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| 1stspotter
July 16, 2025, 18:42:00 GMT permalink Post: 11923925 |
Incorrect Locking
The spring function is still active, but due to the displaced locking ring, the tab does not engage with the detent. The two conditions for the switch remain unaltered - Cutoff / Run, but the Run position is not gated, held in position. Edit; "Can these switches be carelessly set in the on position but not fully locked? I am thinking whether it is possible for the switches to be electrically on, but not mechanically locked." Yes Also Air India did not find any faulty switches. https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...es-2025-07-16/ The discussion on faulty switches is a red herring. One of the pilots moved the switches. Either deliberately or by mistake. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches Fuel Cutoff Switches (detent) |
| 1stspotter
July 17, 2025, 11:40:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924331 |
That's better than being at the mercy of speculation from the AAIB.
It's easy to go, "it must be suicide, there's nothing else in the preliminary report that explains it". Well, the things that might turn out to be a factor are not in the preliminary report because they're still being investigated. Fuel samples. The switches themselves, which suffered fire damage. A thorough understanding what can cause the transitions logged on the EAFR, and what did cause them. YOU are one of the sources of "speculation of unknown origin". Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) EAFR Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches Preliminary Report RUN/CUTOFF |
| 1stspotter
July 17, 2025, 11:45:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924333 |
Extract from a Telegraph article this morning, is this relevant ?.
Indian media, however, reported that investigators were examining potential electrical and digital faults that could have triggered \x93uncommanded\x94 actions. \x93The probe will ascertain the possibility of an \x91uncommanded transition\x92 of the fuel control switches to the cut-off mode seconds after the lift-off,\x94 an official aware of the investigation was reported to have said. Just hours before take-off, a pilot flying the same aircraft from Delhi to Ahmedabad noted in the technical log a \x93stabiliser position transducer defect\x94, the newspaper said. The stabiliser position transducer is a sensor that controls the up and down movement of the aircraft\x92s nose, and transmits the data to flight control systems. The official said the malfunction was checked and the engineer did the troubleshooting. \x93The malfunction is a critical issue as it can trigger incorrect responses in flight control, including unintended fuel cut-off signal,\x94 the official was quoted as saying. The same applies to former pilots https://feitoffake.wordpress.com/202...room-in-india/ Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Fuel Cutoff Switches |
| 1stspotter
July 17, 2025, 12:14:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924351 |
WSJ being leaked to again and they are not even trying to hide the fact that it is US officials doing the leaking as with the leaks in the days before the preliminary report
it\x92s hard to justify this and it does just make the AAIB\x92s job more difficult, would the NTSB appreciate Indian entities leaking to the Indian media before a preliminary and then final report? im not saying it\x92s correct but it does only fuel the simmering Indian (domestic) audience\x92s views of a US/Boeing \x91coverup\x92 what new details were actually revealed here, it didn\x92t counter the facts laid out by the AAIB prelim at all so it\x92s not like we can claim the AAIB is covering up and the US has to issue counter factuals (as with the China Eastern 737) It is important to know who asked ' why did you cutoff'. Because it confirms that captain, who had both hands free, set both switches to CUTOFF for no reason. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) Engine Failure (All) Engine Shutdown Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches NTSB Pilot "Why did you cut off" Preliminary Report RUN/CUTOFF Wall Street Journal |
| 1stspotter
July 17, 2025, 12:19:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924358 |
Also it would be the first time a pilot does not recognize this ghost movement and needs 10 seconds before he sets the switches back to RUN. It would be the first time such switches remain in RUN even after the forces of a crash. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): RUN/CUTOFF |
| 1stspotter
July 17, 2025, 13:16:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924400 |
Your argument goes like this:
1) There was a switch failure on a 737 that disabled the gate mechanism. 2) The switch on the 787 is of similar construction. 3) Therefore, it is impossible that the accident 787 had a switch issue. Do you understand that this is not logical? And then you go on to cajole people who look forward to the AAIB thoroughly examining the switches they have in front of them, to generate actual evidence on whether these specific switches have an issue or not. I agree that it is unlikely that the switches have an issue, but I still want the AAIB to look, so they can state it as a fact, instead of relying on guesswork. The faulty switch on same Boeing 737 aircraft is a red herring. It has nothing to do with the Boeing 787. This aircraft has a different type of switch (see partnumber). There is not a single issue ever reported. There was not a single issue found after the crash. It is extremely clear both switches were set to CUTOFF by someone in the cockpit. At the worst possible moment just after liftoff. While there was no reason at all to touch these switches. There was thrust, there was no engine failure, there was no agreement between both pilots to set both switches to CUTOFF. Because why would one of the pilots ask why the other set to cutoff. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) Engine Failure (All) Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches RUN/CUTOFF |
| 1stspotter
July 17, 2025, 15:23:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924461 |
Why would AAIB include that red herring in the prelim when they had the switches in their possession and included pics of them in the report? I have to admit that I took a bite of that herring and still have a nagging issue with myself not being able to see a dog on the lower part of the left switch. But I'm more inclined to think badly of the AAIB for including the herring.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin |
| 1stspotter
July 17, 2025, 15:39:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924475 |
An interesting quotation from this: "She highlighted a similar incident during which one of the engines suddenly shut down midflight on an All Nippon Airways Boeing 787 during its final approach to Osaka, Japan, in 2019.
