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87guy
June 15, 2025, 14:35:00 GMT permalink Post: 11902509 |
My first post here...I feel I need to, due to some posts I have read. As a 787 pilot who has flown Embraer, Airbus, 767 and the 787-8/-9, I am saddened by many of the posts on this thread.
Some of you should be ashamed. Blaming the pilots before anyone has any idea what transpired.Short takeoff, improper flap/no flap setting, retracting the flaps instead of the gear, shutting down the wrong engine. In ANY other situation these actions would be laughable, and an insult to proffessional pilots the world over. Some commenting about the flaps even after pictures have shown that the flaps are extended. Also numerous people posting regarding shutting the wrong engine being shut down without any evidence to back this up. Videos clearly showing that the RAT was extended indicates that something very serious/catastrophic happened prior to this hull loss. People...this is the Proffessional Pilot's Rumour Network...Not the National Enquirer!!! I would urge everyone to WAIT for the report. Unbelievable. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Engine Failure (All) RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) |
87guy
June 29, 2025, 13:20:00 GMT permalink Post: 11913031 |
I got the idea that with no (or very little) thrust, and with the aircraft falling, the pilot (may have) realized that he was in
out of control flight
, and falling.
In a pedantic sense: if you make control inputs, and the aircraft won't or can't respond to them, you are in out of control flight . The whole event happened pretty quickly. How far into "we are doomed" that his senses told him they were can have informed his decision to say something about it. (the human mind is an interesting thing). There's also the matter of temporal distortion which can happen during stress or high adrenalin events. (I experienced that during the course of an aircraft accident: not on topic for this thread). As to conformance with ICAO, not all investigations make good on that.
Spoiler
I sincerely hope that this one does. (Note: some of what I refer to as out of control flight seems to be called upset in commercial transport jargon). Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): ICAO |
87guy
June 30, 2025, 16:32:00 GMT permalink Post: 11913751 |
Richard Godfrey has completely ignored that fact that the speed was reducing all the way down the descent. He has hypothesised a steady descent angle at around 3.5:1 and therefore concluded that one engine had stopped and the other was on ~10,000lb of thrust because, at the initial speed they needed that thrust to counter the drag. But the AOA clearly increases markedly as the aircraft approaches the ground, which means that the speed was reducing significantly.
As for statements such as: They make me take that whole spiel with a grain of salt. In a nutshell, he's saying they had an engine failure before rotation, then got all the way up to 300-odd feet (following what looked to me like an initially standard low-angle/flat 787 takeoff, then ran out of puff and crashed with the other engine running at 15-18% Thrust. Pure speculation aka WAG. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Engine Failure (All) Self Proclaimed Experts |
87guy
June 30, 2025, 16:34:00 GMT permalink Post: 11913753 |
Subjects: None |
87guy
July 01, 2025, 13:57:00 GMT permalink Post: 11914288 |
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Generators/Alternators |
87guy
July 09, 2025, 12:33:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918362 |
Yes, the procedure is the same with the GEnx engines. No difference between the two when it comes to that situation.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): GEnx (ALL) |
87guy
July 15, 2025, 16:42:00 GMT permalink Post: 11923075 |
Come on... I fly the 787, and there is absolutely no way you can hit the fuel cutoff switches by accident when selecting the gear switch, for either pilot. This is absolutely ridiculous.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Fuel Cutoff Switches |
87guy
July 17, 2025, 12:47:00 GMT permalink Post: 11924381 |
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I have not posted on here in many years, but I feel compelled to do so now. I am a current 787 pilot and I have previously flown most Boeing types and an Airbus too. I also have an extensive background and qualifications in human factors, training and assessment. Before anybody reads any further, perhaps acquaint yourself with the notion of Occam's razor. That is, the simplest explanation is the most likely explanation. I was certain that after the preliminary report was released the preposterous conspiracy theories would finally cease, but no! It's 2025 and humans can no longer help themselves. In my opinion the captain committed suicide here. Simple.
