Page Links: First Previous 1 2 3 Last Index Page
nachtmusak
2025-06-19T04:49:00 permalink Post: 11905714 |
The autopilot would not have been in and the pilot would have been hand flying maintaining the takeoff attitude. The flight director might have commanded a level off which obviously would not have been followed.
Minimum autopilot engagement altitude is 200\x92 for the 78 (from others on the forum). It\x92s 400\x92 AGL on the 777. My interest is in how the auto throttles would have behaved in such a situation\x97where VNAV would not be engaged yet and the automatics gone into SPD/ALT. ; would they have pulled off thrust assuming a level off and then come back in to maintain bug speed (perhaps confusing the crew in the process ?). Actually...doesn't the autothrottle normally enter HOLD mode once the aircraft enters the high-speed regime during its takeoff roll? And only re-engages its actual selected mode at 400 feet (or maybe 200 feet?), and in the time in between the crew is supposed to have manual control of thrust? It seems backwards to me that any automated systems would ever override the pilot's requested thrust on purpose at such a sensitive stage of flight and I thought that the autothrottle goes into hold for exactly that reason. Coupled with the fact that it would be extremely early in the flight to turn on the autopilot...I'm sure I have a very simplified understanding of how this all works. But I'm struggling to see how - unless the crew had also made some other egregious mistake in their preflight preparations in addition to entering the wrong target altitude - it could go so badly in this specific manner so quickly after lift-off. 1 user liked this post. |
nachtmusak
2025-06-19T14:15:00 permalink Post: 11906057 |
Except that the PF does not immediately get the cue that the power is backing off, because he removed his hand from the power levers at V1. If he sees the Flight Directors indicating down after take off.... of course he will ignore that command and maintain the normal 14deg NU +/- for the expected all-engines climb. However when the speed starts to decay he starts to get the message all is not well and tries to salvage the situation. If the FD goes into altitude capture then the autothrottle becomes speed-on-throttle. Unfortunately the AT logic presumes you are following the FD. If you are now NOT following FD commands then the results become unpredictable. On correct speed but above FCU selected altitude = throttles close.
Just after rotate is a very busy time for your scan. The FMA modes are in the HUD for both pilots to see, however did they have time to read and digest rapidly changing autoflight modes? I have way more experience flying the B744 than the B788 but I can see this happening on either type. How many times were you reminded to RTF FMA! My understanding (and others have corroborated this) is that in a standard departure the autothrottle is armed and starts the takeoff roll in THR REF mode. It goes into HOLD mode when the IAS passes 80 knots (obviously still on the ground). While it is in HOLD mode, the autothrottle is physically inhibited from moving the thrust levers. It then automatically re-engages at 400ft AGL (though I am not sure how the altitude is measured), and begins to operate as requested by various human and computer systems. If something about my explanation is wrong, please let me know - but if it is correct, then how would the autothrottle roll back thrust drastically in what looks like the first few seconds of the flight? I do understand that what you describe is how the autothrottle would behave when it is active, but it sounds to me like it is by design not supposed to actually be active during the critical time that we are looking at no matter what automations are armed to be activated once the aircraft is safely away from the ground. Unless the crew did something to cause it to engage - and I'm not sure what that would even be. What would they plausibly be doing before even retracting the landing gear? My only guess was that depending on how the altitude is measured to determine whether the 400ft gate has been passed (radio altimeter? pressure altitude?), the autothrottle might have come out of HOLD mode (along with VNAV if armed) at a lower altitude than it was supposed to due to some mechanical fault or crew error. But that's already a bigger kettle of fish than just altitude capture... |
M.Mouse
2025-06-19T14:25:00 permalink Post: 11906063 |
It then automatically re-engages at 400ft AGL (though I am not sure how the altitude is measured), and begins to operate as requested by various human and computer systems.
