ~15 pages, but a few more comments:
TAT errors affecting N1 power set: The FADEC logic (BTW, this is pretty much common on all Boeing FADEC) will use aircraft TAT if it agrees with the dedicated engine inlet temp probe - but if they differ it will use the engine probe . The GE inlet temp probe is relatively simple and unheated, so (unlike a heated probe) a blocked or contaminated probe will still read accurately - just with greater 'lag' to actual temperature changes.
TCMA - first off, I have to admit that this does look rather like an improper TCMA activation, but that is very, very unlikely. For those who don't know, TCMA is a system to shutdown a runaway engine that's not responding to the thrust lever - basic logic is an engine at high power with the thrust lever at/near idle, and the engine not decelerating. However, TCMA is only active on the ground (unfamiliar with the 787/GEnx TCMA air/ground logic - on the 747-8 we used 5 sources of air/ground - three Radio Altimeters and two Weight on Wheels - at least one of each had to indicate ground to enable TCMA). TCMA will shutdown the engine via the N2 overspeed protection - nearly instantaneous. For this to be TCMA, it would require at least two major failures - improper air ground indication or logic, and improper TCMA activation logic (completely separate software paths in the FADEC). Like I said, very, very unlikely.
Fuel contamination/filter blockage: The fuel filters have a bypass - if the delta P across the filter becomes excessive, the filter bypasses and provides the contaminated fuel to the engine. Now this contaminated fuel could easy foul up the fuel metering unit causing a flameout, but to happen to two engines at virtually the same time would be tremendous unlikely.
Auto Thrust thrust lever retard - the TO lockup in the logic makes this very unlikely (it won't unlock below (IIRC) 400 ft., and even that requires a separate pilot action such as a mode select change or thrust lever movement). And if it did somehow happen, all the pilot needs to do is push the levers back up.
Engine parameters on the FDR: I don't know what exactly is on the 787 FDR with regards to engine parameters, but rest assured that there is plenty of engine data that gets recorded - most at one/second. Getting the FDR readout from a modern FDR is almost an embarrassment of riches. Assuming the data is intact, we'll soon have a very good idea of what the engines were doing
I won't quote the relevant posts as they go back ~15 pages, but a few more comments:
TAT errors affecting N1 power set: The FADEC logic (BTW, this is pretty much common on all Boeing FADEC) will use aircraft TAT if it agrees with the dedicated engine inlet temp probe - but if they differ it will use the engine probe . The GE inlet temp probe is relatively simple and unheated, so (unlike a heated probe) a blocked or contaminated probe will still read accurately - just with greater 'lag' to actual temperature changes.
TCMA - first off, I have to admit that this does look rather like an improper TCMA activation, but that is very, very unlikely. For those who don't know, TCMA is a system to shutdown a runaway engine that's not responding to the thrust lever - basic logic is an engine at high power with the thrust lever at/near idle, and the engine not decelerating. However, TCMA is only active on the ground (unfamiliar with the 787/GEnx TCMA air/ground logic - on the 747-8 we used 5 sources of air/ground - three Radio Altimeters and two Weight on Wheels - at least one of each had to indicate ground to enable TCMA). TCMA will shutdown the engine via the N2 overspeed protection - nearly instantaneous. For this to be TCMA, it would require at least two major failures - improper air ground indication or logic, and improper TCMA activation logic (completely separate software paths in the FADEC). Like I said, very, very unlikely.
Fuel contamination/filter blockage: The fuel filters have a bypass - if the delta P across the filter becomes excessive, the filter bypasses and provides the contaminated fuel to the engine. Now this contaminated fuel could easy foul up the fuel metering unit causing a flameout, but to happen to two engines at virtually the same time would be tremendous unlikely.
Auto Thrust thrust lever retard - the TO lockup in the logic makes this very unlikely (it won't unlock below (IIRC) 400 ft., and even that requires a separate pilot action such as a mode select change or thrust lever movement). And if it did somehow happen, all the pilot needs to do is push the levers back up.
Engine parameters on the FDR: I don't know what exactly is on the 787 FDR with regards to engine parameters, but rest assured that there is plenty of engine data that gets recorded - most at one/second. Getting the FDR readout from a modern FDR is almost an embarrassment of riches. Assuming the data is intact, we'll soon have a very good idea of what the engines were doing
3 users liked this post.
2025-06-14T20:48:00
permalink Post: 11903420
Another hour spent sifting through the stuff since last night (my sympathies to the mods
). A few more comments:
"Real time engine monitoring" is typically not 'real time' - it's recorded and sent in periodic bursts. Very unlikely anything was sent from the event aircraft on this flight.
Commanded engine cutoff - the aisle stand fuel switch sends electrical signals to the spar valve and the "High Pressure Shutoff Valve" (HPSOV) in the Fuel Metering Unit, commanding them to open/close using aircraft power. The HPSOV is solenoid controlled, and near instantaneous. The solenoid is of a 'locking' type that needs to be powered both ways (for obvious reasons, you wouldn't want a loss of electrical power to shut down the engine). The fire handle does the same thing, via different electrical paths (i.e. separate wiring).
