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| Icarus2001
June 12, 2025, 13:53:00 GMT permalink Post: 11899230 |
I think it unlikely that the AC was in a (full) stall.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): FBW |
| Icarus2001
June 13, 2025, 00:38:00 GMT permalink Post: 11899871 |
The AC wasn't working while at the gate on the previous leg, so it may be that they APU was broken. Been on several filghts where this has occurred, so the APU presumably isn't on the MEL.
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): APU MEL |
| Icarus2001
June 13, 2025, 00:48:00 GMT permalink Post: 11899876 |
TO does seem to be very late in the takeoff role
Subjects: None |
| Icarus2001
June 13, 2025, 02:07:00 GMT permalink Post: 11899926 |
What relevance does that have to the crash? Last edited by Senior Pilot; 13th June 2025 at 02:19 . Reason: Quote Subjects: None |
| Icarus2001
June 13, 2025, 05:11:00 GMT permalink Post: 11900006 |
An engine failure just off the runway after V1 in a fully loaded 787-8 in high ambient temperatures would assuredly have a crew thinking about a "toute suite" shutdown of a misbehaving donk
This is a transport category aircraft. It will happily climb on one engine to a safe altitude where procedures are followed. There is zero evidence of any engine "failures" or shutdowns by the crew. However the gear is still down at around 500' agl. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Engine Failure (All) V1 |
| Icarus2001
June 13, 2025, 07:14:00 GMT permalink Post: 11900094 |
Generally, how long after retrieval of a Flight Data Recorder and a Cockpit Voice Recorder, can timeline data of aircraft airspeed / altitude / thrust / configuration / recordings etc, be revealed to the public?
Most authorities aim for an initial report within thirty days. If it is an aircraft fault, Air India will leak details as soon as they have them. If the data points to "whoops wrong lever" expect a dragging of feet and much wailing and gnashing of teeth from Air India. Subjects: None |
| Icarus2001
June 13, 2025, 07:50:00 GMT permalink Post: 11900127 |
Every Boeing (and Airbus) twin plus the 747-8 has a RAT -.
The Boeing 737? The Airbus 220?
Is there a reason the setting should not default after a landing to ‘Input required’?
Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): RAT (All) |
| Icarus2001
June 13, 2025, 11:55:00 GMT permalink Post: 11900413 |
The big thing to watch over the next 24 hours is whether Boeing or any B787 operators ground the fleet.
This act, or lack of this occurring will speak volumes. Subjects: None |
| Icarus2001
June 14, 2025, 05:46:00 GMT permalink Post: 11901148 |
I see that the India DGCA has gone in early with some narrative guidance and also some corporate bum steel plating.
DGCA requires inspections on all B787 aircraft before they leave India, various disparate systems, even so far as the cabin pressurisation system. Yep, that would cause a crash a minute after take off. They are carefully showing that they are DOING something even if it is mostly meaningless and more importantly they are sowing the seeds of doubt in the aircraft. This accident could not possibly be due to the action or inaction of DGCA licenced pilots. Strong move. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): DGCA |
| Icarus2001
June 14, 2025, 14:38:00 GMT permalink Post: 11901538 |
I am seeing a discussion of what occurred after the aircraft left the runway rather what may have occurred before the aircraft left the runway.
Subjects: None |
| Icarus2001
June 15, 2025, 05:02:00 GMT permalink Post: 11902106 |
I am sure that if there is any reason to suspect that a systems failure may have been a probable cause, or even contributed in any way to the accident, Boeing, GE, the FAA, or the Indian DGAC will promptly advise 787 operators.
The longer the regulators remain silent, the greater the probability that this has been caused by an operational error...
indeed, Occam\x92s razor and all that. If there was a serious design flaw, I highly doubt the fleet would still be operational. It has already been 3 days.
No evidence of RAT deployment from a poor image. No evidence of electrical failure. The teams of lawyers in the UK representing 53 grieving families will be working over the weekend to sign up said families to a class action. This is going to get messy. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Electrical Failure Engine Failure (All) FAA RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) |
| Icarus2001
June 15, 2025, 05:37:00 GMT permalink Post: 11902119 |
No evidence of RAT deployment from a poor image - There absolutely is, you're not following fully I'm afraid. There's a brilliant video by Juan Brown where he compares the sound of the plane passing with that of an American 787 on final with the RAT deployed. Identical sound
I tell you what I am watching closely, the words and subtle meaning in the press conference of Civil Aviation Minister, Shri Ram Mohan Naidu, who has set up a “special high level committee” to oversee the investigation of this “incident. A little odd given they have the DGCA and AAIB in place, dont you think? He indicates they are to report within three months. It is now 48 hours since the EAFR was recovered. A small group of people know the answer NOW. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) DGCA EAFR RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) |
| Icarus2001
June 15, 2025, 06:31:00 GMT permalink Post: 11902144 |
I guess it all depends on what you mean!
