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Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-14T09:18:00 permalink Post: 11901296 |
I hesitate to chip in in these accident threads. Keep them clean. However, as as a few comments above brushes my audio expertise, I will comment.
A very simple audio analysis give me this: The 3 segments horisontally, are of different videos of B787s passing overhead/landing. The vertical drop you see is the doppler effect. In other words, these are spectrograms over time which makes these distinctions easier than a simple static spectrogram. 1. B787 landing with RAT extended. 2.Air india crash 3. B787 landing without RAT It's a 5 minute laptop job, and it would look much prettier and clearer if I spent some time with it, (Gain to color match, and spectrally match to compensate for microphone placement and type), but it is 85% conclusive even when done as simple as this IMO. (I do have legal forensic audio experience) The RAT was out judging from the audio evidence. You can see the the equally spaced overtones of the propelller match when passing overhead resulting in the Doppler effect, the difference in length of the doppler is caused by distance and the slightly varying frequencies shown in the starting point is caused by a difference in speed. But the harmonic content match. In the 3rd segment you see none of these overtones at all. ![]() Last edited by Kraftstoffvondesibel; 14th Jun 2025 at 12:02 . Subjects: Audio Analysis RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) 58 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-14T11:51:00 permalink Post: 11901399 |
It was hard to let it go, so I spent a bit more time with the audio, using filtering and matching to see if I could be even more sure.
It's a pity uploading audio to this site isn't as easy as uploading photos, but I can say it took very little filtering and matching to make the Air India audio become nearly indistinguishable from audio taken of B787 with known RAT extended during landing. I can't see it in the photos either, but in these circumstances the audio is a lot more trustworthy, and from my audio point of view RAT deployment is 100% confirmed. In the off chance that the audio I borrowed from a confirmed RAT event was somehow faked, I plotted the technical data I could find of the B787 RAT (4000rpm, 2 blades) combined with a height estimate and asked the O3 model with deep research to estimate doppler shift and speed. The result matches the above documented 270-200Hz (in one of the harmonics) Doppler shift observed in 1.7 seconds. Subjects: Audio Analysis RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) 33 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-14T15:02:00 permalink Post: 11901554 |
Of course one taking off would have a different signature. If anyone can point point to one taking off with the rat out we could compare. What I find interesting is that I don’t see any evidence in the audio of the engine spooling down, which would leave a recogniseable pattern in the audio one should think. So either it is down so much that the fan rpm is down to windmilling already, or it is simply low enough in volume to be already masked by the ambience. So taking this and moving into speculative territory for a moment, I think I read somewhere that the video with audio starts 17 seconds after the wheels left the ground. Provided the engines were windmilling the video audio since I haven't been able to find any obvious spool down, can anyone say anything meaningful on how long it takes for the engines to spool down to windmilling rpm? we can then backtrack from the point the video starts. How does that timing then coincide with the ADS-B data ceasing to transmit, for instance? Putting back in the more strictly data-driven hat, I am not prepared to say so far anything about the engine working or not. You guys know more anout why the rat is out. Last edited by Kraftstoffvondesibel; 14th Jun 2025 at 15:33 . Subjects: ADSB 5 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-14T16:31:00 permalink Post: 11901627 |
About the engine spool down not present in the audio: I did not know engines spooled down that quickly if shut down in the air, I am not an aerodynamicist, but it makes sense it would happen with all the drag. I had a mental sound in my head from normal shutdowns, and action movies I guess. That means my point about it being no spool down detectable in the audio really doesn\x92t matter. Is there known numbers for timing RAT deployment or spool up? Because there is no sign of that either in the audio. I will have a go at a few after take-off videos and use some alternative comparison techniques to see if I can say anything with certainty about any engine power being present or not. My hunch, after analyzing a few landing videos with and without the RAT with the standard audio analyzers tells me the engines were at similar or below rpm/noise making level/thrust compared to a normal landing, and that they had already completely spooled down(which you guys suggest is to be expected to happen much more quickly than I thought, so maybe doesn\x92t say much) when the video with audio starts. Subjects: RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) 1 user liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-15T10:44:00 permalink Post: 11902343 |
I don't know if anyone finds this interesting or useful, but since the questions about speed and height is coming up, based on the observer in the second video, it is what it is:
![]() Subjects: None 5 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-15T11:56:00 permalink Post: 11902405 |
What this plot also does however is tell you the speed if you know the height or height if you know the speed. The iphone used to film this were pictured somewhere, knowing the iphone model, and thus the characteristics of the camera, and the dimensions of the airplane it wouldn't be impossible to calculate height from the video imo. Just throwing it out there if anyone sees the use and feels the call. My personal amateur speculation still centers around the cut off switches. I have spilled coffee and sweet tea over complex electro/mechanical switches/panels before(large format audio consoles with 8000 buttons) and seen unexpected things happen. I am sure the switches are spectacularly well built, but they are in close proximity and thus prone to the same external factors. Does anyone know if these two cut-off switches in such close proximity has the exact same installation, or they differentiated in some way that makes a freak failure mode in one not neccesarily affect the other the same way? Last edited by Saab Dastard; 15th Jun 2025 at 21:36 . Reason: Unwarranted speculation removed Subjects: Audio Analysis Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff RAT (All) 5 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-15T18:25:00 permalink Post: 11902693 |
I realise the discussion has largely moved on, but for completeness I have analysed, filtered and compared the audio from several 787 videos\x97both take-off and landing (the latter with and without RAT deployment; take-off footage with the RAT out is rare).