As I've noted previously, a complete loss of aircraft electrical power would not cause the engines to flameout (or even lose meaningful thrust) during takeoff. In the takeoff altitude envelope, 'suction feed' (I think Airbus calls it 'gravity feed') is more than sufficient to supply the engine driven fuel pumps. It's only when you get up to ~20k ft. that suction feed can become an issue - and this event happened near sea level.
Not matter what's happening on the aircraft side - pushing the thrust levers to the forward stop will give you (at least) rated takeoff power since the only thing required from the aircraft is fuel and thrust lever position (and the thrust lever position resolver is powered by the FADEC).
The TCMA logic is designed and scrubbed so as to be quite robust - flight test data of the engine response to throttle slams is reviewed to insure there is adequate margin between the TCMA limits and the actual engine responses to prevent improper TCMA activation. Again, never say never, but a whole lot would have had to go wrong in the TCMA logic for it to have activated on this flight.
Now, if I assume the speculation that the RAT deployed is correct, I keep coming up with two potential scenarios that could explain what's known regarding this accident:
1) TCMA activation shutdown the engines
or
2) The fuel cutoff switches were activated.
I literally can come up with no other plausible scenarios.
In all due respect to all the pilots on this forum, I really hope it wasn't TCMA. It wouldn't be the first time a mandated 'safety system' has caused an accident (it wouldn't just be Boeing and GE - TCMA was forced by the FAA and EASA to prevent a scenario that had never caused a fatal accident) - and there would be a lot embarrassing questions for all involved. But I personally know many of the people who created, validated, and certified the GEnx-1B TCMA logic - and can't imagine what they would be going through if they missed something (coincidentally, one of them was at my birthday party last weekend and inevitably we ended up talking about what we used to do at Boeing (he's also retired)). Worse, similar TCMA logic is on the GEnx-2B (747-8) - which I was personally responsible for certifying - as well as the GE90-115B and the 737 MAX Leap engine - the consequences of that logic causing this accident would be massive.
). A few more comments:
"Real time engine monitoring" is typically not 'real time' - it's recorded and sent in periodic bursts. Very unlikely anything was sent from the event aircraft on this flight.
Commanded engine cutoff - the aisle stand fuel switch sends electrical signals to the spar valve and the "High Pressure Shutoff Valve" (HPSOV) in the Fuel Metering Unit, commanding them to open/close using aircraft power. The HPSOV is solenoid controlled, and near instantaneous. The solenoid is of a 'locking' type that needs to be powered both ways (for obvious reasons, you wouldn't want a loss of electrical power to shut down the engine). The fire handle does the same thing, via different electrical paths (i.e. separate wiring).
As I've noted previously, a complete loss of aircraft electrical power would not cause the engines to flameout (or even lose meaningful thrust) during takeoff. In the takeoff altitude envelope, 'suction feed' (I think Airbus calls it 'gravity feed') is more than sufficient to supply the engine driven fuel pumps. It's only when you get up to ~20k ft. that suction feed can become an issue - and this event happened near sea level.
Not matter what's happening on the aircraft side - pushing the thrust levers to the forward stop will give you (at least) rated takeoff power since the only thing required from the aircraft is fuel and thrust lever position (and the thrust lever position resolver is powered by the FADEC).
The TCMA logic is designed and scrubbed so as to be quite robust - flight test data of the engine response to throttle slams is reviewed to insure there is adequate margin between the TCMA limits and the actual engine responses to prevent improper TCMA activation. Again, never say never, but a whole lot would have had to go wrong in the TCMA logic for it to have activated on this flight.
Now, if I assume the speculation that the RAT deployed is correct, I keep coming up with two potential scenarios that could explain what's known regarding this accident:
1) TCMA activation shutdown the engines
or
2) The fuel cutoff switches were activated.
I literally can come up with no other plausible scenarios.
In all due respect to all the pilots on this forum, I really hope it wasn't TCMA. It wouldn't be the first time a mandated 'safety system' has caused an accident (it wouldn't just be Boeing and GE - TCMA was forced by the FAA and EASA to prevent a scenario that had never caused a fatal accident) - and there would be a lot embarrassing questions for all involved. But I personally know many of the people who created, validated, and certified the GEnx-1B TCMA logic - and can't imagine what they would be going through if they missed something (coincidentally, one of them was at my birthday party last weekend and inevitably we ended up talking about what we used to do at Boeing (he's also retired)). Worse, similar TCMA logic is on the GEnx-2B (747-8) - which I was personally responsible for certifying - as well as the GE90-115B and the 737 MAX Leap engine - the consequences of that logic causing this accident would be massive.
7 users liked this post.
2025-06-16T08:51:00
permalink Post: 11903752
If TCMA cut fuel flow while still on the runway the aircraft would have been decelerating from the moment it lifted off, which is not what the ADS-B data indicates. The kinetic energy in the rotating parts of the engine wouldn't add much speed to the aircraft as the engines run down with no more energy being added via fuel.