3 users liked this post. |
nachtmusak
2025-06-19T15:04:00 permalink Post: 11906095 |
Re: mayday call transmission, isn't that easily battery powered? At least on the captain's side. Sorry, maybe the context was lost - I was responding to a theory that did argue that the aircraft was automatically trying to capture a target altitude that was incorrectly set too low. That has happened before, but the incidents I could find looked very different from this one (one Dash 8 and one A330, both involved the crew activating the autopilot). 1 user liked this post. |
Musician
2025-06-20T05:30:00 permalink Post: 11906603 |
TCMA things, imagination and evidence
You may be surprised to know that TCMA doesn't require that, it just requires a differential between commanded and actual thrust.
It has never triggered during takeoff until now. Maybe it still hasn't been. We'll see. Given there is an actual example of a 787 in the wild shutting down both of it's engines when it shouldn't (ANA), I'm surprised how complacent people are that this couldn't be the cause..Software can always have weird corner failures that could never have been thought of or tested. Note that the thrust lever actuators are wired to the FADECs, and that the TCMA gets the T/L position from that. For TCMA to trigger, it has to determine that its FADEC (on that engine) failed to achieve a commanded reduction in thrust. So we're either looking at a weird, unprecedented edge case, or a FADEC failure, or both.
Just so I have this clear, are you saying that the implementation of the TCMA functionality involved
no
new components being added to the pre-existing FADEC? Are you saying, in effect, that the two switch relays described in the TCMA patent application, which relays and their configuration achieves the described two channel redundancy, were already there as components or are mere depictions of what the software does itself?
Originally Posted by
Lead Balloon
I am not suggesting you are wrong and, as I've said before, the descriptions and schematic in the patent application are just 'big hands / small maps' concepts. However, if TCMA functionality "is simply a bit of software in the FADECs", merely sending a 1 or 0 or other signal into a point in the pre-existing FADEC that already had control over fuel cutoff (with the TCMA software merely monitoring data busses, rather than direct sensor outputs, to work out thrust lever position and whether or not the aircraft is 'on the ground' for TCMA purposes) I for one would really like to know that for sure and get my head around the implications.
With a MCAS crash, it required a hardware problem with an AOA sensor, used as input to a correctly working MCAS, to cause the aircraft to behave erratically. With a correctly working TCMA, I believe it'd require two hardware problems to get TCMA to shut down the engine, as there'd have to be an implausible thrust lever reading, and a FADEC/engine failure to process it within the TCMA allowed range ("contour"?). On both engines, separately and simultaneously. That leaves a software problem; it's not hard to imagine. The issue is, at this point it's just that: imagination. I could detail a possible software failure chain, but without examining the actual code, it's impossible to verify. We simply don't have the evidence. I could just as well imagine a microwave gun frying the electronics on both engines. An escaped hamster under the floor peeing on important contacts. A timed device installed by a psychopathic mechanic. There's no evidence for that, either. This process is a way to psychologically cope with the unexplained accident, but because it lacks evidence, it's not likely to identify the actual cause. We've run the evidence down to "most likely both engines failed or shut off close to rotation, and the cause for that is inside the aircraft". Since the take-off looked normal until that failure, we have no clues as to the cause hidden inside the aircraft. We need to rely on the official investigation to discover and analyse sufficient evidence. The post-crash fire is going to make that difficult. "Both engines failed or shut off close to rotation" explains all of the evidence : it explains an unremarkable take-off roll, loss of lift, absence of pronounced yaw, loss of electrical power, loss of the ADS-B transponder, RAT deployment, the noise of the RAT banging into place and revving up, emergency signs lighting up, a possible mayday call reporting loss of thrust/power/lift, and a physically plausible glide from a little over 200 ft AAL to the crash site It explains what we saw on the videos, what the witness reported, where the aircraft ended up, and the ensuing sudden catastrophe. I don't believe we have evidence for anything else right now—I'd be happily corrected on that. ----- Edit: the evidence of the crash photo with the open APU inlet door, and the main gear bogeys tilted forward, are also explained by the dual engine failure/shut off. Last edited by Musician; 21st Jun 2025 at 06:48 . Reason: more evidence 17 users liked this post. |
sabenaboy
2025-06-20T07:45:00 permalink Post: 11906669 |
"Both engines failed or shut off close to rotation" explains all of the evidence : it explains an unremarkable take-off roll, loss of lift, absence of pronounced yaw, loss of electrical power, loss of the ADS-B transponder, RAT deployment, the noise of the RAT banging into place and revving up, emergency signs lighting up, a possible mayday call reporting loss of thrust/power/lift, and a physically plausible glide from a little over 200 ft AAL to a crash site 50 feet (?) below aerodrome elevation. It explains what we saw on the videos, what the witness reported, where the aircraft ended up, and the ensuing sudden catastrophe. I don't believe we have evidence for anything else right now—I'd be happily corrected on that. The EAFR will tell the story, but the reason for the crash will always remain a "mystery" because the B787 was not equipped with EPTPR's! ( E nhanced P ilot's T hought P rocess R ecorders) I think AI171 will go down in history with MSR990 an MH370. ![]() |
martinebrangan
2025-06-20T09:07:00 permalink Post: 11906750 |
Engine failure due to water contamination is surely a different investigation to biocide contamination? I expect they're looking into both, but they're not that closely linked.
Surprising that you can do nearly a minute of takeoff+climbout then fail cleanly and silently within seconds of each other. |
Someone Somewhere
2025-06-20T09:14:00 permalink Post: 11906758 |
I would, of course, presume, that take-off roll performance was within expected limits, otherwise they would have aborted by V1. They reached VR before running totally out of runway, and achieved a short-lasting climb. What one single point of failure occurred very shortly after aircraft went nose-up and would it be possible that the fuel feed in some way affected by virtue of that angle in the context of some failure?
Runway performance seems to be still under some speculation but I thought it was fairly solidly shown that they rotated in about the normal position. Two events that I see are rotate (g-forces/deck angle causing fuel sloshing) and weight-on-wheels going false due to lift-off. The engines would be fed separately by the left and right pumps in the centre tank as there's >34t of fuel onboard; one pump per engine. I am not sure how physically separated they are in the tank. |
MaybeItIs
2025-06-20T09:24:00 permalink Post: 11906767 |
"Both engines failed or shut off close to rotation" explains all of the evidence
: it explains an unremarkable take-off roll, loss of lift, absence of pronounced yaw, loss of electrical power, loss of the ADS-B transponder, RAT deployment, the noise of the RAT banging into place and revving up, emergency signs lighting up, a possible mayday call reporting loss of thrust/power/lift, and a physically plausible glide from a little over 200 ft AAL to a crash site 50 feet (?) below aerodrome elevation.
Can anyone do the Momentum / Energy calculations to work out how high the plane would have travelled at the normal climb gradient purely on the momentum it had at rotation? I'll try, see how far I get. A stone, fired into the air at an upward angle, begins to slow down and curve towards the earth the moment it leaves the catapult. It appears to me that the plane climbed at approximately a steady speed until about the 200 ft mark, so I submit that it had adequate climb thrust up to "about" that point. Which, as confirmed in the earlier thread, is about where GEARUP is typically called. I say those two events are linked, led by GEARUP, but it could be coincidence. Though I don't think so. Coincidence usually refers to unrelated events and that would be very hard to say, here. On that point, the gear, as far as I can establish (not openly published according to Google), weighs around 8-odd to 10 tonnes. Typically, retracts in about 10 seconds. I estimate it's no more than a 2 metre lift. As far as I can work out (using 3m to make the value higher), that requires about 30kW (rough estimate, budgetary figure, not accounting for it being a curved path, so it's probably higher closer to fully up), but whether wind pressure affects it, I have no idea. Anyway, 30kW isn't a huge (additional) load on a 225kVA alternator. Less than I'd imagined. Now I'm wondering how big (power ratings) the hydraulic pump and motor are? No doubt, they're driven by a VSD. Can anyone comment, please? Last edited by MaybeItIs; 20th Jun 2025 at 09:37 . Reason: Oops, numbers mixed up... |
FullWings
2025-06-20T09:43:00 permalink Post: 11906781 |
Although it seems inconceivable that they did not firewall the thrust levers, it will be interesting to know if and when this happened. The aircraft clearly did not have enough thrust for the flight regime with the gear extended etc. But does this imply a total loss of thrust on both engines?