Using the same style of frequency plots employed in the RAT analysis\x97and drawing on speed of different engine components data supplied by other contributors\x97it is straightforward to identify the engines\x92 high-power acoustic signatures objectively, despite variations among clips and the presence of Doppler shift. What is clear is that the engine noise in the recording bears no resemblance to a typical 787 take-off profile. Whether the engines were merely at very low thrust/idle or fully windmilling I cannot say with certainty, but they were certainly nowhere near take-off power. Make of that what you will. Subjects: Audio Analysis RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) 40 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-15T22:06:00 permalink Post: 11902890 |
If you would read my post carefully you would know that my issue is that at the moment that the RAT is claimed to be heard and the plane is close the RAT is not seen in the frames. That comes much later when the plane is far away and pixelated. There is no ear witness. There is someone who claims to have heard hundreds of RAT deployments (not 500) and who has heard the audio. So yes, there is a brief RAT-like sound. But the evidence is too weak to base elaborate theories on.
Just putting this out there, since many might be unfamiliar with this, you included. Subjects: Audio Analysis RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) 35 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-15T23:36:00 permalink Post: 11902967 |
Maybe you should describe your analysis then and present the data? I'm a physicist so chances are I might actually not be so unfamiliar. Please include an analysis of raw data quality, spectral resolution and binning as well. And don't state it is the 'exact same' as this is statistically impossible.
The latest techniques let us separate such things as reverbration from the source, when superimposing the reverberation/ambience and background noise of the AI crash urban environment on the clean, dead open field recording of the known B787 w/rat, they do indeed sound exactly the same to this very skilled and experienced listener. Although this is not courtesy of the computer analysis. It is just another angle of confirmation. All in all, i think this source audio is excellent. The source is an iphone, their mems based microphones, although noisy shows great spectral balance and is comparable to basic measurement microphones of professional application. There is plenty of information to analyse from in this sample. And again, I can't see it in the video either, and until I put on some really expensive headphones and fired up the software I was of a different opinion. I bowed to the science. Edit: I took an extra look, I am prepared to say the fall off at slightly above 16kHz is from the original recording, this is probably a limitation in the microphone, as it is not a hard cut-off before a 16kHz Nyquist frequency as it would be with a 32kHz sampling rate, there is dither noise from 16-20kHz fitting with the source being 16 bit. Last edited by Kraftstoffvondesibel; 15th Jun 2025 at 23:54 . Subjects: Audio Analysis RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) 42 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-16T09:48:00 permalink Post: 11903335 |
One thing we haven't discussed as a characteristic is how the AI recording moves from indirect sound with a shorter ambience, to direct sound, to a very much more ambient distant character in the same amount of time as the large aircraft moving overhead. The moped/motorcycle in the sample, keeps about the same small street ambience throughout. Notice how the harmonics are in different places with different spacing and with different relative intensity, the emphasis on the internal combustion engine is lower in frequency than the open Rat, but with added exhaust noise. Thank you. ![]() I also enclose a doppler distance Subjects: Audio Analysis 29 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-14T09:18:00 permalink Post: 11903720 |
I hesitate to chip in in these accident threads. Keep them clean. However, as as a few comments above brushes my audio expertise, I will comment.