In no particular order, here are some more thoughts on TCMA having caught up on the thread:
If you cut the fuel from two big engines at take-off power, there must be some delay before n2 decays below the threshold for generation (below idle n2), the generators disconnect and RAT deploys. GEnx have relatively long spool up/down times as the fan is so large (and would be exposed to 170+kts of ram air). Perhaps someone has a view on how long this would be, but I imagine it could easily be 10s or more between fuel cut off and RAT deployment. On AI171 the RAT appears to be already deployed at the beginning of the bystander video. That starts c. 13s before impact and around 17s after rotation. This does not prove anything except that the supposed shut down must have happened very close to rotation and could have happened just before rotation while the a/c was on the ground.
As a thought experiment, imagine if ANA985 in 2019 had decided to go around. The a/c rotates and is ~50 ft above the runway, suddenly both engines spooling down, very little runway left to land on and no reverse thrust available. I am struck by how similar this scenario is to AI171. This theory would require there to have been unexpected thrust lever movement in the moments before rotation - but plausibly one pilot moving to reject, followed by an overrule or change of heart - or even a simple human error such as the recent BA incident at LGW - could achieve this. This is perhaps more likely that any sensor fault that you would expect to only impact a single engine given the redundancy of systems.
Tdracer writes that a key requirement of TCMA is to identify an engine runaway in the event of an RTO, in order to allow the a/c to stop on the runway. This will have been tested extensively - it is a big leap to imagine a false activation could be triggered. It did happen on ANA985 but through a very unusual set of inputs including application of reverse (albeit this latter point may not be relevant if TCMA logic does not distinguish between the reverser being deployed or not).
Incidentally there is an assumption the TCMA software version in place on the ANA flight had already been patched and fixed on AI171. That probably is the case but I am not sure it is a known fact.
In summary I remain baffled by this tragic accident. I have not yet read anything that explicitly rules out TCMA activation and it remains a possibility due to the vanishingly small number of factors that could shut down two engines at apparently the exact same moment when they have fully redundant systems. Fuel contamination, for example, has typically impacted each engine a few minutes (at least) apart. I am also cautious (as others have pointed out) of a form of confirmation bias about Boeing software systems with four-letter acronyms.
In my mind the cause could equally well be something completely different to anything suggested on this thread, that will only become clear with more evidence. All of the above also incorporates a number of theories, i.e. that there was an engine shutdown - that are not conclusively known.
Thank you to the mods for an excellent job.
1 user liked this post.
2025-06-17T07:42:00
permalink Post: 11904035
If a gear retraction remains in "tilt", then what does that
interregnum
status say in response to various systems' interrogations of the WoW sensors? Is it stuck in the Netherworld of
betwixt and between
?
Perhaps the safer solution should be an additional circuitry micro-switch feed of all three "up and locked"? (that agrees with the gear-handle).
Also waiting to hear what the 787-8 RADALT status is? Was it ever 5G emanations-proofed?
Is there any software provision for the TCMA to know for sure that the gear is neither up nor down? I would doubt it. Does that uncertainty affect the thrust-lever's positional input?
Perhaps the safer solution should be an additional circuitry micro-switch feed of all three "up and locked"? (that agrees with the gear-handle).
Also waiting to hear what the 787-8 RADALT status is? Was it ever 5G emanations-proofed?
Is there any software provision for the TCMA to know for sure that the gear is neither up nor down? I would doubt it. Does that uncertainty affect the thrust-lever's positional input?
Using up and locked as signal to prevent TCMA activation is obviously more dangerous as it allows TCMA to function while the aircraft is in the air.
Even in the same aircraft there might be different logics to determin if the aicraft is on the ground or in the air, depending what is the priority. Is the priority to know that the aircraft is in the air or on the ground or even NOT in the air. Some of those logics could use up-and-locked sensors and the gear handle position.
2 users liked this post.
2025-06-17T13:44:00
permalink Post: 11904315
I'm honestly mystified by the obsession with TCMA. The FADECs control almost every aspect of the engines, so there must be numerous ways they could cause a failure or uncommanded shutdown. So, even if we assume that the engines failed due to faults in the FADECs, why assume that TCMA would be involved?
I think those of us who are persistently trying to learn the details of the sensor inputs to and logic of TCMA (I prefer that characterization to "obsessed with") understand quite well the points you make here — at least those of us whose interest survives in this new thread. However, I at least, and I believe others as well, have also come to the tentative conclusions that (a) the accident aircraft had engines providing little to no useful thrust from nearly the first moments after rotation, and (b) the only possible reasons for that which have been considered here so far involve the sudden and approximately simultaneous shutdown of those engines, most likely by interruption of fuel flow (because that's one of the very few things we know that can do that without producing big bangs, flames and smoke, etc.).
Surely it's more logical to simply posit that some unspecified bug in the FADEC software caused the failure. That bug
could
be related to TCMA, but it could just as easily involve any one of the dozens of other subroutines that likely exist.
Various posters seem to assume that all it takes is an incorrect air/ground signal, and the engines would shut down.
But in fact it would also require the FADECs to read the thrust levers as being at or near idle... AND the engines failing to respond to closure of the fuel metering valve.
I've read the entirety of both threads, and I haven't seen anyone even attempt to explain how a malfunction within the airframe could cause both of those things to occur on both engines (or even one engine!).
Last edited by OldnGrounded; 17th Jun 2025 at 13:46 . Reason: Formatting
5 users liked this post.
