Lord Bracken
June 12, 2025, 17:34:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11899519

Quote:

Originally Posted by DogTailRed2

Many years ago when Fly By Wire was first being installed into aircraft they would show these amazing test flights where a pilot would pull back the throttles, raise the nose to try and stall the aircraft and the FBW system would lower the nose, add back in the power and keep the aircraft in controlled flight. That for me (an uneducated layman) was the point in FBW. It was safer than a pilot alone.
How is it then that a modern FBW aircraft can allow itself to be placed into a low, slow and high AOA profile which inevitably leads to a crash and appears to to nothing? I would have expected that the systems would have deployed anything needed, retract anything not needed or at least push the nose down?

1. Boeing FBW is different to Airbus FBW
2. No FBW can overcome the laws of physics.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): FBW

Lord Bracken
June 14, 2025, 08:25:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11901248

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanche

Regarding the sound believed to be the RAT: Some people suggest that the sound might come from the street, not the plane. I'd say the apparent doppler effect heard would indicate otherwise. It would be interesting to do a spectral analysis to check if the frequency drop is indeed compatible with the expected doppler effect. I wouldn't be surprised if several readers have the software and know-how to perform a simple analysis.

What else could it be? A motorbike\x85no. A power drill or other construction noise\x85no. An air conditioning unit\x85no. A cement mixer\x85no. I\x92m struggling to think of anything else you could find in an Indian urban area that sounds almost exactly like a RAT and just happened to be making a sound as an aircraft flew over at low level.

Occam\x92s Razor is in play here.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): RAT (All)

Lord Bracken
June 15, 2025, 12:22:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11902423

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Fanelli

Did someone drive a vehicle over that wing?

I\x92ve seen Instagram footage of an airport fire engine driving over wreckage, so quite possibly.

Subjects: None

Lord Bracken
June 16, 2025, 09:24:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11903304

Quote:

Originally Posted by Propellerhead

Boeing and the AAIB only arrived at the scene this morning. Black boxes were recovered on Friday.

Therefore I expect the recorder/s will only be read today or tomorrow. So "if there was a major issue they would know by now" is unlikely.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All)

Lord Bracken
June 16, 2025, 09:34:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11903315

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarus2001

My information differs to yours, We do know the EAFR was recovered on Saturday. Are you suggesting that it sat in a room for three days?

My expectation is that at the very least the AAIB (India) would want to open / read in the presence of the AAIB (UK) and the manufacturer. They might even want to read it at a location with specialist equipment (NTSB in Washington, BEA in France, AAIB in UK). None of this would be unprecedented when looking at previous accident investigations particularly for those that took place in developing countries.

Quick example, EK 521 accident in DXB:

Quote:

1.11 Flight Recorders The Aircraft was equipped with a Honeywell sold-state flight data recorder (SSFDR) and an L-3 Communication cockpit voice recorder (CVR). Both flight recorders were found mounted in their original locations on the Aircraft, with external signs of prolonged exposure to elevated temperatures. However, temperature indicators within each crash-survivable memory unit indicated that the memory components themselves had not been exposed to significantly elevated temperatures. The flight recorders were sent to the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) facility in the United Kingdom for data retrieval in the presence of the Investigation Committee.

Pakistan A320 accident Karachi:

Quote:

1.11. Flight Recorders 1.11.1. The aircraft was equipped with solid-state DFDR and solid-state CVR. DFDR and CVR were recovered from the accident site and taken to BEA, France by Investigator In-charge (IIC) from AAIB, Pakistan on 1st June, 2020. Despite having crash and heat effects, both recorders were successfully downloaded by BEA experts.

(1st June was 10 days after the accident).

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) AAIB (India) CVR DFDR EAFR Honeywell NTSB

Lord Bracken
June 17, 2025, 18:13:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904527

Quote:

Originally Posted by cats_five

It took much more than a few days for the 737 Max to be grounded

Absolutely. This confidence that the EAFR has already been read is misplaced. It\x92s a specialist piece of equipment and probably can\x92t even be downloaded in India. It\x92s most likely on its way to the NTSB, the BEA or the AAIB (UK) for analysis which will be done under strict conditions (for obvious reasons).

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) EAFR NTSB

Lord Bracken
June 17, 2025, 19:24:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904584

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK

It isn't. It's essentially just a CVR and FDR in the same box. The main USP is that you now have two of each, about as far apart from each other as possible on the aircraft.

Each is downloaded separately in pretty much the same way as always.

I was referring to CVR/FDRs in general being specialist equipment requiring specialist facilities to process. In any case, I would be very interested to find out where those from this accident are read. It appears from a post upthread there are new facilities in New Dehli that could be used. Having said that, for the EK 521 accident in Dubai the recorders were sent to the UK for analysis, despite a "flight data recorder centre" in Abu Dhabi being opened (again with much fanfare) by the UAE GCAA five years before the occurrence.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): CVR FDR

Lord Bracken
June 17, 2025, 20:24:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904626

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK

The Indian AAIB successfully downloaded both FDR and CVR data from an Air India 787's EAFR relating to an incident in 2018, so your misgivings on that account are unfounded.

