June 12, 2025, 22:05:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11899779
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Fuel (All)
June 14, 2025, 06:43:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11901167
Maybe mentioned before, maybe not.
Airplane landed 11:18 and took off 13:38, with some taxi time at both ends that\x92s about 2hrs at the gate with ramp temperatures likely about 40C.
I know there is a brake MEL/DMI that requires gear to remain down for 2 min.
Perhaps a reason for the gear down situation.
Airplane landed 11:18 and took off 13:38, with some taxi time at both ends that\x92s about 2hrs at the gate with ramp temperatures likely about 40C.
I know there is a brake MEL/DMI that requires gear to remain down for 2 min.
Perhaps a reason for the gear down situation.
Subjects: None
June 14, 2025, 06:49:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11901170
The Qatar incident in Miami is reminiscent.
https://dohanews.co/report-qatar-airways-fires-pilots-involved-in-miami-takeoff-incident/
That plus a possibly inadvertent flap retraction which above 400\x92 will trigger a reduction to CLB thrust which is maybe the reason for the \x91thrust loss\x92 call.
Some previous flights show a backtrack and some do not.
Unknown how accurate that flight tracker data is.
Subjects: None
June 14, 2025, 14:05:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11901514
Subjects: None
June 14, 2025, 14:58:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11901550
Just to throw another wrench in the gears, the airplane flew in so it should fly out.
Except it didn\x92t.
We can over analyze for another 1000 replies, fact remains the airplane flew in without major issues and spend two hours on the ground at the gate.
Catastrophic failure just doesn\x92t randomly happen.
The elefant in the room is Boeing.
If this turns out to be an airplane issue rather than a crew action it may be the end of them.
You can\x92t have a plastic electric airplane where the engines randomly stop.
Auto throttle thrust reduction can be perceived as power loss.
Except it didn\x92t.
We can over analyze for another 1000 replies, fact remains the airplane flew in without major issues and spend two hours on the ground at the gate.
Catastrophic failure just doesn\x92t randomly happen.
The elefant in the room is Boeing.
If this turns out to be an airplane issue rather than a crew action it may be the end of them.
You can\x92t have a plastic electric airplane where the engines randomly stop.
Auto throttle thrust reduction can be perceived as power loss.
Subjects: None
June 14, 2025, 15:50:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11901591
If it was a software fault or even strongly suspected there would be a worldwide 787 groundstop. Or at least a urgent engineering works package.
investigators on the ground likely know the cause already. Engine manufacturers also remotely monitor all engine parameters worldwide so they\x92d also know.
investigators on the ground likely know the cause already. Engine manufacturers also remotely monitor all engine parameters worldwide so they\x92d also know.
GE already knows and so does Air India.
For the SLF, GE will call my employer and paraphrasing here: this airframe that engine needs attention because of the following.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Parameters
June 14, 2025, 16:40:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11901641
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...campaign=cppst
He had 8200 hrs since they switched to digital records.
Subjects: None
June 19, 2025, 01:04:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11905646
If:
Then Air India can have an accident on take off without any nefariousness or hidden design flaws.
This accident has the full attention of
1,189 Dreamliners have been delivered.
There have been no worldwide or even regional groundings.
No Emergency AD\x92s, no required inspections.
If a hidden hardware or software issue would be suspected there would have been a response by FAA/EASA already.
The silence is deafening\x85and telling.
- Asiana can crash on approach and landing (Asiana 214)
- Emirates can crash on a go-around (Emirates 521)
- Emirates can almost crash on take off (Emirates 231)
- United can almost crash on take off ( UA 1722)
Then Air India can have an accident on take off without any nefariousness or hidden design flaws.
This accident has the full attention of
- Boeing
- GE
- FAA
- NTSB
- EASA
1,189 Dreamliners have been delivered.
There have been no worldwide or even regional groundings.
No Emergency AD\x92s, no required inspections.
If a hidden hardware or software issue would be suspected there would have been a response by FAA/EASA already.
The silence is deafening\x85and telling.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): FAA NTSB
June 22, 2025, 22:38:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11908868
One of the primary laws of computer science :
BS in = BS out
The lengthy take off roll is not in itself evidence as takeoff performance is optimized for specific runways but it could be an indicator of incorrect data.
The chances of the perceived simultaneous power loss are so remote that a power reduction is much more likely.
That could be again an indicator of incorrect data
Incorrect altitude on the MCP for instance.
An Emirates 777 almost crashed on take off but was recovered by the crew.
https://www.aviation-accidents.net/e...-flight-ek231/
An unexpected thrust reduction to idle could be very disorienting and cause automation confusion even with an experienced crew.
"Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity"
Hitcham\x92s razor
Occam\x92s razor
BS in = BS out
The lengthy take off roll is not in itself evidence as takeoff performance is optimized for specific runways but it could be an indicator of incorrect data.
The chances of the perceived simultaneous power loss are so remote that a power reduction is much more likely.
That could be again an indicator of incorrect data
Incorrect altitude on the MCP for instance.
An Emirates 777 almost crashed on take off but was recovered by the crew.
https://www.aviation-accidents.net/e...-flight-ek231/
An unexpected thrust reduction to idle could be very disorienting and cause automation confusion even with an experienced crew.
"Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity"
Hitcham\x92s razor
Occam\x92s razor
Subjects: None
June 30, 2025, 23:09:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11913939
Except:
The longer this takes the more crew actions or lack thereof become the centerpiece of the investigation.
More then 1,100 787\x92s have been delivered and flying the last 14 years.
Hundreds fly every single day.
Not a whisper from any of the aviation authorities worldwide. No emergency AD\x92s..nothing.
- A \x91quick turnaround\x92 of a passenger aircraft is 2.5-3hrs
- Fuel in CDG is no doubt more expensive then at DEL. Also a crew doesn\x92t just take extra fuel without dispatchers concurring
- If anything it may have carried a little extra from DEL.
- Turnaround was 2:38 or close to it.
- Engines run on their own tank for take off. Two different tanks with the same contamination would be exceptionally rare.
- A complete electrical failure due to some massive event combined with two tanks contaminated would be akin to a lightning strike on a lottery winner.
The longer this takes the more crew actions or lack thereof become the centerpiece of the investigation.
More then 1,100 787\x92s have been delivered and flying the last 14 years.
Hundreds fly every single day.
Not a whisper from any of the aviation authorities worldwide. No emergency AD\x92s..nothing.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Electrical Failure
July 12, 2025, 04:19:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11920176
It\x92s fascinating to read all the what-ifs, some even more delusional then others.
- There are no cup holders close to the fuel cutoff switches
- We don\x92t hand each other tea at rotation.
- There is no g-force during rotation, we don\x92t jank the airplane of the ground. It\x92s a 3 second rotation to approximately 15 degrees.
- No worn switch would \x93fall over into cutoff\x94 when pitching up.
- The trim cutout switches are totally different design and are checked during the cockpit setup
- The PF places both hands on the yoke at V1 and looks outside and inside at the speed and attitude information throughout V1\x85Rotate\x85Positive rate\x85gear up.
- In the simulator, the instructor programs a V1 cut at their control station.
- The CA hands are on the thrust levers and guarding the yoke until the automated V1 call then the thrust levers hand gets pulled off to avoid the temptation of a reject above V1.
- Headsets are on separate channels on the cockpit voice recorder.
- The Indian authorities already know who said what and when.
- Cockpit cameras would have never prevented this, it would have only shown who pulled the switches.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Fuel Cutoff Switches V1
July 12, 2025, 04:35:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11920187
Any EICAS message would have been recorded.
Straight from the report:
\x93At this stage of investigation, there are no recommended actions to B787-8 and/or GE
GEnx-1B engine operators and manufacturers.\x94
GEnx-1B engine operators and manufacturers.\x94
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): EICAS
July 12, 2025, 06:30:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11920247
*
I mean, possibly the Captain decided, since he had a young pilot flying, that he would try to avoid any potential Stabiliser problems from startling his junior pilot by pre-emptively cutting off the Stab control while they were still good. And didn't announce the intention because he didn't want to distract the PF, or make him even more nervous. Stuff like this does happen.
If he happened, as you say, to flip the Fuel Cutoffs instead, that's all that would show on the FDR.
I mean, possibly the Captain decided, since he had a young pilot flying, that he would try to avoid any potential Stabiliser problems from startling his junior pilot by pre-emptively cutting off the Stab control while they were still good. And didn't announce the intention because he didn't want to distract the PF, or make him even more nervous. Stuff like this does happen.
If he happened, as you say, to flip the Fuel Cutoffs instead, that's all that would show on the FDR.
A status message is the lowest level message, it\x92s a notification that\x92s all. Doesn\x92t come with an associated checklist.
Simple write up in the aircraft maintenance logbook at block in from the previous flight.
Maintenance will run a check and clear the fault and clear the message.
You certainly wouldn\x92t use the stabilizer cutout switches for a software fault that has been cleared and you certainly wouldn\x92t do this at rotation.
Its just nonsense.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): FDR
July 12, 2025, 07:40:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11920291
The cutoff switch movement doesn\x92t look like a procedural error in isolation , more like a symptom of
heat, stress, and cognitive load
catching up at the worst possible moment. Muscle memory kicks in, hands move before thought does.
At Vr, you\x92re saturated \x97 hot cockpit, high workload, maybe a tech snag pre-departure. You\x92re doing everything right, until your hand isn\x92t.
It doesn\x92t take malice or incompetence. Just a second of invisible overload , and the wrong switch moves.