2025-06-17T15:00:00
permalink Post: 11904376
The only thing I would add is the limited ADS-B data I have seen shows the a/c decelerating rapidly from the first data point onwards. It is possible the shutdown occurred when the a/c was on the ground (e.g. after V1). This may seem unlikely given the distance flown, but you can do the maths - a fast a/c has a lot of stored kinetic energy.
Last edited by lighttwin2; 18th Jun 2025 at 08:51 .
2025-06-17T23:20:00
permalink Post: 11904756
BTW, I don't know if there is any 'crosstalk' of TCMA activation between engines on the 787. I know we don't do any crosstalk of other engines info on the 747-8, but the 787 is far more integrated, and the amount of data that can put on that ethernet based data bus is massive.
My knee jerk is that they wouldn't crosstalk TCMA status between engines, but the reality is I really don't know.
8 users liked this post.
2025-06-19T13:51:00
permalink Post: 11906035
And add the radio altimeter(s). I think, but don't know, that they provide inputs to the FADEC TCMA function also.
Last edited by T28B; 19th Jun 2025 at 14:38 . Reason: brackets completed
1 user liked this post.
2025-06-19T16:52:00
permalink Post: 11906189
TCMA - first off, I have to admit that this does look rather like an improper TCMA activation, but that is very, very unlikely. For those who don't know, TCMA is a system to shutdown a runaway engine that's not responding to the thrust lever - basic logic is an engine at high power with the thrust lever at/near idle, and the engine not decelerating. However, TCMA is
only
active on the ground (unfamiliar with the 787/GEnx TCMA air/ground logic - on the 747-8 we used 5 sources of air/ground - three Radio Altimeters and two Weight on Wheels - at least
one of each
had to indicate ground to enable TCMA). TCMA will shutdown the engine via the N2 overspeed protection - nearly instantaneous. For this to be TCMA, it would require at least two major failures - improper air ground indication or logic, and improper TCMA activation logic (completely separate software paths in the FADEC). Like I said, very, very unlikely.
I read one post in here of a 747 flaps retracting on takeoff. No Master Caution, no warnings. Apparently, due to some maintenance triggering a software glitch, the computer thought reverse thrust had been activated during a take off. Whether it was still in ground mode I don’t know.
Point is, being a software glitch in TMCA has already shut down two engines on a 787, I don’t see why the same or another software glitch in TMCA or somewhere else couldn’t do the same. Hadn’t this plane just been in for maintenance?
Last edited by T28B; 19th Jun 2025 at 17:05 . Reason: Formatting assistance
4 users liked this post.
2025-06-19T18:05:00
permalink Post: 11906239
Fuel valves and TCMA software updates?
Commanded engine cutoff - the aisle stand fuel switch sends electrical signals to the spar valve and the "High Pressure Shutoff Valve" (HPSOV) in the Fuel Metering Unit, commanding them to open/close using aircraft power. The HPSOV is solenoid controlled, and near instantaneous. The solenoid is of a 'locking' type that needs to be powered both ways (for obvious reasons, you wouldn't want a loss of electrical power to shut down the engine). The fire handle does the same thing, via different electrical paths (i.e. separate wiring).
As I've noted previously, a complete loss of aircraft electrical power would not cause the engines to flameout (or even lose meaningful thrust) during takeoff. In the takeoff altitude envelope, 'suction feed' (I think Airbus calls it 'gravity feed') is more than sufficient to supply the engine driven fuel pumps. It's only when you get up to ~20k ft. that suction feed can become an issue - and this event happened near sea level.
Not matter what's happening on the aircraft side - pushing the thrust levers to the forward stop will give you (at least) rated takeoff power since the only thing required from the aircraft is fuel and thrust lever position (and the thrust lever position resolver is powered by the FADEC).
The TCMA logic is designed and scrubbed so as to be quite robust - flight test data of the engine response to throttle slams is reviewed to insure there is adequate margin between the TCMA limits and the actual engine responses to prevent improper TCMA activation. Again, never say never, but a whole lot would have had to go wrong in the TCMA logic for it to have activated on this flight.
Now, if I assume the speculation that the RAT deployed is correct, I keep coming up with two potential scenarios that could explain what's known regarding this accident:
1) TCMA activation shutdown the engines
or
2) The fuel cutoff switches were activated.
I literally can come up with no other plausible scenarios.
In all due respect to all the pilots on this forum, I really hope it wasn't TCMA. It wouldn't be the first time a mandated 'safety system' has caused an accident (it wouldn't just be Boeing and GE - TCMA was forced by the FAA and EASA to prevent a scenario that had never caused a fatal accident) - and there would be a lot embarrassing questions for all involved. But I personally know many of the people who created, validated, and certified the GEnx-1B TCMA logic - and can't imagine what they would be going through if they missed something (coincidentally, one of them was at my birthday party last weekend and inevitably we ended up talking about what we used to do at Boeing (he's also retired)). Worse, similar TCMA logic is on the GEnx-2B (747-8) - which I was personally responsible for certifying - as well as the GE90-115B and the 737 MAX Leap engine - the consequences of that logic causing this accident would be massive.