If the fuel supplies were cut off, causing the engines to stop, is that engine failure ? I'd say not, nothing wrong with the engines until they impacted the buildings etc. No evidence of RAT deployment - but you're specifically restricting "the evidence" to a blurry amateur video. That alone is not great evidence, but why does that video exist at all? When they lift the relevant section of fuselage, RAT deployment or not is going to be fairly apparent. And Circumstantial evidence is still evidence, no? No evidence of electrical failure? Do you know that from the downloaded Flight Data? There is no evidence of an electrical failure. What evidence? A surviving passenger thought he saw flickering lights? Give me a break. The word evidence in English has a very specific meaning. Look for the simplest explanation here and then ask why the worldwide B787 fleet is still flying with no urgent inspection requirements from Boeing or GE. Think about that "evidence". Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Electrical Failure Engine Failure (All) Engine Shutdown Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) |
| Icarus2001
June 15, 2025, 07:06:00 GMT permalink Post: 11902171 |
If the aircraft had flaps deployed (the crash site photos look like it), flight controls working (no indications they weren't), and the thrust levers pushed full forwards, there is very very little that will cause it to sink other than lack of thrust.
For the team pointing to the RAT out as a failure indicator, it could have been deployed by the crew after the initial reduction in climb performance. I am not convinced it is deployed but it really does not make a convincing argument for any type of failure. For the children on holiday, yes I fly transport category jets, current on two types. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Dual Engine Failure Engine Failure (All) RAT (All) |
| Icarus2001
June 15, 2025, 07:57:00 GMT permalink Post: 11902205 |
The better quality video does show something. It certainly could be the RAT. Automatic or manual deployment?
Assuming GE receive data from these engines in flight, a massive failure would prompt a swift communication from GE. Or a massive electrical issue could put Boeing on edge and also prompt urgent inspections on their aircraft. Since here we are two days after the EAFR was found then either both the aircraft manufacturer and the engine manufacturer know they are off the hook. That can only be for one of two reasons. They know there was a maintenance issue with this aircraft ( no IFE and call buttons?) or they know it was a handling error. Of course, tonight we may get urgent bulletins from Boeing or GE but the longer that does not happen, as Bloggs wisely stated, then we are left with a grim reality. Send in the clowns. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): EAFR Electrical Failure RAT (All) |
| Icarus2001
June 15, 2025, 13:25:00 GMT permalink Post: 11902471 |
I don't see how they'd be able to say so with confidence after just a few days. Surely they'd need to review logs, do some lab analysis, etc for that?
The rest is now narrative management, damage control and pass the liability parcel. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): CVR |
| Icarus2001
June 15, 2025, 13:42:00 GMT permalink Post: 11902480 |
Could it be that "No power" may have meant the whole cockpit went dark? ie. A total electrical failure, initiating RAT deployment and apu autostart. Doesn't explain loss of thrust explicitly but if there was a massive electrical issue, and critical data was lost (thinking air/ground switch position and other fundamentals), would dual engine shutdown be a possibility? Simultaneous FADEC failure? Exceptionally remote possibility perhaps, but by definition these accidents are exceptionally remote. Over to the experts on this.
The engines will just keep running despite total electrical failure. FADEC units are self powered and independent. Even a completely “dark” flight deck still has the ISIS. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Dual Engine Failure Electrical Failure Engine Failure (All) Engine Shutdown FADEC RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) |
| Icarus2001
June 16, 2025, 00:29:00 GMT permalink Post: 11903005 |
AFAIK
the 787 DFDRs have an internal battery but if the power is off to the rest of the aeroplane, what data, if any, is going to make its way to the units?
It has been established that the B787 utilises a EAFR, a combined CVR and DFDR. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): CVR DFDR EAFR MAYDAY |
| Icarus2001
June 16, 2025, 09:02:00 GMT permalink Post: 11903285 |
Why would there be any word from Boeing or GE?
If Boeing or GE had any inkling that their product killed around 270 people they would quickly order inspection of the offending item or system or quickly amend a procedure. The fact they have not done this is illuminating. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): EAFR |
| Icarus2001
June 16, 2025, 09:11:00 GMT permalink Post: 11903294 |
In summary I remain baffled by this tragic accident
Subjects: None |