I have no misgivings, I\x92m just challenging the assertion that because the recorders have been found, they have already been read. There\x92s any number of reasons why they may not have been read yet, in India or anywhere else.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) AAIB (India) CVR EAFR FDR

Lord Bracken June 12, 2025, 17:34:00 GMT permalink Post: 11899519	Quote: Originally Posted by DogTailRed2 Many years ago when Fly By Wire was first being installed into aircraft they would show these amazing test flights where a pilot would pull back the throttles, raise the nose to try and stall the aircraft and the FBW system would lower the nose, add back in the power and keep the aircraft in controlled flight. That for me (an uneducated layman) was the point in FBW. It was safer than a pilot alone. How is it then that a modern FBW aircraft can allow itself to be placed into a low, slow and high AOA profile which inevitably leads to a crash and appears to to nothing? I would have expected that the systems would have deployed anything needed, retract anything not needed or at least push the nose down? 1. Boeing FBW is different to Airbus FBW 2. No FBW can overcome the laws of physics. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): FBW
Lord Bracken June 14, 2025, 08:25:00 GMT permalink Post: 11901248	Quote: Originally Posted by hanche Regarding the sound believed to be the RAT: Some people suggest that the sound might come from the street, not the plane. I'd say the apparent doppler effect heard would indicate otherwise. It would be interesting to do a spectral analysis to check if the frequency drop is indeed compatible with the expected doppler effect. I wouldn't be surprised if several readers have the software and know-how to perform a simple analysis. What else could it be? A motorbike\x85no. A power drill or other construction noise\x85no. An air conditioning unit\x85no. A cement mixer\x85no. I\x92m struggling to think of anything else you could find in an Indian urban area that sounds almost exactly like a RAT and just happened to be making a sound as an aircraft flew over at low level. Occam\x92s Razor is in play here. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): RAT (All)
Lord Bracken June 15, 2025, 12:22:00 GMT permalink Post: 11902423	Quote: Originally Posted by Peter Fanelli Did someone drive a vehicle over that wing? I\x92ve seen Instagram footage of an airport fire engine driving over wreckage, so quite possibly. Subjects: None
Lord Bracken June 16, 2025, 09:24:00 GMT permalink Post: 11903304	Quote: Originally Posted by Propellerhead Boeing and the AAIB only arrived at the scene this morning. Black boxes were recovered on Friday. Therefore I expect the recorder/s will only be read today or tomorrow. So "if there was a major issue they would know by now" is unlikely. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All)
Lord Bracken June 16, 2025, 09:34:00 GMT permalink Post: 11903315	Quote: Originally Posted by Icarus2001 My information differs to yours, We do know the EAFR was recovered on Saturday. Are you suggesting that it sat in a room for three days? My expectation is that at the very least the AAIB (India) would want to open / read in the presence of the AAIB (UK) and the manufacturer. They might even want to read it at a location with specialist equipment (NTSB in Washington, BEA in France, AAIB in UK). None of this would be unprecedented when looking at previous accident investigations particularly for those that took place in developing countries. Quick example, EK 521 accident in DXB: Quote: 1.11 Flight Recorders The Aircraft was equipped with a Honeywell sold-state flight data recorder (SSFDR) and an L-3 Communication cockpit voice recorder (CVR). Both flight recorders were found mounted in their original locations on the Aircraft, with external signs of prolonged exposure to elevated temperatures. However, temperature indicators within each crash-survivable memory unit indicated that the memory components themselves had not been exposed to significantly elevated temperatures. The flight recorders were sent to the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) facility in the United Kingdom for data retrieval in the presence of the Investigation Committee. Pakistan A320 accident Karachi: Quote: 1.11. Flight Recorders 1.11.1. The aircraft was equipped with solid-state DFDR and solid-state CVR. DFDR and CVR were recovered from the accident site and taken to BEA, France by Investigator In-charge (IIC) from AAIB, Pakistan on 1st June, 2020. Despite having crash and heat effects, both recorders were successfully downloaded by BEA experts. (1st June was 10 days after the accident). Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) AAIB (India) CVR DFDR EAFR Honeywell NTSB
Lord Bracken June 17, 2025, 18:13:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904527	Quote: Originally Posted by cats_five It took much more than a few days for the 737 Max to be grounded Absolutely. This confidence that the EAFR has already been read is misplaced. It\x92s a specialist piece of equipment and probably can\x92t even be downloaded in India. It\x92s most likely on its way to the NTSB, the BEA or the AAIB (UK) for analysis which will be done under strict conditions (for obvious reasons). Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) EAFR NTSB
Lord Bracken June 17, 2025, 19:24:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904584	Quote: Originally Posted by DaveReidUK It isn't. It's essentially just a CVR and FDR in the same box. The main USP is that you now have two of each, about as far apart from each other as possible on the aircraft. Each is downloaded separately in pretty much the same way as always. I was referring to CVR/FDRs in general being specialist equipment requiring specialist facilities to process. In any case, I would be very interested to find out where those from this accident are read. It appears from a post upthread there are new facilities in New Dehli that could be used. Having said that, for the EK 521 accident in Dubai the recorders were sent to the UK for analysis, despite a "flight data recorder centre" in Abu Dhabi being opened (again with much fanfare) by the UAE GCAA five years before the occurrence. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): CVR FDR
Lord Bracken June 17, 2025, 20:24:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904626	Quote: Originally Posted by DaveReidUK The Indian AAIB successfully downloaded both FDR and CVR data from an Air India 787's EAFR relating to an incident in 2018, so your misgivings on that account are unfounded. I have no misgivings, I\x92m just challenging the assertion that because the recorders have been found, they have already been read. There\x92s any number of reasons why they may not have been read yet, in India or anywhere else. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) AAIB (India) CVR EAFR FDR

Posts by user "Lord Bracken" [Posts: 8 Total up-votes: 0 Pages: 1]