As I've noted previously, a complete loss of aircraft electrical power would not cause the engines to flameout (or even lose meaningful thrust) during takeoff. In the takeoff altitude envelope, 'suction feed' (I think Airbus calls it 'gravity feed') is more than sufficient to supply the engine driven fuel pumps. It's only when you get up to ~20k ft. that suction feed can become an issue - and this event happened near sea level.
Not matter what's happening on the aircraft side - pushing the thrust levers to the forward stop will give you (at least) rated takeoff power since the only thing required from the aircraft is fuel and thrust lever position (and the thrust lever position resolver is powered by the FADEC).
The TCMA logic is designed and scrubbed so as to be quite robust - flight test data of the engine response to throttle slams is reviewed to insure there is adequate margin between the TCMA limits and the actual engine responses to prevent improper TCMA activation. Again, never say never, but a whole lot would have had to go wrong in the TCMA logic for it to have activated on this flight.
Now, if I assume the speculation that the RAT deployed is correct, I keep coming up with two potential scenarios that could explain what's known regarding this accident:
1) TCMA activation shutdown the engines
or
2) The fuel cutoff switches were activated.
I literally can come up with no other plausible scenarios.
In all due respect to all the pilots on this forum, I really hope it wasn't TCMA. It wouldn't be the first time a mandated 'safety system' has caused an accident (it wouldn't just be Boeing and GE - TCMA was forced by the FAA and EASA to prevent a scenario that had never caused a fatal accident) - and there would be a lot embarrassing questions for all involved. But I personally know many of the people who created, validated, and certified the GEnx-1B TCMA logic - and can't imagine what they would be going through if they missed something (coincidentally, one of them was at my birthday party last weekend and inevitably we ended up talking about what we used to do at Boeing (he's also retired)). Worse, similar TCMA logic is on the GEnx-2B (747-8) - which I was personally responsible for certifying - as well as the GE90-115B and the 737 MAX Leap engine - the consequences of that logic causing this accident would be massive.
I seem to remember Fred Dibner talking about how railway cars brake by draining the piston not by pressurising it, so trains will stop when supply lines break.
The electrical system updates to 787s for ADs and SBs - do any of these include software updates? For example the integer overflow causing GCU failsafe rectified under AD 2018-20-15. If so, who is writing and implementing these software updates? The original engineers? Their apprentices who had years long handovers? Or have they been outsourced and offshored? When these updates occur, does the entire system get tested and ratified or just the bit the bug fix is meant to fix? Because I\x92ve seen new bugs introduced by bug fixes in areas seemingly nothing to do with the original problem.
2025-06-19T23:04:00
permalink Post: 11906466
I also wonder about this theory that one of the pilots called for reject and pulled the thrust levers back, and the other overruled him and continued the takeoff. Is this plausible? CRM aside, if max braking and spoilers are triggered in this scenario, it doesn't seem so to me.
Last edited by ams6110; 19th Jun 2025 at 23:15 . Reason: typo correction
2025-06-20T00:49:00
permalink Post: 11906514
SLF but I think this makes sense. If pulling from takeoff thust back to idle with WoW would cause TCMA activation, we'd see engine shutdowns on every rejected takeoff.
I also wonder about this theory that one of the pilots called for reject and pulled the thrust levers back, and the other overruled him and continued the takeoff. Is this plausible? CRM aside, if max braking and spoilers are triggered in this scenario, it doesn't seem so to me.
I also wonder about this theory that one of the pilots called for reject and pulled the thrust levers back, and the other overruled him and continued the takeoff. Is this plausible? CRM aside, if max braking and spoilers are triggered in this scenario, it doesn't seem so to me.
Last edited by Lead Balloon; 20th Jun 2025 at 00:59 .
3 users liked this post.
2025-06-20T11:21:00
permalink Post: 11906856
Lead Balloon:
A bit of background on real time computing might help here. Apologies if some of this is tldr, obvious, or a simplification.. The FADEC must monitor the local environment, calculate and control, various aspects of engine operation. eg: baro pressure, temperature, fuel, speed control, overtemp, as well as respond to external commands (speed, start / stop etc) and provide operating status reports in real time, to other parts of the a/c. It\x92s really is a complex, semi autonomous system in it\x92s own right. In the old analog days, there might have been several individual hardware subsystems / black boxes, to do that, but since the advent of low cost reliable computing, more and more of that functionality has been delegated to software processes. Hardware function is abstracted into software space, a single black box replacing many. All those tasks that used separate hardware in the past, now run as individual software processes, at microsecond rate, sequentially. A sleight of hand making it appear as though there are separate computers, one for each item. Some critical tasks require microsecond response times, while others can wait seconds or longer. The way that is managed is by assigning a priority to each task, which ensures that all tasks have access to the processor as needed. Hence, the title, Real Time Systems. The task set shares processor, memory and other hardware, but there is great effort and process expended to encapsulate / isolate individual tasks, even though some of them will need to communicate with each other. Done right, that kind of system design can improve reliability due to far less hardware, and lowers cost and weight. However, it does concentrate for more design complexity into a much smaller abstract space, and needs a rigorous development process for safety critical applications.