Investigators later found that the aircraft’s software had mistakenly interpreted the plane as being on the ground, triggering the thrust control malfunction accommodation system, which automatically moved the fuel switch from “run” to “cutoff” without any action from the pilots." Is it also interesting that this incident occurred at the time of ground-to-air transition? The incident she refers to involved the uncommanded shutdown of both engines ***** after landing ****. So not during the approach. https://avherald.com/h?article=4c2fe53a The fuel control switches of Air India 171 transitioned seconds after liftoff from RUN to CUTOFF. There is not a single source which states the fuel control switches of the ANA B787 moved to CUTOFF. It is simply impossible that software moves these switches. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches RUN/CUTOFF |
| 1stspotter
July 17, 2025, 16:17:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924501 |
She told utter nonsense. This is the person who said the stuff quoted below. I hope you agree with me the ANA B787 uncommanded dual engine shutdown in 2019 *** after landing *** had nothing to do with a ' similar fuel cut-off malfunction during final approach". There is also no Boeing software issue in the case of AI171. The ANA B787 ASN wrote: A Boeing 787-8 of All Nippon Airways operating ANA/NH985 from Tokyo/Haneda to Osaka/Itami stuck on runway 32L while landing at Itami due to sudden shut-down of both engines after Thrust Reverser actuation. Ms Schiavo said: "As fresh scrutiny surrounds Boeing after the Air India AI 171 crash, aviation expert Mary Schiavo reveals that a similar fuel cut-off malfunction plagued a Japanese Boeing 787 in 2019 \x97 with pilots never touching the controls. Investigators now face mounting questions on why warnings were missed and why Boeing\x92s software may still pose a global threat." and Mary Schiavo revealed that a near-identical incident occurred in 2019 on a Boeing 787 operated by ANA during its final approach to Osaka. \x93The investigation revealed the plane software made the 787 think it was on the ground, and the Thrust Control Malfunction Accommodation (TCMA) system cut the fuel to the engines,\x94 she said. On that occasion, both engines shut down simultaneously, but the crew landed safely. The Japanese aviation authority and Boeing traced the incident to a software fault, not human error. ANA\x92s Dreamliner, carrying 118 people, had to be towed off the runway. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AI171 Dual Engine Failure Engine Failure (All) Engine Shutdown Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Fuel Cutoff Switches Human Factors |
| 1stspotter
July 17, 2025, 16:20:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924504 |
Schiavo blames Boeing software. \x91Pilots Didn\x92t Touch It\x92: Air India Crash Mirrors 2019 Dreamliner Fuel Cut-Off , Expert Says Boeing Software To Blame Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Fuel Cutoff Switches |
| 1stspotter
July 17, 2025, 18:26:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924560 |
Totally wrong.
The TCMA shuts down one or more engines - but it doesn't move the switches to cut-off in any magical way. TCMA directly operates the fuel valves - but the switches stay on. Of course there is no entry for the switches being operated on the EAFR when TCMA shuts down an engine! Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): EAFR Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches |