2025-06-14T08:43:00
permalink Post: 11903718
I’m not a 787 driver so for fear of looking dumb in front of those that are this still confuses me. Even IF they’ve mis-selected the flap setting (I still don’t think it’s been cemented on here that there is in fact a FMS/flap setting disagreement warning but i believe there is), had the wrong de-rated take off settings, selected flaps instead of gear up the 787 with massive high bypass engines, FBW and full envelope protections surely cannot let itself be put in such a low energy/high alpha regime as we saw in the videos IF it has both fans functioning normally, surely?
the pilots may have messed up royally and numerous times so those holes lined up but the plane is the final block in the chain and a 21st century all digital entirely clean sheet design was sold as being immune to such catastrophic outcomes from a few minor (consequential yes) and fairly common errors- aren’t all the protections and our procedures designed after decades of mistakes?
im having a hard time squaring how a fully functioning modern bird like this could allow for this outcome and almost whatever the pilots did outside of unbelievable inputs and the pilots are are a bit of a red herring IMO
Dale Winsley
@Winsleydale
No. The LE slats are deployed therefore the flaps are as well. This is an automatic linkage. The flaps are set at Take-Off. Hard to see from the angle but they are...if slats are out (easy to see) then flaps are set. Looks like Flaps 5. Also, the 787 has the highest Thrust-to-Weight ratio of any airliner on Earth. The change in Alpha and lift is a trifling matter for it, at these settings (1-5). It will fly out of it easily, even at that density altitude. The attitude change is - in the circumstances I describe, consistent with a massive power loss (both sides). I believe based on probability that simultaneous mechanical failure is not the cause. Fuel contamination or starvation is likewise unlikely based on the 787 fuel system. The common element is the FADEC/Autothrottle/TOGO. However, each engine FADEC is dual redundant two channels. So any such common failure must happen further upstream. From a design perspective, that would be unthinkable. But this is Boeing. Given what I can see with my own eyes, I believe the flap issue is a non-starter. Also, re the landing gear: Clearly the Positive Rate challenge would be met based on normal rotation and fly-off at V2. But since we know the flaps were set correctly, that rules out an "oopsie" moment. Just as likely there was at the challenge moment an indication that something was amiss, and the Gear Up call was not made. They see both N1s unwinding and it takes a second to get past the WFT factor. They cross-check and see the airspeed also unwinding. Then they unload the Alpha and pitch to gear down Vy. And they had another 6 seconds. Whatever it was, it was not a flap, mechanical or fuel issue. We will know soon enough. But this is Boeing. My gut says "software". All 787s worldwide need to be grounded, now.
6:10 AM \xb7 Jun 14, 2025
\xb7
53.8K
Views
Subjects: FADEC FBW Flap Setting Flaps (All) Flaps vs Gear Fuel (All) Fuel Contamination Gear Retraction V2
2025-06-14T08:52:00
permalink Post: 11903719
https://x.com/winsleydale/status/193...230524974?s=46
I\x92m not a 787 driver so for fear of looking dumb in front of those that are this still confuses me. Even IF they\x92ve mis-selected the flap setting (I still don\x92t think it\x92s been cemented on here that there is in fact a FMS/flap setting disagreement warning but i believe there is), had the wrong de-rated take off settings, selected flaps instead of gear up the 787 with massive high bypass engines, FBW and full envelope protections surely cannot let itself be put in such a low energy/high alpha regime as we saw in the videos IF it has both fans functioning normally, surely?
the pilots may have messed up royally and numerous times so those holes lined up but the plane is the final block in the chain and a 21st century all digital entirely clean sheet design was sold as being immune to such catastrophic outcomes from a few minor (consequential yes) and fairly common errors- aren\x92t all the protections and our procedures designed after decades of mistakes?
im having a hard time squaring how a fully functioning modern bird like this could allow for this outcome and almost whatever the pilots did outside of unbelievable inputs and the pilots are are a bit of a red herring IMO
I\x92m not a 787 driver so for fear of looking dumb in front of those that are this still confuses me. Even IF they\x92ve mis-selected the flap setting (I still don\x92t think it\x92s been cemented on here that there is in fact a FMS/flap setting disagreement warning but i believe there is), had the wrong de-rated take off settings, selected flaps instead of gear up the 787 with massive high bypass engines, FBW and full envelope protections surely cannot let itself be put in such a low energy/high alpha regime as we saw in the videos IF it has both fans functioning normally, surely?