Getting back to the point, if the TCMA function is resident on the FADEC, then it\x92s likely that it is just one software task of many running on a single set of FADEC hardware. Pretty opaque and no idea how we can begin to analyse that here. Iirc, tdracer said elsewhere that the various TCMA input qualifiers are handled by the airframe (?) , with a single yes / no input to the FADEC, but need to verify that. Really important to define what does what and where.
A bit of background on real time computing might help here. Apologies if some of this is tldr, obvious, or a simplification.. The FADEC must monitor the local environment, calculate and control, various aspects of engine operation. eg: baro pressure, temperature, fuel, speed control, overtemp, as well as respond to external commands (speed, start / stop etc) and provide operating status reports in real time, to other parts of the a/c. It\x92s really is a complex, semi autonomous system in it\x92s own right. In the old analog days, there might have been several individual hardware subsystems / black boxes, to do that, but since the advent of low cost reliable computing, more and more of that functionality has been delegated to software processes. Hardware function is abstracted into software space, a single black box replacing many. All those tasks that used separate hardware in the past, now run as individual software processes, at microsecond rate, sequentially. A sleight of hand making it appear as though there are separate computers, one for each item. Some critical tasks require microsecond response times, while others can wait seconds or longer. The way that is managed is by assigning a priority to each task, which ensures that all tasks have access to the processor as needed. Hence, the title, Real Time Systems. The task set shares processor, memory and other hardware, but there is great effort and process expended to encapsulate / isolate individual tasks, even though some of them will need to communicate with each other. Done right, that kind of system design can improve reliability due to far less hardware, and lowers cost and weight. However, it does concentrate for more design complexity into a much smaller abstract space, and needs a rigorous development process for safety critical applications.
Getting back to the point, if the TCMA function is resident on the FADEC, then it\x92s likely that it is just one software task of many running on a single set of FADEC hardware. Pretty opaque and no idea how we can begin to analyse that here. Iirc, tdracer said elsewhere that the various TCMA input qualifiers are handled by the airframe (?) , with a single yes / no input to the FADEC, but need to verify that. Really important to define what does what and where.
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2025-06-21T12:49:00
permalink Post: 11907719
There was no sign of asymmetric thrust failure, but rather, nearly total loss of thrust just after rotation. Something has caused a catastrophic electric failure that has impacted the air /ground logic functions. There are signs that this event is unique, although there have been cases in the past where the logic has failed and the aircraft no longer knows if it's airborne or not. The crew were probably faced with something they weren't trained for and overwhelmed them. There would have been not enough time to troubleshoot this.
In the scenario you are considering, it's clear that the air/ground state would be wrongly "understood" by the TCMA function. But we don't have, AFAIK , a credible theory for how that might happen. Surely it would have to result from either incorrect signals from the relevant sensors or a failure of the related logic in the FADEC TCMA function, or a combination of those. Indeed, I don't think we yet know exactly which sensor readings that logic depends on or how those readings are fed to the FADEC. Does your speculation include any thoughts about this?
Also, the FADEC TCMA function has to "believe" that the engine is operating at high power and not responding to thrust lever operation. In your proposed scenario, is this also a logic failure \x97 in both FADECs? Or false inputs from both TLs? Or are both engines actually operating at higher than commanded power levels?
Or do I misunderstand your post?
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2025-06-21T15:46:00
permalink Post: 11907858
TCMA continues to be one of the few (very unlikely) causes of/contributors to simultaneous shutdown of both engines. So far, though, I don't think we've seen a credible scenario explaining the possibility that TCMA was triggered in this accident. I'm not sure I understand your speculation.
In the scenario you are considering, it's clear that the air/ground state would be wrongly "understood" by the TCMA function. But we don't have, AFAIK , a credible theory for how that might happen. Surely it would have to result from either incorrect signals from the relevant sensors or a failure of the related logic in the FADEC TCMA function, or a combination of those. Indeed, I don't think we yet know exactly which sensor readings that logic depends on or how those readings are fed to the FADEC. Does your speculation include any thoughts about this?
Also, the FADEC TCMA function has to "believe" that the engine is operating at high power and not responding to thrust lever operation. In your proposed scenario, is this also a logic failure — in both FADECs? Or false inputs from both TLs? Or are both engines actually operating at higher than commanded power levels?
Or do I misunderstand your post?
In the scenario you are considering, it's clear that the air/ground state would be wrongly "understood" by the TCMA function. But we don't have, AFAIK , a credible theory for how that might happen. Surely it would have to result from either incorrect signals from the relevant sensors or a failure of the related logic in the FADEC TCMA function, or a combination of those. Indeed, I don't think we yet know exactly which sensor readings that logic depends on or how those readings are fed to the FADEC. Does your speculation include any thoughts about this?
Also, the FADEC TCMA function has to "believe" that the engine is operating at high power and not responding to thrust lever operation. In your proposed scenario, is this also a logic failure — in both FADECs? Or false inputs from both TLs? Or are both engines actually operating at higher than commanded power levels?
Or do I misunderstand your post?
- In error, PF reduces power to idle and/or reverse at a speed after V1 (either deciding to reject, or for some unexplained reason e.g. the recent BA incident at LGW)
- Decision is changed to continue take-off, thrust levers moved to TOGA
- Let's say the thrust inputs are similar to NM985 and TCMA is triggered; and engines shut down around the time of rotation
- A/C rotates achieving a maximum speed in the region of 184kts
Q: Would the a/c have enough kinetic energy a 184kts to climb to 100-150ft agl and then reach its final position if the engines had failed at, or just, before rotation?