A very simple audio analysis give me this: The 3 segments horisontally, are of different videos of B787s passing overhead/landing. The vertical drop you see is the doppler effect. In other words, these are spectrograms over time which makes these distinctions easier than a simple static spectrogram. 1. B787 landing with RAT extended. 2.Air india crash 3. B787 landing without RAT It's a 5 minute laptop job, and it would look much prettier and clearer if I spent some time with it, (Gain to color match, and spectrally match to compensate for microphone placement and type), but it is 85% conclusive even when done as simple as this IMO. (I do have legal forensic audio experience) The RAT was out judging from the audio evidence. You can see the the equally spaced overtones of the propelller match when passing overhead resulting in the Doppler effect, the difference in length of the doppler is caused by distance and the slightly varying frequencies shown in the starting point is caused by a difference in speed. But the harmonic content match. In the 3rd segment you see none of these overtones at all. ![]() Subjects: Audio Analysis RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) 5 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-14T09:18:00 permalink Post: 11903675 |
I hesitate to chip in in these accident threads. Keep them clean. However, as as a few comments above brushes my audio expertise, I will comment.
A very simple audio analysis give me this: The 3 segments horisontally, are of different videos of B787s passing overhead/landing. The vertical drop you see is the doppler effect. In other words, these are spectrograms over time which makes these distinctions easier than a simple static spectrogram. 1. B787 landing with RAT extended. 2.Air india crash 3. B787 landing without RAT It's a 5 minute laptop job, and it would look much prettier and clearer if I spent some time with it, (Gain to color match, and spectrally match to compensate for microphone placement and type), but it is 85% conclusive even when done as simple as this IMO. (I do have legal forensic audio experience) The RAT was out judging from the audio evidence. You can see the the equally spaced overtones of the propelller match when passing overhead resulting in the Doppler effect, the difference in length of the doppler is caused by distance and the slightly varying frequencies shown in the starting point is caused by a difference in speed. But the harmonic content match. In the 3rd segment you see none of these overtones at all. ![]() Subjects: Audio Analysis RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) 2 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-14T11:51:00 permalink Post: 11903676 |
It was hard to let it go, so I spent a bit more time with the audio, using filtering and matching to see if I could be even more sure.
It's a pity uploading audio to this site isn't as easy as uploading photos, but I can say it took very little filtering and matching to make the Air India audio become nearly indistinguishable from audio taken of B787 with known RAT extended during landing. I can't see it in the photos either, but in these circumstances the audio is a lot more trustworthy, and from my audio point of view RAT deployment is 100% confirmed. In the off chance that the audio I borrowed from a confirmed RAT event was somehow faked, I plotted the technical data I could find of the B787 RAT (4000rpm, 2 blades) combined with a height estimate and asked the O3 model with deep research to estimate doppler shift and speed. The result matches the above documented 270-200Hz (in one of the harmonics) Doppler shift observed in 1.7 seconds. Subjects: Audio Analysis RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) 1 user liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-14T15:02:00 permalink Post: 11903677 |
Of course one taking off would have a different signature. If anyone can point point to one taking off with the rat out we could compare. What I find interesting is that I don’t see any evidence in the audio of the engine spooling down, which would leave a recogniseable pattern in the audio one should think. So either it is down so much that the fan rpm is down to windmilling already, or it is simply low enough in volume to be already masked by the ambience. So taking this and moving into speculative territory for a moment, I think I read somewhere that the video with audio starts 17 seconds after the wheels left the ground. Provided the engines were windmilling the video audio since I haven't been able to find any obvious spool down, can anyone say anything meaningful on how long it takes for the engines to spool down to windmilling rpm? we can then backtrack from the point the video starts. How does that timing then coincide with the ADS-B data ceasing to transmit, for instance? Putting back in the more strictly data-driven hat, I am not prepared to say so far anything about the engine working or not. You guys know more anout why the rat is out. Subjects: ADSB 1 user liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-14T16:31:00 permalink Post: 11903678 |