the pilots may have messed up royally and numerous times so those holes lined up but the plane is the final block in the chain and a 21st century all digital entirely clean sheet design was sold as being immune to such catastrophic outcomes from a few minor (consequential yes) and fairly common errors- aren\x92t all the protections and our procedures designed after decades of mistakes?
im having a hard time squaring how a fully functioning modern bird like this could allow for this outcome and almost whatever the pilots did outside of unbelievable inputs and the pilots are are a bit of a red herring IMO
Subjects: FBW Flap Setting Flaps (All) Flaps vs Gear
2025-06-17T21:30:00
permalink Post: 11904683
It is fair to say that the lack of groundings is significant but then what is the DGCA\x92s extra inspections of Indian 787-8s about? Just to reassure the flying public? Maybe.
it\x92s quite crazy how many different theories are going around and not just from SLF/uninformed people. At the end of my duty today the aircraft engineer we were handing the plane over to showed me a forward he had to \x91an official\x92 report stating the cause has been the captain\x92s chair sliding backwards thus retarding the thrust levers
it can be argued it\x92s better to be thorough and accurate so daily briefings by the DGCA/AAIB would just create a circus but at the same time silence created a vacuum that this day and age of fake news/click farming takes advantage of. Already most of the biggest aviation \x91influencers\x92 are onto their 3rd theory of what happened
that said the engineer did make an interesting point to me, he\x92s not Boeing rated but he says he has friends that are and he is told they apparently go 2 hours plus early out to the aircraft just to run through all the inevitable issues, apparently on the line the highly electrical fleet is plagued by electrical issues, is that related to this? Possibly not.
it\x92s quite crazy how many different theories are going around and not just from SLF/uninformed people. At the end of my duty today the aircraft engineer we were handing the plane over to showed me a forward he had to \x91an official\x92 report stating the cause has been the captain\x92s chair sliding backwards thus retarding the thrust levers
it can be argued it\x92s better to be thorough and accurate so daily briefings by the DGCA/AAIB would just create a circus but at the same time silence created a vacuum that this day and age of fake news/click farming takes advantage of. Already most of the biggest aviation \x91influencers\x92 are onto their 3rd theory of what happened
that said the engineer did make an interesting point to me, he\x92s not Boeing rated but he says he has friends that are and he is told they apparently go 2 hours plus early out to the aircraft just to run through all the inevitable issues, apparently on the line the highly electrical fleet is plagued by electrical issues, is that related to this? Possibly not.
Subjects: None
1 user liked this post.
2025-06-17T22:42:00
permalink Post: 11904730
Most? The Airbus I'm familiar with is 100' AGL or 5s after liftoff and I think this is common to all Airbus FBW. The B787 & B777 appear to be 200' AGL but I'm taking this from online FCOM extracts. The
B737
does appear to be 400'. Company limitations may be higher.
As mentioned elsewhere both EK and Air NZ have had messy low level mis-set altitude capture incidents with the B777, but in isolation, obviously, this wouldn't cause RAT extension.
About airport cameras. Someone pointed out on the other thread that airports have more coverage than they would necessarily advertise. Presumably available to investigators but not to the public or press.
As mentioned elsewhere both EK and Air NZ have had messy low level mis-set altitude capture incidents with the B777, but in isolation, obviously, this wouldn't cause RAT extension.
About airport cameras. Someone pointed out on the other thread that airports have more coverage than they would necessarily advertise. Presumably available to investigators but not to the public or press.
yeah the low MCP alt setting/alt capture doesn\x92t make a whole lot of sense- the plane didn\x92t pitch forward it just failed to climb/lost lift
that\x92s not conducive with what happened nor does it explain why the gear is still down (although seemingly selected up given the boogie tilt) or the RAT deployed (if it really was)
Subjects: FBW FCOM Gear Retraction MLG Tilt RAT (All) RAT (Deployment)
2025-06-19T20:55:00
permalink Post: 11906367
Classy move along with rebuilding the medical school the plane crashed into
https://www.business-standard.com/am...1801390_1.html
definitely not the actions of a company or country trying to brush this under the carpet as was insinuated almost immediately by many here
Tata to create a new trust to help Air India crash victims: Chandrasekaran
https://www.business-standard.com/am...1801390_1.html
definitely not the actions of a company or country trying to brush this under the carpet as was insinuated almost immediately by many here
Subjects: None
3 users liked this post.
2025-06-29T18:17:00
permalink Post: 11913162
his comments come from this interview but I don\x92t speak Hindi:
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/sabo...-mohol-8788920
Subjects: AI171
1 user liked this post.