I would be very surprised if the thrust levers were not firewalled early on, in fact with such determination that they went through the instrument panel! On a wider observation, professional commercial pilots like the Air India ones in this accident go through regular simulator training according their own SOPs, which when dealing with things like thrust loss during or after the takeoff roll are likely pretty similar or even identical to the manufacturer\x92s guidelines; if they did differ it would be because they were more conservative in application. Boeing standard is to do nothing until 200\x92AGL other than control the aircraft in yaw, pitch and roll. Above 400\x92AGL you can start doing some drills, if applicable. This assumes, of course, that you can get to these heights in the first place. I would put forward that in this accident, the crew immediately found themselves in what Boeing call \x93Special situations\x94 or \x93Situations beyond the scope of normal procedures\x94. We don\x92t know yet whether there was a thrust loss or total failure at the outset; we don\x92t know if the RAT deployed due to sensed failures or control operation. As a trainer, the captain would have known the implications of actioning the dual engine failure memory items, especially near the ground, but if you\x92ve tried everything else and are still going down then what is there to lose? This is not to suggest this is what happened, just to fill in the blanks in terms of possibilities. Whatever did occur likely put them outside the realm of SOPs in short order, which is a difficult situation at the best of times, especially as for your whole flying career you have been trained and assessed at your ability to conform to those SOPs as accurately as possible in the takeoff phase. 9 users liked this post. |
Europa01
2025-06-20T13:25:00 permalink Post: 11906973 |
TCMA
And each FADEC is unique to the engine in which it is hosted. So whilst these may be "autonomous" they still rely on data external to the engine itself such as WoW and Rad Alt where they hold more "sway" than they do in the flight deck.
Are these values recorded in the FDR? Are values from the FADEC recorded? I’d like to add a complimentary test to user989’s logic on TCMA faults. Regardless of whether the ‘aircraft on ground’ signal was incorrect after rotation it would have been correct during the takeoff roll. IF there was an unrevealed fault in a thrust lever position signal THEN why didn’t TCMA activate during taxiing or the takeoff roll? Such a fault occurring spontaneously in just the few seconds after rotation is way way down the probability table. Such a fault occurring spontaneously on both separate (think ETOPS) engine control systems is surely vanishingly unlikely. They may be out there but you’d have to ask if TCMA is implicated where are the lower consequence precursor events in the 787 fleet? These might be spurious TCMA action on one engine or faults with ‘aircraft on ground’ found during maintenance or engines not responding to thrust lever position and so on. Change Analysis would ask what happened differently in the few seconds after rotation on this flight that separates it from all other 787 takeoffs and why at that particular time ?The interim report will provide some answers until then please let’s confine this thread to fact based technical discussion and debate. Re-reading this I did briefly consider suggesting engine overshoot of thrust lever positions and FADEC shut down on N1 overspeed but that leaves a lot of WHY and WHY both engines questions so I dismissed it. 3 users liked this post. |
Innaflap
2025-06-20T13:57:00 permalink Post: 11906991 |
The excellent #724 post by user989 really should be seen as the defining statement on what is currently known.