A: Theoretically possible - see calculation here . NB, the a/c actually flew 1.5km from the end of the runway and 2.3km from the likely point of rotation.
Q: Doesn't the forward position of the gear mean that power failed after the pilots had selected gear up?
A: Inconclusive - had hydraulic power had been lost prior to rotation, the gear could also be in this position - explanation here
Q: If the throttle levers were brought to idle during take-off, would the A/C have applied autobrake, reversers and speedbrake?
A: Yes, although there is a built in delay before reverser and speedbrake actually deploy - see here .
Q: Is the ADS-B data consistent with this scenario?
A: Yes, e.g. the Flightradar data shows the aircraft decelerating rapidly (12 knots in 4.2 seconds) from close to rotation. However, it's not clear how accurate this data is. For one, the altitude data is +/- 25 feet, second, while I was under the impression FR would have received airspeed data from the a/c sensors, this post suggests maybe not.
Q: Does TCMA activation require the thrust levers to be at idle or does it function when the thrust levels are above idle, but where the actual thrust is above that commanded?
A: No, the latter is true (i.e. idle is not required) - confirmed here - there are of course many protections against false activation
Q. Did AI171 have the same software version / logic paths as NH-985
A. Unknown. That a/c had Trent 1000s so to some extent the software is different, but we understand the TCMA logic is broadly the same regardless of engine. I have not seen a post clarifying whether the TCMA software has been updated /changed via SB since 2019 to account for this incident.
Be grateful if posters could refrain from speculative responses "e.g. I think this is unlikely because I feel x". I am not opining on how likely this sequence of events is, simply trying to summarise whether or not this theory has been ruled in or out.
I also recommend this post for a summary to read before posting. .
Last edited by lighttwin2; 21st Jun 2025 at 16:13 .
2025-06-22T10:03:00
permalink Post: 11908402
SLF Engineer (electrical - not aerospace) so no special knowledge
Perceived wisdom may be applicable in normal circumstances but not when all the holes line up.
For example I've seen it quoted many times that the engine FADECs are self powered
by the engines, the TCMAs-whether part of the FADEC or a separate unit, similarly self contained
within the engine. The perceived wisdom seems to be that there is no common single fault
which can take out both engines.
And yet we're also told that the TCMA function can only function in ground mode and receives ground-air
signals from a combination of inputs from Rad Alts and WOW sensors.
There is therefore a connection from the central EE bay to the engine.
Yes I'm sure the Rad/Alt and WOW sensor processing will use different sensors for each side and powered from different
low voltage buses.
However as an analogy, in your house your toaster in the kitchen may be on a separate circuit from the water heater in
the bathroom, each protected by a fuse at the main switchboard. In normal operation a fault in one cannot affect the other.
However a lightning strike outside the house can send much higher voltages than normal operation throughout the entire
system and trash every electrical appliance not physically disconnected at the time.
Now I'm not suggesting the aircraft was hit by lightning but FDR has proposed a single event, buildup from a water leak entering
one of the EE bays at rotate. It would be possible for one or more of the HV electrical buses to short so that all the low voltage
buses go high voltage. I have no knowledge of how the FADEC / TCMA systems connect to or process the Ground-Air signals but
there is a single fault mechanism whereby high voltage could be simultaneously and inappropriately applied to both engine control systems.
It would be unfortunate if this failure mechanism did cause power to be applied to drive the fuel shut off valve closed.
Since the likelihood is that we're looking at a low probability event then perceived wisdom about normal operations and fault modes
might not be applicable.
Perceived wisdom may be applicable in normal circumstances but not when all the holes line up.
For example I've seen it quoted many times that the engine FADECs are self powered
by the engines, the TCMAs-whether part of the FADEC or a separate unit, similarly self contained
within the engine. The perceived wisdom seems to be that there is no common single fault
which can take out both engines.
And yet we're also told that the TCMA function can only function in ground mode and receives ground-air
signals from a combination of inputs from Rad Alts and WOW sensors.
There is therefore a connection from the central EE bay to the engine.
Yes I'm sure the Rad/Alt and WOW sensor processing will use different sensors for each side and powered from different
low voltage buses.
However as an analogy, in your house your toaster in the kitchen may be on a separate circuit from the water heater in
the bathroom, each protected by a fuse at the main switchboard. In normal operation a fault in one cannot affect the other.
However a lightning strike outside the house can send much higher voltages than normal operation throughout the entire
system and trash every electrical appliance not physically disconnected at the time.
Now I'm not suggesting the aircraft was hit by lightning but FDR has proposed a single event, buildup from a water leak entering
one of the EE bays at rotate. It would be possible for one or more of the HV electrical buses to short so that all the low voltage
buses go high voltage. I have no knowledge of how the FADEC / TCMA systems connect to or process the Ground-Air signals but
there is a single fault mechanism whereby high voltage could be simultaneously and inappropriately applied to both engine control systems.