About the engine spool down not present in the audio: I did not know engines spooled down that quickly if shut down in the air, I am not an aerodynamicist, but it makes sense it would happen with all the drag. I had a mental sound in my head from normal shutdowns, and action movies I guess. That means my point about it being no spool down detectable in the audio really doesn\x92t matter. Is there known numbers for timing RAT deployment or spool up? Because there is no sign of that either in the audio. I will have a go at a few after take-off videos and use some alternative comparison techniques to see if I can say anything with certainty about any engine power being present or not. My hunch, after analyzing a few landing videos with and without the RAT with the standard audio analyzers tells me the engines were at similar or below rpm/noise making level/thrust compared to a normal landing, and that they had already completely spooled down(which you guys suggest is to be expected to happen much more quickly than I thought, so maybe doesn\x92t say much) when the video with audio starts. Subjects: RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-14T16:39:00 permalink Post: 11903679 |
This is a screen shot taken from the Video thats posted on the BBC Verify website, that they have verified as authentic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c626y121rxxo I still can't see a RAT deployed. However, the rat is small, and the artifacts are plentiful. Small sensor, compressed video, compressed upload, zoom, it is in short an awful source. However, the RAT is a much better noisemaker, and the audio signature is much more obvious than it’s visual appearance in this case, and though the recording isn’t fantastic quality, there was more than enough information there to objectively conclude the RAT is out. And that is my professional, on the weekend, opinion. I want to ask a pretty frank question for all of you, and I hope it is ok, from an audio specialist non-pilot: Provided the engines spooled down. Provided the RAT is out. (There are no explosions, no bird strikes.) Isn’t software and previous electrical failures a red herring too?Would anything but a complete fuel shut off lead to this result? That still leaves everything from the Fate is the Hunter plot, to Airbus A350 center consoles and Alaska 2059 open as root causes. Subjects: BBC Bird Strike Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) 2 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-15T10:44:00 permalink Post: 11903680 |
I don't know if anyone finds this interesting or useful, but since the questions about speed and height is coming up, based on the observer in the second video, it is what it is:
![]() Subjects: None 1 user liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-15T11:56:00 permalink Post: 11903681 |
What this plot also does however is tell you the speed if you know the height or height if you know the speed. The iphone used to film this were pictured somewhere, knowing the iphone model, and thus the characteristics of the camera, and the dimensions of the airplane it wouldn't be impossible to calculate height from the video imo. Just throwing it out there if anyone sees the use and feels the call. My personal amateur speculation still centers around the cut off switches. I have spilled coffee and sweet tea over complex electro/mechanical switches/panels before(large format audio consoles with 8000 buttons) and seen unexpected things happen. I am sure the switches are spectacularly well built, but they are in close proximity and thus prone to the same external factors. Does anyone know if these two cut-off switches in such close proximity has the exact same installation, or they differentiated in some way that makes a freak failure mode in one not neccesarily affect the other the same way? Subjects: Audio Analysis Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff RAT (All) 1 user liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-15T18:25:00 permalink Post: 11903682 |
I realise the discussion has largely moved on, but for completeness I have analysed, filtered and compared the audio from several 787 videos\x97both take-off and landing (the latter with and without RAT deployment; take-off footage with the RAT out is rare).
Using the same style of frequency plots employed in the RAT analysis\x97and drawing on speed of different engine components data supplied by other contributors\x97it is straightforward to identify the engines\x92 high-power acoustic signatures objectively, despite variations among clips and the presence of Doppler shift. What is clear is that the engine noise in the recording bears no resemblance to a typical 787 take-off profile. Whether the engines were merely at very low thrust/idle or fully windmilling I cannot say with certainty, but they were certainly nowhere near take-off power. Make of that what you will. Subjects: Audio Analysis RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) 4 users liked this post. |
Kraftstoffvondesibel
2025-06-15T22:06:00 permalink Post: 11903683 |
If you would read my post carefully you would know that my issue is that at the moment that the RAT is claimed to be heard and the plane is close the RAT is not seen in the frames. That comes much later when the plane is far away and pixelated. There is no ear witness. There is someone who claims to have heard hundreds of RAT deployments (not 500) and who has heard the audio. So yes, there is a brief RAT-like sound. But the evidence is too weak to base elaborate theories on.
Just putting this out there, since many might be unfamiliar with this, you included. Subjects: Audio Analysis RAT (All) RAT (Deployment) 3 users liked this post. |