Icarus2001
June 16, 2025, 09:28:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11903310

Quote:

Therefore I expect the recorder/s will only be read today or tomorrow. So "if there was a major issue they would know by now" is unlikely

My information differs to yours, We do know the EAFR was recovered on Saturday. Are you suggesting that it sat in a room for three days?

Quote:

Dual engine failure is very unlikely to occur but this seems increasingly to be the case here. Possibly there was a single engine failure followed by shutting down the remaining engine by mistake, if this happened it wouldn't be the first time.

Wow you seriously think a professional crew would shutdown an engine below 400 feet?
Is there any yaw or rudder deflection in any videos?

Last edited by Icarus2001; 16th June 2025 at 09:41 .

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Dual Engine Failure EAFR Engine Failure (All)

Icarus2001
June 13, 2025, 05:11:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11903710

Quote:

An engine failure just off the runway after V1 in a fully loaded 787-8 in high ambient temperatures would assuredly have a crew thinking about a "toute suite" shutdown of a misbehaving donk

No, no, no and again no.

This is a transport category aircraft. It will happily climb on one engine to a safe altitude where procedures are followed.

There is zero evidence of any engine "failures" or shutdowns by the crew.

However the gear is still down at around 500' agl.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Engine Failure (All) V1

Icarus2001
June 16, 2025, 00:29:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11903729

Quote:

AFAIK the 787 DFDRs have an internal battery but if the power is off to the rest of the aeroplane, what data, if any, is going to make its way to the units?

You answered your own question. The units would have had power. One pilot made a radio call so electrical power was available at the very least at emergency level.

It has been established that the B787 utilises a EAFR, a combined CVR and DFDR.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): CVR DFDR EAFR MAYDAY

Icarus2001
June 16, 2025, 09:28:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11903754

Quote:

Therefore I expect the recorder/s will only be read today or tomorrow. So "if there was a major issue they would know by now" is unlikely

My information differs to yours, We do know the EAFR was recovered on Saturday. Are you suggesting that it sat in a room for three days?

Quote:

Wow you seriously think a professional crew would shutdown an engine below 400 feet?
Is there any yaw or rudder deflection in any videos?

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Dual Engine Failure EAFR Engine Failure (All)

Icarus2001
June 17, 2025, 12:43:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904270

Quote:

The RAT provides hydraulic power only to the flight control portion of the C hydraulics

Should we talk about the RAT being an electrical generator? No? Okay then, carry on.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Generators/Alternators Hydraulic Failure (All) RAT (All) RAT (Electrical)

Icarus2001
June 17, 2025, 14:35:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904353

Quote:

We know there was likely simultaneous dual engine failure very near Vr.

We DO NOT know that. If that had occurred how did the aircraft achieve initial climb?

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Dual Engine Failure Engine Failure (All)

Icarus2001
June 18, 2025, 04:38:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904900

Quote:

But likewise, the engines can't have failed much before rotation:

No pilot is going to rotate with two engines running down. The engines were delivering thrust of some sort to at least 150’ feet or so.

The aircraft climb rate decreases, it descends, it crashes. Maybe the RAT was out. That is all we know.

Last edited by Senior Pilot; 18th June 2025 at 07:09 . Reason: Remove quote from deleted post plus throttle comment

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): RAT (All)

Icarus2001
June 18, 2025, 05:51:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904932

Quote:

I wonder if it's safe to say they have not found something obviously wrong with the aircraft, as by now, if that was the case, grounding or enhanced checks would have been announced.

That my friend is the billion dollar question. Which is the figure that the class action lawyers wrote on their whiteboard I think.

Every day that passes with no Boeing or GE bulletins reduces the chance of a design issue and suggests maintenance or operational error.

Subjects: None

Icarus2001
June 18, 2025, 13:43:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11905264

Quote:

True, but it took Boeing 4 months to ground Max 8's, three days after, and only because of, the second fatal accident.

Without wanting to go down the MCAS rabbit hole, suffice to say Boeing thought that the MCAS did what they expected. They also expected a competent crew to follow the trim runaway memory item and turn off the trim motor, some crews did not. MCAS was made the bad guy due to a single pint of failure with the probe.
That is why it took two crashes. I think if there was a design failure here we would know about it by now.

As the Zen master said, we will see.

Subjects: None

Icarus2001
June 19, 2025, 09:21:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11905858

Quote:

Air India plane crash: Black box of 787 Dreamliner to be sent to US for data recovery; ‘recorders sustained heavy damage…’

So to be clear, this was announced of Thursday 19 June. The one EAFR was recovered on Friday 13 June I believe and one on Sunday 15 June.

Seems a long while to wait to send it to the US.

Quote:

would the logic have a brain fart and revert back to HOLD?

No it would not revert back to HOLD.

Quote:

At what point before impact that power was lost, we do not know.

Someone made a radio call near the end of the flight, so some power was available.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): EAFR MAYDAY

Icarus2001
June 20, 2025, 04:45:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11906589

Quote:

it will likely require a forensic teardown of the control systems of the engine to determine what damage may have occurred before impact.

I have a more optimistic view that recovery of TWO EAFR units will mean a great deal will be known on analysis of this data.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): EAFR

Icarus2001
June 20, 2025, 09:04:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11906745

Quote:

Back in my commuter days more than one Captain at the layover hotel got a sudden call from ops that left an RJ engine running before they departed the airport

Walking away from a parked aircraft and not noticing that an engine was running? Wow, just wow. You cannot be serious.

Quote:

If the other one is severely damaged we might as well end up with NO EAFR data from the critical last part of the flight

At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, the EAFR is designed to withstand a crash and there being two helps, the fact that we can see a largely intact tail cone and stab is encouraging. There was some power as the radio was serviceable.

The EAFR will soon tell us WHAT happened but perhaps not WHY just yet.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): EAFR

Icarus2001
June 21, 2025, 01:15:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11907429

Quote:

so it's not clear who has primacy in the investigation any more.

I am not sure that is the case.

Under ICAO rules the AAIB has lead on this. It was an Indian registered aircraft that crashed in India, how could they not be?

The aviation minister ordered a “high level” investigation in to the accident. This is politics only.

Quote:

NEW DELHI, June 15 (Xinhua) -- India's federal civil aviation minister Ram Mohan Naidu Kinjarapu Saturday said keeping in view the utmost seriousness of the incident, another high-level committee has been formed to probe the deadly plane crash in the western state of Gujarat.

The committee, according to Kinjarapu, will be headed by the home secretary and will submit its report in three months.

This will make the minister feel he has control of the investigation and the narrative, in reality the EAFR data will be leaked by whichever party is in the clear.
If the aviation minister understood his portfolio he would know that the AAIB and DGCA are the accountable and responsible agencies here.

Watch carefully.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) DGCA EAFR ICAO

Icarus2001
June 21, 2025, 01:26:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11907434

Quote:

I view the MCAS events (personally) as 80% training/ORM/MX/ reaction and 20% hardware/Boeing failure (don`t mean to be callous or judgmental; Lord knows I`ve made my mistakes and am lucky to still be on the planet). While it`s culpable that Boeing never mentioned it (and that`s way wrong) it really didn`t differ from any other runaway trim scenario.

For what it is worth I completely agree with you on MCAS, a different rabbit hole I know.

Quote:

But I just can`t get my arms around (right now) how a jet fueled by the same manifold as several other jets, devoid of any other major fuel systems issues, ETOPS certified, having a relatively clean history (maintaining its ETOPS), no OTHER software bugs being reported across the fleet nor any other unscheduled or abrupt engine shutdowns—or cascading electrical failures— (operating at conditions from -40 to +45 in all weather conditions) can have both engines just quit.

Again, agreed. Which makes me more concerned that nothing has been forthcoming from either manufacturer, even insofar as a maintenance gotcha that needs to be remedied.

Subjects: None

Icarus2001
June 21, 2025, 01:45:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11907438

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrequentSLF
SLF here,

With what might be a stupid question, however let me ask.
Why the ground logic does not incorporate the wheel up command?

Because many normal functions require knowing airborne or on the ground. The most obvious being gear retraction and in-flight braking of the spinning wheels, but there’s dozens of actions dependent on WOW.

I think you missed the point of his question.

Because there are some times that the gear is left down after take-off for operational reasons. An automatic retraction is not desirable because the PF needs to know there is a positive rate of climb before calling for gear up, lest the beast settle back on to runway.

Have a look at Emirates in Dubai… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Flight_521

This was a go round accident but the positive rate principle is the same.

Subjects: None

Icarus2001
June 21, 2025, 07:20:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11907542

Quote:

Only a reset of the Altitude Module or manual override of the Auto Trust would overcome this uncommented descent.

This is not true. The AAI could be at 50 feet and a pilot can set a suitable climb attitude and push the thrust levers forward to enter a “normal” climb. The flight director would be useless at this point as it is commanding the descent.
So no, the AAI does not need to be changed to commence a climb.

Quote:

Where the meme has come from that jet pilots have to shut down engines as quickly as possible I don’t know but it is incorrect.

I completely agree. I imagine it relates to the ten minute max power limit on the live engine. Less and less relevant as the aircraft can give MCP easily. My current jet type does not have an engine failure memory item. I looked for a B787 EFATO memory item in the QRH but could not find one. Perhaps a current B787 pilot could confirm?

Last edited by Icarus2001; 21st June 2025 at 07:27 . Reason: Fat fingers.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): EFATO Engine Failure (All)

Icarus2001
June 21, 2025, 08:26:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11907575

I am only asking about an engine failure memory item. Fire, separation or severe damage being a different beast.

Are you confirming that there is no specific engine failure memory item? When safe run the QRH?

Quote:

so it would be extremely unlikely this crew actually got the stage of touching a fuel control switch.

I completely agree.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Engine Failure (All)

Icarus2001
June 21, 2025, 12:13:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11907696

Quote:

Do any of you engineers know if these engines were tested at these rather unusual atmospheric conditions of ISA+30C at 1000 hPa

Unusual atmospheric conditions? Not around the middle of the earth, every day of the week.

Subjects: None

Icarus2001
June 22, 2025, 06:23:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11908302

Constructing ever more unlikely cascading failures to fit the very few known facts is unproductive.

Of more interest to me is the lack of word on the plan to interrogate the EAFR units. Where and when?

Also that the DGCA wants THREE managers removed from their positions at Air India. Unconnected to this accident however.

Imagine Qantas being told by CASA to do a similar thing, or BA by the CAA, amazing stuff.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): DGCA EAFR

Icarus2001
June 22, 2025, 07:13:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11908312

Quote:

Another point pointing to that the aircraft did consider itself being ”In Air” is the ADS-B data sending Altitude from the first 575 feet

ADS-B sends altitude on the ground as well, at sea level, at 8327 feet AMSL etc

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): ADSB

Icarus2001 June 16, 2025, 09:28:00 GMT permalink Post: 11903310	Quote: Therefore I expect the recorder/s will only be read today or tomorrow. So "if there was a major issue they would know by now" is unlikely My information differs to yours, We do know the EAFR was recovered on Saturday. Are you suggesting that it sat in a room for three days? Quote: Dual engine failure is very unlikely to occur but this seems increasingly to be the case here. Possibly there was a single engine failure followed by shutting down the remaining engine by mistake, if this happened it wouldn't be the first time. Wow you seriously think a professional crew would shutdown an engine below 400 feet? Is there any yaw or rudder deflection in any videos? Last edited by Icarus2001; 16th June 2025 at 09:41 . Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Dual Engine Failure EAFR Engine Failure (All)
Icarus2001 June 13, 2025, 05:11:00 GMT permalink Post: 11903710	Quote: An engine failure just off the runway after V1 in a fully loaded 787-8 in high ambient temperatures would assuredly have a crew thinking about a "toute suite" shutdown of a misbehaving donk No, no, no and again no. This is a transport category aircraft. It will happily climb on one engine to a safe altitude where procedures are followed. There is zero evidence of any engine "failures" or shutdowns by the crew. However the gear is still down at around 500' agl. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Engine Failure (All) V1
Icarus2001 June 16, 2025, 00:29:00 GMT permalink Post: 11903729	Quote: AFAIK the 787 DFDRs have an internal battery but if the power is off to the rest of the aeroplane, what data, if any, is going to make its way to the units? You answered your own question. The units would have had power. One pilot made a radio call so electrical power was available at the very least at emergency level. It has been established that the B787 utilises a EAFR, a combined CVR and DFDR. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): CVR DFDR EAFR MAYDAY
Icarus2001 June 16, 2025, 09:28:00 GMT permalink Post: 11903754	Quote: Therefore I expect the recorder/s will only be read today or tomorrow. So "if there was a major issue they would know by now" is unlikely My information differs to yours, We do know the EAFR was recovered on Saturday. Are you suggesting that it sat in a room for three days? Quote: Dual engine failure is very unlikely to occur but this seems increasingly to be the case here. Possibly there was a single engine failure followed by shutting down the remaining engine by mistake, if this happened it wouldn't be the first time. Wow you seriously think a professional crew would shutdown an engine below 400 feet? Is there any yaw or rudder deflection in any videos? Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Dual Engine Failure EAFR Engine Failure (All)
Icarus2001 June 17, 2025, 12:43:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904270	Quote: The RAT provides hydraulic power only to the flight control portion of the C hydraulics Should we talk about the RAT being an electrical generator? No? Okay then, carry on. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Generators/Alternators Hydraulic Failure (All) RAT (All) RAT (Electrical)
Icarus2001 June 17, 2025, 14:35:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904353	Quote: We know there was likely simultaneous dual engine failure very near Vr. We DO NOT know that. If that had occurred how did the aircraft achieve initial climb? Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Dual Engine Failure Engine Failure (All)
Icarus2001 June 18, 2025, 04:38:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904900	Quote: But likewise, the engines can't have failed much before rotation: No pilot is going to rotate with two engines running down. The engines were delivering thrust of some sort to at least 150’ feet or so. The aircraft climb rate decreases, it descends, it crashes. Maybe the RAT was out. That is all we know. Last edited by Senior Pilot; 18th June 2025 at 07:09 . Reason: Remove quote from deleted post plus throttle comment Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): RAT (All)
Icarus2001 June 18, 2025, 05:51:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904932	Quote: I wonder if it's safe to say they have not found something obviously wrong with the aircraft, as by now, if that was the case, grounding or enhanced checks would have been announced. That my friend is the billion dollar question. Which is the figure that the class action lawyers wrote on their whiteboard I think. Every day that passes with no Boeing or GE bulletins reduces the chance of a design issue and suggests maintenance or operational error. Subjects: None
Icarus2001 June 18, 2025, 13:43:00 GMT permalink Post: 11905264	Quote: True, but it took Boeing 4 months to ground Max 8's, three days after, and only because of, the second fatal accident. Without wanting to go down the MCAS rabbit hole, suffice to say Boeing thought that the MCAS did what they expected. They also expected a competent crew to follow the trim runaway memory item and turn off the trim motor, some crews did not. MCAS was made the bad guy due to a single pint of failure with the probe. That is why it took two crashes. I think if there was a design failure here we would know about it by now. As the Zen master said, we will see. Subjects: None
Icarus2001 June 19, 2025, 09:21:00 GMT permalink Post: 11905858	Quote: Air India plane crash: Black box of 787 Dreamliner to be sent to US for data recovery; ‘recorders sustained heavy damage…’ So to be clear, this was announced of Thursday 19 June. The one EAFR was recovered on Friday 13 June I believe and one on Sunday 15 June. Seems a long while to wait to send it to the US. Quote: would the logic have a brain fart and revert back to HOLD? No it would not revert back to HOLD. Quote: At what point before impact that power was lost, we do not know. Someone made a radio call near the end of the flight, so some power was available. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): EAFR MAYDAY
Icarus2001 June 20, 2025, 04:45:00 GMT permalink Post: 11906589	Quote: it will likely require a forensic teardown of the control systems of the engine to determine what damage may have occurred before impact. I have a more optimistic view that recovery of TWO EAFR units will mean a great deal will be known on analysis of this data. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): EAFR
Icarus2001 June 20, 2025, 09:04:00 GMT permalink Post: 11906745	Quote: Back in my commuter days more than one Captain at the layover hotel got a sudden call from ops that left an RJ engine running before they departed the airport Walking away from a parked aircraft and not noticing that an engine was running? Wow, just wow. You cannot be serious. Quote: If the other one is severely damaged we might as well end up with NO EAFR data from the critical last part of the flight At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, the EAFR is designed to withstand a crash and there being two helps, the fact that we can see a largely intact tail cone and stab is encouraging. There was some power as the radio was serviceable. The EAFR will soon tell us WHAT happened but perhaps not WHY just yet. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): EAFR
Icarus2001 June 21, 2025, 01:15:00 GMT permalink Post: 11907429	Quote: so it's not clear who has primacy in the investigation any more. I am not sure that is the case. Under ICAO rules the AAIB has lead on this. It was an Indian registered aircraft that crashed in India, how could they not be? The aviation minister ordered a “high level” investigation in to the accident. This is politics only. Quote: NEW DELHI, June 15 (Xinhua) -- India's federal civil aviation minister Ram Mohan Naidu Kinjarapu Saturday said keeping in view the utmost seriousness of the incident, another high-level committee has been formed to probe the deadly plane crash in the western state of Gujarat. The committee, according to Kinjarapu, will be headed by the home secretary and will submit its report in three months. This will make the minister feel he has control of the investigation and the narrative, in reality the EAFR data will be leaked by whichever party is in the clear. If the aviation minister understood his portfolio he would know that the AAIB and DGCA are the accountable and responsible agencies here. Watch carefully. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) DGCA EAFR ICAO
Icarus2001 June 21, 2025, 01:26:00 GMT permalink Post: 11907434	Quote: I view the MCAS events (personally) as 80% training/ORM/MX/ reaction and 20% hardware/Boeing failure (don`t mean to be callous or judgmental; Lord knows I`ve made my mistakes and am lucky to still be on the planet). While it`s culpable that Boeing never mentioned it (and that`s way wrong) it really didn`t differ from any other runaway trim scenario. For what it is worth I completely agree with you on MCAS, a different rabbit hole I know. Quote: But I just can`t get my arms around (right now) how a jet fueled by the same manifold as several other jets, devoid of any other major fuel systems issues, ETOPS certified, having a relatively clean history (maintaining its ETOPS), no OTHER software bugs being reported across the fleet nor any other unscheduled or abrupt engine shutdowns—or cascading electrical failures— (operating at conditions from -40 to +45 in all weather conditions) can have both engines just quit. Again, agreed. Which makes me more concerned that nothing has been forthcoming from either manufacturer, even insofar as a maintenance gotcha that needs to be remedied. Subjects: None
Icarus2001 June 21, 2025, 01:45:00 GMT permalink Post: 11907438	Quote: Originally Posted by FrequentSLF SLF here, With what might be a stupid question, however let me ask. Why the ground logic does not incorporate the wheel up command? Because many normal functions require knowing airborne or on the ground. The most obvious being gear retraction and in-flight braking of the spinning wheels, but there’s dozens of actions dependent on WOW. I think you missed the point of his question. Because there are some times that the gear is left down after take-off for operational reasons. An automatic retraction is not desirable because the PF needs to know there is a positive rate of climb before calling for gear up, lest the beast settle back on to runway. Have a look at Emirates in Dubai… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Flight_521 This was a go round accident but the positive rate principle is the same. Subjects: None
Icarus2001 June 21, 2025, 07:20:00 GMT permalink Post: 11907542	Quote: Only a reset of the Altitude Module or manual override of the Auto Trust would overcome this uncommented descent. This is not true. The AAI could be at 50 feet and a pilot can set a suitable climb attitude and push the thrust levers forward to enter a “normal” climb. The flight director would be useless at this point as it is commanding the descent. So no, the AAI does not need to be changed to commence a climb. Quote: Where the meme has come from that jet pilots have to shut down engines as quickly as possible I don’t know but it is incorrect. I completely agree. I imagine it relates to the ten minute max power limit on the live engine. Less and less relevant as the aircraft can give MCP easily. My current jet type does not have an engine failure memory item. I looked for a B787 EFATO memory item in the QRH but could not find one. Perhaps a current B787 pilot could confirm? Last edited by Icarus2001; 21st June 2025 at 07:27 . Reason: Fat fingers. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): EFATO Engine Failure (All)
Icarus2001 June 21, 2025, 08:26:00 GMT permalink Post: 11907575	I am only asking about an engine failure memory item. Fire, separation or severe damage being a different beast. Are you confirming that there is no specific engine failure memory item? When safe run the QRH? Quote: so it would be extremely unlikely this crew actually got the stage of touching a fuel control switch. I completely agree. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Engine Failure (All)
Icarus2001 June 21, 2025, 12:13:00 GMT permalink Post: 11907696	Quote: Do any of you engineers know if these engines were tested at these rather unusual atmospheric conditions of ISA+30C at 1000 hPa Unusual atmospheric conditions? Not around the middle of the earth, every day of the week. Subjects: None
Icarus2001 June 22, 2025, 06:23:00 GMT permalink Post: 11908302	Constructing ever more unlikely cascading failures to fit the very few known facts is unproductive. Of more interest to me is the lack of word on the plan to interrogate the EAFR units. Where and when? Also that the DGCA wants THREE managers removed from their positions at Air India. Unconnected to this accident however. Imagine Qantas being told by CASA to do a similar thing, or BA by the CAA, amazing stuff. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): DGCA EAFR
Icarus2001 June 22, 2025, 07:13:00 GMT permalink Post: 11908312	Quote: Another point pointing to that the aircraft did consider itself being ”In Air” is the ADS-B data sending Altitude from the first 575 feet ADS-B sends altitude on the ground as well, at sea level, at 8327 feet AMSL etc Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): ADSB

Posts by user "Icarus2001" [Posts: 47 Total up-votes: 0 Pages: 3]