To those suggesting an electrical phantom turned the fuel control switches off without them moving: no. Ask yourselves this: what made one pilot (PF and F/O in my opinion) ask the other "why did you cut off?" Firstly, some context. The 787 fuel control switches make a VERY distinct metallic *CLICK* sound as they are operated. EVERY 787 pilot knows it and won't forget it. It is audible even at high thrust settings owing to the 787's exceptionally quiet engines and cockpit. After rotation the pilot flying is fixated on the HUD; rotating towards the TOGA reference line (~12 degrees pitch attitude) and putting the flight path vector over the flight guidance cue. One hand would be on the control column and the other on the thrust levers. Alternatively he could have had both hands on the control column. In either scenario, the pilot flying's (again, my opinion the F/O's) inboard arm would block his peripheral view (he's focused on the HUD, remember) of the center pedestal and the fuel control switches. HE WOULD NOT SEE THE PM TURN THE FUEL CONTROL SWITCHES OFF. Ipso facto. We know the F/O was PF from the report. If the F/O stopped flying the aircraft and reached down to move the FCS from cutoff to run the captain would've plainly seen the whole thing. I can't imagine "why did you cutoff?" would be his words of choice! More like "WTF ARE YOU DOING?!?" More to the point, if the PF (F/O) did stop flying and reach down to cut one engine off, the captain would have had time to either stop him flicking the second FCS off or at least quickly flick them both back to run and potentially save the day. This plainly did not happen. So it was almost certainly the PM (Capt) that moved the fuel control switches. So what would make the PF ask the PM "why did you cut off?" if he couldn't see it happen? You would never assume with a loss of thrust that the switches had been turned off. Never. It's not a procedure. It's not a thing. Bird strike? Sure. Fuel Contam? Maybe. But the point is, in the heat of battle at 150 odd feet, you'd never jump to the conclusion that the fuel control switches were off. Never. So what triggered the PF asking the PM why he cutoff? Because he HEARD the fuel control switches move from run to cutoff, that is why. He heard those distinctive *CLICK* sounds (and yes, you can easily flick them both in less than a second FWIW) followed by the engines immediately rolling back. He would then have looked down at the switches and noticed they were in cutoff. The point to be made here is that the switches were moved by the captain. They made their distinct sound. There were no phantoms. They cannot move on their own. They didn't simultaneously fail. This drew the PF's attention away from flying and triggered the question "why did you cutoff"? Inadvertent selection of the wrong switches? No. The PM was a training captain with thousands of hours experience on the jet. I asked one of our most experienced examiners how many times he'd seen that done. The answer was "zero". Even the stab switches next to them. They're red, guarded and are of a completely different shape and operation. Gear or flap? Come on. I think we're starting to stretch things a bit now. EVEN IF it was inadvertent switching. The INSTANT you'd made that error, you'd go "oh whoops", and flick them back to run. I know startle... I teach it. This is different. You don't flick the fuel control switches off, hear the engines roll back and sit there wondering what happened for 10 seconds AFTER THE F/O JUST ASKED YOU IF YOU CUTOFF! You did something that had an instant effect on the flight. The report indicates that "why did you cutoff" was asked just after both engines rolled back. But it took another 10 seconds to flick the FCS' back to run. If it was inadvertent, the instant the other pilot called out your error you'd correct it. The report makes it clear that there was 10 seconds between that happening. 10 seconds is a LIFETIME in that situation. The training captain knew what he was doing. He only switched the FCS' back to run once he knew it was moot. So, why did he respond that he didn't move the switches? As per other input from people on here, when people are suicidal they often want to throw authorities off their trail. Or maybe he wanted to confuse the F/O so he didn't flick them back to run himself, or to just buy himself more time while the F/O tried to wrap his head around things? Maybe he didn't want the F/O to die knowing it was a suicide mission. Maybe we'll find out more in the final report or police investigation if things proceed that way. Maybe we'll never know. I acknowledge that this is my opinion and of course there could be things we don't yet know about, but I must say I'm surprised that some of the theories on this professional pilot forum are no more coherent or logical than those being sprouted on social media. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches Human Factors Pilot "Why did you cut off" Preliminary Report RUN/CUTOFF Switch Guards TOGA |
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