I\x92d like to add a complimentary test to user989\x92s logic on TCMA faults. Regardless of whether the \x91aircraft on ground\x92 signal was incorrect after rotation it would have been correct during the takeoff roll. IF there was an unrevealed fault in a thrust lever position signal THEN why didn\x92t TCMA activate during taxiing or the takeoff roll? Such a fault occurring spontaneously in just the few seconds after rotation is way way down the probability table. Such a fault occurring spontaneously on both separate (think ETOPS) engine control systems is surely vanishingly unlikely. They may be out there but you\x92d have to ask if TCMA is implicated where are the lower consequence precursor events in the 787 fleet? These might be spurious TCMA action on one engine or faults with \x91aircraft on ground\x92 found during maintenance or engines not responding to thrust lever position and so on. Change Analysis would ask what happened differently in the few seconds after rotation on this flight that separates it from all other 787 takeoffs and why at that particular time ?The interim report will provide some answers until then please let\x92s confine this thread to fact based technical discussion and debate. Re-reading this I did briefly consider suggesting engine overshoot of thrust lever positions and FADEC shut down on N1 overspeed but that leaves a lot of WHY and WHY both engines questions so I dismissed it. Also during this period, the Rad Alt may not have been giving useful values given its proximity to the ground These two factors alone could increase the possibility of an error quite considerably..... 2 users liked this post. |
Shep69
2025-06-20T21:52:00 permalink Post: 11907348 |
To be clear, are you stating categorically or guessing (or neither, and I'm misreading you and you mean something else) that the 787's autothrottle will come
out of HOLD
and into SPD mode
below 400 feet
by design in response to the altitude that's set in the mode control panel, entirely by itself, without the autopilot engaged? Not that this is the way it would behave in normal flight - that this is the way it is
designed
to behave while it's in HOLD mode for takeoff?
I am actually looking for an answer from a pilot (or at least someone with an FCOM who can share any relevant passages) because nothing I have been able to look up on my own suggests that this is the case. All secondary sources I can find just say that the autothrottle is inhibited under 400 feet on takeoff, with my impression being that the crew is expected to manage thrust manually during that phase of flight. The incidents I was able to turn up involving an aircraft attempting to capture a target altitude at takeoff specifically don't help either: - G-ECOE: Flight was completely normal until the crew engaged the autopilot at 1350 feet, at which point the aircraft started diving to the target of 0 feet. However it involved a Dash 8 and not only is that not a Boeing aircraft, it doesn't have an autothrottle to begin with. Nothing to conclude from this. - F-WWKH: Again automated deviation was triggered by the crew engaging the autopilot a few seconds after takeoff as part of a test flight. However again also not a Boeing aircraft (an A330) and the selected target altitude was 2000 feet so the autopilot tried to pitch up to capture it. Not sure if anything can be concluded from this. - A6-EQI: The most relevant, being a Boeing 777, with wide speculation being that the selected altitude was left at 0 feet. However the preliminary report is very thin so there's little to go on in the way of factual information, but the problem seems to entirely have been that the pilot flying was following the flight directors without question. There's zero indication of any loss of thrust, in fact they seem to have nearly entered an overspeed condition partly due to the shallow climb angle implying that the engines were doing just fine. So it doesn't seem like the selected altitude caused the autothrottle to do anything. I am sorry if it seems like I'm banging on about this autothrottle point a bit much but as an engineer it just seems completely backwards to me. What exactly is the point of the HOLD mode or of setting those specific gates (80 knots, 400 feet) if the autothrottle can so easily come out of it? The design might as well not have it at all and just leave the autothrottle in THR REF for takeoff then - what would be the difference? I am guessing because although I flew the 777 I never tried a low altitude capture before VNAV engaged — and it`s been a few years). But think it probably would. As one goes through 50’ LNAV engages; VNAV is normally armed prior to the EFIS check if it`s to be used (which it usually is). So in this scenario LNAV would have been engaged but since VNAV is armed but never engages my guess is that the automatics would engage in SPD/LVAV/ALT. I