It would be unfortunate if this failure mechanism did cause power to be applied to drive the fuel shut off valve closed.
Since the likelihood is that we're looking at a low probability event then perceived wisdom about normal operations and fault modes
might not be applicable.
1 user liked this post.
2025-06-22T11:01:00
permalink Post: 11908441
Always possible, however since a pilot made a radio call there was some
emergency leve
l power available, which suggests the EAFR would be powered.
The Jeju recorders were okay if I recall correctly, they just had no input, was that the case?
Somoeone made a good point above about the German Wings FDR/CVR being available the next day after the aircraft was aimed at the ground like a missile. These things are built tough, as you know, this may be type specific but….
The Jeju recorders were okay if I recall correctly, they just had no input, was that the case?
Somoeone made a good point above about the German Wings FDR/CVR being available the next day after the aircraft was aimed at the ground like a missile. These things are built tough, as you know, this may be type specific but….
(from the online 2010 FCOM)
(from the maintenance training )
The 787 battery fire report says the two recorders are on the left and right 28VDC buses. I don't think those get powered on RAT by the looks of it. I would wager you get whatever is on the 235VAC 'backup bus', plus the captain's and F/O's instrument buses via C1/C2 TRUs. You won't get all of that (like the F/O's screens) because the 787 energises/de-energises specific bits of equipment, not just whole buses.
Losing recorder power looks entirely expected.
SLF Engineer (electrical - not aerospace) so no special knowledge
Perceived wisdom may be applicable in normal circumstances but not when all the holes line up.
For example I've seen it quoted many times that the engine FADECs are self powered
by the engines, the TCMAs-whether part of the FADEC or a separate unit, similarly self contained
within the engine. The perceived wisdom seems to be that there is no common single fault
which can take out both engines.
And yet we're also told that the TCMA function can only function in ground mode and receives ground-air
signals from a combination of inputs from Rad Alts and WOW sensors.
There is therefore a connection from the central EE bay to the engine.
Yes I'm sure the Rad/Alt and WOW sensor processing will use different sensors for each side and powered from different
low voltage buses.
However as an analogy, in your house your toaster in the kitchen may be on a separate circuit from the water heater in
the bathroom, each protected by a fuse at the main switchboard. In normal operation a fault in one cannot affect the other.
However a lightning strike outside the house can send much higher voltages than normal operation throughout the entire
system and trash every electrical appliance not physically disconnected at the time.
Now I'm not suggesting the aircraft was hit by lightning but FDR has proposed a single event, buildup from a water leak entering
one of the EE bays at rotate. It would be possible for one or more of the HV electrical buses to short so that all the low voltage
buses go high voltage. I have no knowledge of how the FADEC / TCMA systems connect to or process the Ground-Air signals but
there is a single fault mechanism whereby high voltage could be simultaneously and inappropriately applied to both engine control systems.
It would be unfortunate if this failure mechanism did cause power to be applied to drive the fuel shut off valve closed.
Since the likelihood is that we're looking at a low probability event then perceived wisdom about normal operations and fault modes
might not be applicable.
Perceived wisdom may be applicable in normal circumstances but not when all the holes line up.
For example I've seen it quoted many times that the engine FADECs are self powered
by the engines, the TCMAs-whether part of the FADEC or a separate unit, similarly self contained
within the engine. The perceived wisdom seems to be that there is no common single fault
which can take out both engines.
And yet we're also told that the TCMA function can only function in ground mode and receives ground-air
signals from a combination of inputs from Rad Alts and WOW sensors.
There is therefore a connection from the central EE bay to the engine.
Yes I'm sure the Rad/Alt and WOW sensor processing will use different sensors for each side and powered from different
low voltage buses.
However as an analogy, in your house your toaster in the kitchen may be on a separate circuit from the water heater in
the bathroom, each protected by a fuse at the main switchboard. In normal operation a fault in one cannot affect the other.
However a lightning strike outside the house can send much higher voltages than normal operation throughout the entire
system and trash every electrical appliance not physically disconnected at the time.
Now I'm not suggesting the aircraft was hit by lightning but FDR has proposed a single event, buildup from a water leak entering
one of the EE bays at rotate. It would be possible for one or more of the HV electrical buses to short so that all the low voltage
buses go high voltage. I have no knowledge of how the FADEC / TCMA systems connect to or process the Ground-Air signals but
there is a single fault mechanism whereby high voltage could be simultaneously and inappropriately applied to both engine control systems.
It would be unfortunate if this failure mechanism did cause power to be applied to drive the fuel shut off valve closed.
Since the likelihood is that we're looking at a low probability event then perceived wisdom about normal operations and fault modes
might not be applicable.
Weight on wheels appears to go into data concentrators that go into the common core system (i.e. data network).
Presumably there is a set of comms buses between the FADECs and the CCS to allow all the pretty indicators and EICAS alerts in the cockpit to work. The WoW sensors might flow back via that, or via dedicated digital inputs from whatever the reverse of a data concentrator is called (surely they have need for field actuators other than big motors?). Either way, left and right engine data should come from completely different computers, that are in the fwd e/e bay (or concentrators/repeaters in the wings, maybe) rather than in with the big power stuff in the aft e/e bay.
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