At Vr, you\x92re saturated \x97 hot cockpit, high workload, maybe a tech snag pre-departure. You\x92re doing everything right, until your hand isn\x92t.
It doesn\x92t take malice or incompetence. Just a second of invisible overload , and the wrong switch moves.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches Muscle Memory
July 13, 2025, 00:16:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11920954
The throttle quadrant was also replaced.
. The scrutiny of maintenance records
revealed that the throttle control module was replaced on VT-ANB in 2019 and 2023.
However, the reason for the replacement was not linked to the fuel control switch. There has
been no defect reported pertaining to the fuel control switch since 2023 on VT-ANB.
revealed that the throttle control module was replaced on VT-ANB in 2019 and 2023.
However, the reason for the replacement was not linked to the fuel control switch. There has
been no defect reported pertaining to the fuel control switch since 2023 on VT-ANB.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): FAA Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Fuel Cutoff Switches SAIB NM-18-33
July 13, 2025, 02:34:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11920992
As far as the \x93object falling off the glare shield in a rotating manner as to hit two switches a second apart\x94 theory supporters\x85..this is getting ridiculous.
Google is your friend.
The glareshield is angled steeply towards the windshield. Anything left there can roll almost out of reach\x85.towards the windshield.
Yes but what if? NO
Have a look at a crew taking off in a 787.
Handpositions and callouts are (almost) universal in this industry.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4e5JTchiajA&pp=ygUaQm9laW5nIDc4NyBjb2NrcGl0IHRha2VvZ mbSBwkJ2AkBhyohjO8%3D
Google is your friend.
The glareshield is angled steeply towards the windshield. Anything left there can roll almost out of reach\x85.towards the windshield.
Yes but what if? NO
Have a look at a crew taking off in a 787.
Handpositions and callouts are (almost) universal in this industry.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4e5JTchiajA&pp=ygUaQm9laW5nIDc4NyBjb2NrcGl0IHRha2VvZ mbSBwkJ2AkBhyohjO8%3D
Last edited by B2N2; 13th July 2025 at 02:45 .
Subjects: None
July 13, 2025, 07:00:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11921069
A no blame culture?
How likely would it be that an inadvertent small mistake was made in response to a major distraction, immediately recognized then heroically attempted to be corrected?
Because that\x92s likely how the final report will read.
Subjects: None
July 13, 2025, 07:47:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11921097
I\x92m 100% with you on this. Back on the original thread, whilst everyone was distracted by some extremely unlikely technical scenarios, I\x92d predicted that although it was unthinkable, the most likely cause was manually switching both fuel control switches\x85
Plane crash near Ahmedabad..
Seeing that the gear remained down after liftoff, there was CVR confusion after the event, and there was an attempt to rectify the situation\x85. I\x92m now thinking aviation is witnessing its most bizarre action-slip it\x92s ever seen and we\x92ll learn that the human automatic system is capable of making the most inappropriate and illogical responses to a given situation. I suspect fatigue and the captains sim experience of flicking switches plays a part.
Seeing that the gear remained down after liftoff, there was CVR confusion after the event, and there was an attempt to rectify the situation\x85. I\x92m now thinking aviation is witnessing its most bizarre action-slip it\x92s ever seen and we\x92ll learn that the human automatic system is capable of making the most inappropriate and illogical responses to a given situation. I suspect fatigue and the captains sim experience of flicking switches plays a part.
Even Indian sources are now reporting on the possibility of intent.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-...-probe-8864239
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): CVR
July 13, 2025, 17:21:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11921462
A purely speculative technical question.
If you were faced with that scenario (assuming accidental cut-off of both engines) if you shoved the nose down and retracted the gear would it buy you enough time for at least one engine to have come back online sufficiently to save the day or was a crash innevitable?
If you were faced with that scenario (assuming accidental cut-off of both engines) if you shoved the nose down and retracted the gear would it buy you enough time for at least one engine to have come back online sufficiently to save the day or was a crash innevitable?
Given a different set of circumstances at some point the situation is unrecoverable and you become \x93dead man walking\x94.
Stalls, spins, unusual attitude recovery, MCAS events, they all become unrecoverable below a certain altitude.
If I had to take a guess I would say 2500-3000\x92 AGL and this could have been recoverable.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches
July 13, 2025, 18:19:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11921511
Please stop with this utter nonsense.
The throttle quadrant was replaced in 2023 for unrelated reasons. The report states so.
Crews don’t habitually places any items near those switches and ffs how would sand even get in there.
These switches were manipulated by hand and (again) even Indian media is reporting there may have been an issue with the crew.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-...-probe-8864239
The throttle quadrant was replaced in 2023 for unrelated reasons. The report states so.
Crews don’t habitually places any items near those switches and ffs how would sand even get in there.
These switches were manipulated by hand and (again) even Indian media is reporting there may have been an issue with the crew.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-...-probe-8864239
Subjects: None