could be wrong. The PF would have been hand flying (and obviously not following the flight director with autothrottles engaged). HOLD is present in many other regimes of flight; all it means is that the auththrottle (right now) is not controlling the throttles and they stay where they are—and the PF can move them if desired at will. Fr` instance, when descending in FLCH or even VNAV SPD the throttles will usually be in HOLD. (To me this usually meant `hold` the throttles—and tweek them in descent as required). Thrust can be modulated to adjust rate of descent (the throttles become vertical speed levers). On altitude capture in the case of FLCH or path capture in the case of VNAV SPD (in descent) the auththrottles kick in and it becomes SPD/xxx/ALT (or VPTH or VALT as the case might be). Most everyone knew the autothrottles would not engage below 400` and that FLCH in descent at very low altitudes was not an appropriate mode — and they did not activate providing low speed protection in the case of Asiana. IIRC our throttles went into HOLD at 60 knots and stayed there until VNAV activated (THR REF—takeoff thrust). It was also possible that the autothrottles under some environmentals wouldn`t fully achieve takeoff thrust setting (EPR or N1 depending on which engines) and they could be manually moved in HOLD to achieve it. Although I don`t remember that as ever happening. But at this point it`s a guess because I never did it (MCP set at low altitude on takeoff with VNAV never engaging). Perhaps someone else has. Last edited by Shep69; 20th Jun 2025 at 22:05 . |
nachtmusak
2025-06-20T22:24:00 permalink Post: 11907362 |
The autopilot would NOT be engaged below 400\x92 (or 200\x92 in the 78\x96although I doubt anyone engages it that low). The autopilot and autothrottles are separate systems but do interact. The autothrottles typically WOULD be engaged from the start of the takeoff roll; using the TOGA levers to set takeoff thrust).
I am guessing because although I flew the 777 I never tried a low altitude capture before VNAV engaged \x97 and it`s been a few years). But think it probably would. As one goes through 50\x92 LNAV engages; VNAV is normally armed prior to the EFIS check if it`s to be used (which it usually is). So in this scenario LNAV would have been engaged but since VNAV is armed but never engages my guess is that the automatics would engage in SPD/LVAV/ALT. I could be wrong. The PF would have been hand flying (and obviously not following the flight director with autothrottles engaged. HOLD is present in many other regimes of flight; all it means is that the auththrottle (right now) is not controlling the throttles and they stay where they are\x97and the PF can move them if desired at will. Fr` instance, when descending in FLCH or even VNAV SPD the throttles will usually be in HOLD. (To me this usually meant `hold` the throttles\x97and tweek them in descent as required). Thrust can be modulated to adjust rate of descent (the throttles become vertical speed levers). On altitude capture in the case of FLCH or path capture in the case of VNAV SPD (in descent) the auththrottles kick in and it becomes SPD/xxx/ALT (or VPTH or VALT as the case might be). Most everyone knew the autothrottles would not engage below 400` and that FLCH in descent at very low altitudes was not an appropriate mode \x97 and they did not activate providing low speed protection in the case of Asiana. But at this point it`s a guess because I never did it (MCP set at low altitude on takeoff with VNAV never engaging). Perhaps someone else has. Also to be clear I do know that the autopilot and autothrottle are independent - I have been talking about the autopilot because as I listed, in the incidents I could find where the aircraft automatically tried to capture a target altitude on takeoff, the autopilot was first engaged. So my impression was that until then the aircraft might provide guidance (like in the Emirates case) but will not actually do anything to change the thrust, pitch, etc parameters that have been set. 1 user liked this post. |
M.Mouse
2025-06-20T22:29:00 permalink Post: 11907367 |
he autopilot would NOT be engaged below 400’ (or 200’ in the 78–although I doubt anyone engages it that low. The autopilot and autothrottles are separate systems but do interact. The autothrottles typically WOULD be engaged from the start of the takeoff roll; using the TOGA levers to set takeoff thrust).
I am guessing because although I flew the 777 I never tried a low altitude capture before VNAV engaged — and it`s been a few years). But think it probably would. As one goes through 50’ LNAV engages; VNAV is normally armed prior to the EFIS check if it`s to be used (which it usually is). So in this scenario LNAV would have been engaged but since VNAV is armed but never engages my guess is that the automatics would engage in SPD/LVAV/ALT.
HOLD is present in many other regimes of flight; all it means is that the auththrottle (right now) is not controlling the throttles and they stay where they are—and the PF can move them if desired at will. Fr` instance, when descending in FLCH or even VNAV SPD the throttles will usually be in HOLD. (To me this usually meant `hold` the throttles—and tweek them in descent as required). Thrust can be modulated to adjust rate of descent (the throttles become vertical speed levers). On altitude capture in the case of FLCH or path capture in the case of VNAV SPD (in descent) the auththrottles kick in and it becomes SPD/xxx/ALT (or VPTH or VALT as the case might be).
Most everyone knew the autothrottles would not engage below 400` and that FLCH in descent at very low altitudes was not an appropriate mode — and they did not activate providing low speed protection in the case of Asiana.
Since the Asiana accident many airlines prohibit use of FLCH below 1,000' and the lowest altitude setting when using FLCH is then, of course, 1.000'
IIRC our throttles went into HOLD at 60 knots and stayed there until VNAV activated (THR REF—takeoff thrust). It was also possible that the autothrottles under some environmentals wouldn`t fully achieve takeoff thrust setting (EPR or N1 depending on which engines) and they could be manually moved in HOLD to achieve it. Although I don`t remember that as ever happening.
2 users liked this post. |
Lead Balloon
2025-06-20T22:41:00 permalink Post: 11907374 |
The excellent #724 post by user989 really should be seen as the defining statement on what is currently known.
I’d like to add a complimentary test to user989’s logic on TCMA faults. Regardless of whether the ‘aircraft on ground’ signal was incorrect after rotation it would have been correct during the takeoff roll. IF there was an unrevealed fault in a thrust lever position signal THEN why didn’t TCMA activate during taxiing or the takeoff roll? Such a fault occurring spontaneously in just the few seconds after rotation is way way down the probability table. Such a fault occurring spontaneously on both separate (think ETOPS) engine control systems is surely vanishingly unlikely. They may be out there but you’d have to ask if TCMA is implicated where are the lower consequence precursor events in the 787 fleet? These might be spurious TCMA action on one engine or faults with ‘aircraft on ground’ found during maintenance or engines not responding to thrust lever position and so on. Change Analysis would ask what happened differently in the few seconds after rotation on this flight that separates it from all other 787 takeoffs and why at that particular time ?The interim report will provide some answers until then please let’s confine this thread to fact based technical discussion and debate. Re-reading this I did briefly consider suggesting engine overshoot of thrust lever positions and FADEC shut down on N1 overspeed but that leaves a lot of WHY and WHY both engines questions so I dismissed it. But I'd posit these points (without making any assertions about the probabilities of the scenarios). There is a flaw in the logic arising from the categorical assertion that the 'aircraft on ground' signal 'would have been correct' during the take off roll: "Regardless of whether the ‘aircraft on ground’ signal was incorrect after rotation it would have been correct during the takeoff roll. IF there was an unrevealed fault in a thrust lever position signal THEN why didn’t TCMA activate during taxiing or the takeoff roll?" What IF the 'aircraft on ground' signal into the TCMA systems was INcorrect during taxi and the take off roll, thus disabling the TCMA functionality during that phase of the flight, making no difference in any event because the engines were operating normally in accordance with the thrust lever settings? In that case, any error in, for example, the thrust lever signals and engine signals to the TCMAs would not have had any consequence. Maybe the signal reversed and stayed INcorrect after take-off. Of course, that's why we are all craving to find out from what source/s the TCMAs get the 'on ground/in air' input/s and what other systems use the same source/s. And I reiterate the point that the TCMA is "just software". I haven't seen anyone dispute the suggestion that the thing 'common' to all 4 channels of the TCMA is 4 copies of software. In the earlier thread there was a statement about the 'obsession' of some with TCMA. I'm not 'obsessed' with it, but confess a prejudice towards trying to find a cause that is not a result of crew error. I therefore also have an attraction towards fuel contamination, but have difficulty in believing that fuel contamination would result in such a 'clean', immediate and simultaneous reduction in thrust from both engines after they'd operated normally during the take off roll. 1 user liked this post. |
Abbas Ibn Firnas
2025-06-30T13:32:00 permalink Post: 11913628 |
Thank you for that answer, edge cases do abound in complex systems, but would not moving the throttles forward by hand (as the thrust was beginning to reduce {for that strange reason}) overcome that and restore thrust?
(As I don't fly the 787, I may be missing something basic on how the systems work). THRUST Asymmetry PROTECTION. "For an engine-out condition, Thrust Asymmetry Protection (TAP) reduces thrust on the operating engine to ensure there is sufficient rudder for directional control. TAP reduces thrust when the airspeed decreases below approximately V2 on a takeoff or below approximately VREF on a go-around. Once speed is increased above V2/VREF, TAP increases thrust." From what we know so far, it does seem the engines were not producing sufficient thrust, during a period when it would also be crucial to maintain electrical output for the electro-hydraulic systems and critical electrical loads. Reduced electrical output could explain the failure of the gear to complete retraction, maybe caused by a generator failing at the worst possible moment. If there was an EFATO, the ability of the remaining generators to provide sufficient power might become questionable, as is highlighted with the load shedding system. Other features which are unique to the 787 could be contributing factors in explaining the accident. It is known the 787 will generally employ an extended take-off roll, and a relatively higher V1 and Vr, and also climb out less steeply than other aircraft. Using more of the runway would reduce the margin for aborted take offs. With the evident lack of thrust early in the climb out, and failure to retract the gear, if V2 had not been maintained, the TAP system would have reduced thrust even further. Manually increasing thrust will be inhibited. |
Chiefttp
2025-06-30T13:40:00 permalink Post: 11913636 |
I’m a 767 Pilot, so I’m not sure if this applies exactly to the 787. Referring to Loose Rivets post mentioning a longer than usual takeoff run, perhaps a scenario I’ve seen in simulator sessions may have occurred. On the 767 we have a Thrust Mode Selection Panel (TMSP). To demonstrate a potential error that could occur, an Instructor would select “ Climb thrust” on the TMSP instead of a takeoff thrust setting prior to takeoff. This can inadvertantly happen. In any event, if the crew mistakenly took off in a Climb thrust instead of a takeoff thrust, the takeoff roll will be much longer. With the high temperature conditions that day, the climb out would have been anemic, possibly prompting the crew to believe there was an engine thrust issue. In the simulators, when this issue was demonstrated, most crews didn’t realize what was happening and continued the takeoff anyway resulting in tail strikes, and or very sluggish climb performance. There are protections to avoid this, but the insidious nature of this scenario has caught many a crew.
4 users liked this post. |
Sailvi767
2025-06-30T18:57:00 permalink Post: 11913849 |
I found descriptions on the systems of the 787 were easily discovered online, and while I have no hands-on experience of aircraft related matters, I do have experience in wider electrical theory and maintenance.
THRUST Asymmetry PROTECTION. "For an engine-out condition, Thrust Asymmetry Protection (TAP) reduces thrust on the operating engine to ensure there is sufficient rudder for directional control. TAP reduces thrust when the airspeed decreases below approximately V2 on a takeoff or below approximately VREF on a go-around. Once speed is increased above V2/VREF, TAP increases thrust." From what we know so far, it does seem the engines were not producing sufficient thrust, during a period when it would also be crucial to maintain electrical output for the electro-hydraulic systems and critical electrical loads. Reduced electrical output could explain the failure of the gear to complete retraction, maybe caused by a generator failing at the worst possible moment. If there was an EFATO, the ability of the remaining generators to provide sufficient power might become questionable, as is highlighted with the load shedding system. Other features which are unique to the 787 could be contributing factors in explaining the accident. It is known the 787 will generally employ an extended take-off roll, and a relatively higher V1 and Vr, and also climb out less steeply than other aircraft. Using more of the runway would reduce the margin for aborted take offs. With the evident lack of thrust early in the climb out, and failure to retract the gear, if V2 had not been maintained, the TAP system would have reduced thrust even further. Manually increasing thrust will be inhibited. 2 users liked this post. |