Squawk7700
June 17, 2025, 10:28:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904180

Perhaps?

Takeoff proceeded normally, TOGA used.
Autothrottle entered HOLD mode at 80 knots .
VNAV or FLCH was NOT engaged after liftoff.
Pilot assumed A/T was managing thrust, but it wasn’t.
Pilot focused on pitch/flying manually.
Thrust stayed fixed or decayed (if levers were moved).
Speed decayed, aircraft climbed too steeply, energy bled off.
Pilot assumed engine failure due to poor climb response.

Boeing SOPs typically include a callout at 400 ft like:

"LNAV" - "VNAV" or "FLCH SPD"

To ensure:

Proper navigation mode is active
Autothrottle resumes thrust management
Aircraft transitions smoothly into the climb phase

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Engine Failure (All) TOGA

Squawk7700
June 17, 2025, 10:32:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904185

Quote:

Originally Posted by gearlever

"On Jun 17th 2025 an official, a former Air India Captain trained by the Captain of the accident flight, stated, that the CVR has been successfully read out, the voices on the CVR are very clear. It is becoming gradually clear from the newly emerging evidence that there was probably zero negligence in the cockpit, the crew did not give up until the very last moment. The probability of a technical cause is high. A preliminary report by India's AAIB can be expected in a few days."

AvH

How could the CVR have been "read out" if the CVR hasn't yet been located?

This comment is from a low-budget news source.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) CVR Preliminary Report

Squawk7700
June 17, 2025, 12:33:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904262

Quote:

Originally Posted by TURIN

But would any of that trigger the RAT and/or cause the emergency lights to come on? (I know, there is only anecdotal evidence from the sole survivor of this).

That came from a 787 pilot friend. Under the assumption that the RAT deployment is still an assumption.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): RAT (All) RAT (Deployment)

Squawk7700
June 17, 2025, 23:16:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904753

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

Interesting but totally irrelevant as the jet never got above 200ft.

You're clearly implying a complete ballsup by the crew, making multiple serious mistakes or errors of omission.

"The Air India Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner that tragically crashed on June 12, 2025, reached a maximum altitude of approximately 625 feet above sea level—about 425 feet above the airport’s elevation of 200 feet—before it began descending. Other reports indicate the aircraft may have reached up to 825 feet before losing lift."

Not impling; but merely asking if it were possible.

* Disclaimer - It is unkown if these statistics take into account the barometric pressure at the time.

Subjects: None

Squawk7700
June 17, 2025, 23:26:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904762

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lead Balloon

I was struck by a comment in this or the earlier thread that I cannot now find. It was to the effect \x96 I\x92m paraphrasing \x96 that fuel shut off results in an almost immediate cessation of thrust.

Spot on, there's so much fuel being sucked at that power setting, it would be super quick and presumably at near enough to the exact same time.

I assume (rightly so) that you're focused on what could cause them to fail at what appears to be the exact same time given the absence of yaw and any correcting rudder input.

One the face of it, it could only be throttle or fuel supply, with fuel supply only being able to be cut off by valves so abruptly. Any kind of blockage or similar wouldn't give such a result, even if there was a low fuel condition, short of the pickups being exactly right next to each other, presumably that wouldn't give the outcome we've seen.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Fuel Cutoff Switches

Squawk7700
June 17, 2025, 23:29:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904765

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdracer

The gag rule is pretty much the first thing you're told when you get drawn into an investigation - and you can get in big trouble for violating it (even if inadvertent).
A Boeing management type got his hand slapped pretty hard not to long ago when he made the mistake of answering a reporter's question regarding the Alaska door plug blowout.
I was tempted to contact my friend who was my counterpart during the 787/GEnx-1B development, but I suspect he's already been contacted and is considered to be part of the investigation - so he couldn't talk to me about it anyway.

I wouldn't read anything at all into it, as it appeared on a single online news article from some low-budget unknown news source.

Subjects: None

Squawk7700
June 18, 2025, 03:53:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904874

Quote:

Originally Posted by PANme

Real time data reporting of performance by engines and a/c systems.

How much data might Boeing and the engine manufacturers have had access to prior to any electrical interruption.

How much of such data flow is forwarded in real time to airline integrated operations centres?

Short of the long would any of these entities have access to data that could substantially point them in the direction of isolating a cause even before the black boxes are read and transcribed.

Spot on, as we would all know by now, ACARS would have been sending it, IF they are paying for the subscription for the Inmarsat service.

Subjects: None

Squawk7700
June 18, 2025, 04:58:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904909

Quote:

Originally Posted by PANme

After mh370 it’s hard to believe that the maximum flow of critical data is not yet mandated.

There was talk back then that Boeing were going to cop the costs for this moving forward, however [I believe] that it's still dependent on the operator to pay the Imarsat sub.

Last edited by Saab Dastard; 18th June 2025 at 18:25 . Reason: ChatGPT reference removed

Subjects: None

Squawk7700
June 18, 2025, 05:02:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11904910

For a Boeing 787 (typically equipped with either GE GEnx-1B or Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 engines), the spool-down time from full takeoff power to idle is generally around 4 to 7 seconds.

Subjects: None

Squawk7700
June 18, 2025, 23:23:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11905616

I haven't read anywhere where the yaw to the right was noticed not that long after takeoff? I'm assuming this was due to the roll-back.

About 9 seconds after wheels-up it's clear that power is well and truly deminishing.
17 seconds after wheels-up, there's a defined yaw to the right.

It looks like the right engine power is lost, a yaw to the right occurs and immediately after, the aircraft pitches up, potentially due to elevator input and subsequently some left rudder. It gives some credit to the theory that one engine was lost.

I can only assume that the associated yaw from a lost engine would be significant, so on the face of it, it doesn't look severe enough, but it does look somewhat upset.

Subjects: None

Squawk7700
June 19, 2025, 00:00:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11905628

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDML

Maybe both engines didn't shut down absolutely sychronously. In the fly-by video a bit later not even a little bit asymmetry is visible. The rudder is straight and no bank whatsoever. That would also explain why the yaw is very small - a second later the other engine had failed as well.

Take a look at the video from the rear.

Subjects: None

Squawk7700
June 19, 2025, 02:09:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11905673

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbofh

5G interference? It may be an avenue worth exploring?

Do the critical engine control systems run on 5g frequencies?

"Consumer 5G phones do not emit enough power or operate on the right frequencies to bring down a commercial airliner like the 787. Aviation systems are built with much stricter tolerance and protections."

Millions of flight hours unaffected by mobile phones are a testament to this statement.

Last edited by Saab Dastard; 19th June 2025 at 10:43 . Reason: Reference to chat GPT removed

Subjects: None

Squawk7700
June 19, 2025, 04:18:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11905707

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magplug

2. Put 200' as the altitude target in the FCU. Immediate ALT capture and all the power comes off. PF is still hand flying trying to increase pitch but is already way behind the aircraft.

I fear you might be onto something here. How quickly would the power drop off in this circumstance?

\x93Mayday\x85 mayday\x85 mayday\x85 no thrust\x85 losing power\x85 unable to lift.\x94

Is the cleared altitude available from the ATC tapes and could it have been 2,000 or 20,000 perhaps?

Subjects: None

Squawk7700
June 19, 2025, 09:05:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11905850

Quote:

Originally Posted by 604driver

Not saying at all that is what happened here. Just interested in the logic.

Software is all about logic and impossible to predict, as seem with the MCAS issues coded by an offshore company and not thoroughly checked or fully understood by those that commissioned the code.

I lost my pitot input on my last flight and my auto-pilot started a set of uncontrolled pitches, so I disabled and hand flew. I would have never expected that behaviour. It has a speed tolerance with minimum speed, however it was nowhere near that threshold.

Subjects: None

Squawk7700
June 20, 2025, 11:20:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11906855

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechta

There are numerous pictures ot the outside of B787 centre tanks on the net. Does anyone one have any internal pictures, showing the tank floor and fuel pump pick ups?
We know the engines lost power in the initial climb, shortly after rotation. If there was water sitting between the tank lower skin stringers, the rotation would have been the point that the water could tumble over the stringers that were previously preventing its movement. accumulate at the back of the tank and enter both pumps more or less simultaneously.

I had been wondering the same until I read that there is a forward and a rear pickup within the tank. Each pump in the centre tank draws from it's own pickup and is piped to the spar valves and then onto the engines.

In a well designed boat, you'd have each engine feeding from a different tank for the utmost in redundancy, but seemingly not so in all aircraft.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Centre Tank Fuel (All) Spar Valves

Squawk7700
June 20, 2025, 11:34:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11906868

Quote:

Originally Posted by violator

Interestingly enough on Airbus aircraft even when there\x92s fuel in the centre tank the centre tank fuel pumps are switched off automatically after the flaps are extended for takeoff and each engine is fed by its respective wing tank for takeoff. Surprised it\x92s not the case for Boeings

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting for even a moment that Boeing don't do the same thing; I have no idea. I was merely pointing out how the centre tank feeds when it does.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Centre Tank Fuel (All)

Squawk7700 June 17, 2025, 10:28:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904180	Perhaps? Takeoff proceeded normally, TOGA used. Autothrottle entered HOLD mode at 80 knots . VNAV or FLCH was NOT engaged after liftoff. Pilot assumed A/T was managing thrust, but it wasn’t. Pilot focused on pitch/flying manually. Thrust stayed fixed or decayed (if levers were moved). Speed decayed, aircraft climbed too steeply, energy bled off. Pilot assumed engine failure due to poor climb response. Boeing SOPs typically include a callout at 400 ft like: "LNAV" - "VNAV" or "FLCH SPD" To ensure: Proper navigation mode is active Autothrottle resumes thrust management Aircraft transitions smoothly into the climb phase Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Engine Failure (All) TOGA
Squawk7700 June 17, 2025, 10:32:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904185	Quote: Originally Posted by gearlever "On Jun 17th 2025 an official, a former Air India Captain trained by the Captain of the accident flight, stated, that the CVR has been successfully read out, the voices on the CVR are very clear. It is becoming gradually clear from the newly emerging evidence that there was probably zero negligence in the cockpit, the crew did not give up until the very last moment. The probability of a technical cause is high. A preliminary report by India's AAIB can be expected in a few days." AvH How could the CVR have been "read out" if the CVR hasn't yet been located? This comment is from a low-budget news source. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): AAIB (All) CVR Preliminary Report
Squawk7700 June 17, 2025, 12:33:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904262	Quote: Originally Posted by TURIN But would any of that trigger the RAT and/or cause the emergency lights to come on? (I know, there is only anecdotal evidence from the sole survivor of this). That came from a 787 pilot friend. Under the assumption that the RAT deployment is still an assumption. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): RAT (All) RAT (Deployment)
Squawk7700 June 17, 2025, 23:16:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904753	Quote: Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs Interesting but totally irrelevant as the jet never got above 200ft. You're clearly implying a complete ballsup by the crew, making multiple serious mistakes or errors of omission. "The Air India Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner that tragically crashed on June 12, 2025, reached a maximum altitude of approximately 625 feet above sea level—about 425 feet above the airport’s elevation of 200 feet—before it began descending. Other reports indicate the aircraft may have reached up to 825 feet before losing lift." Not impling; but merely asking if it were possible. * Disclaimer - It is unkown if these statistics take into account the barometric pressure at the time. Subjects: None
Squawk7700 June 17, 2025, 23:26:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904762	Quote: Originally Posted by Lead Balloon I was struck by a comment in this or the earlier thread that I cannot now find. It was to the effect \x96 I\x92m paraphrasing \x96 that fuel shut off results in an almost immediate cessation of thrust. Spot on, there's so much fuel being sucked at that power setting, it would be super quick and presumably at near enough to the exact same time. I assume (rightly so) that you're focused on what could cause them to fail at what appears to be the exact same time given the absence of yaw and any correcting rudder input. One the face of it, it could only be throttle or fuel supply, with fuel supply only being able to be cut off by valves so abruptly. Any kind of blockage or similar wouldn't give such a result, even if there was a low fuel condition, short of the pickups being exactly right next to each other, presumably that wouldn't give the outcome we've seen. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Fuel Cutoff Switches
Squawk7700 June 17, 2025, 23:29:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904765	Quote: Originally Posted by tdracer The gag rule is pretty much the first thing you're told when you get drawn into an investigation - and you can get in big trouble for violating it (even if inadvertent). A Boeing management type got his hand slapped pretty hard not to long ago when he made the mistake of answering a reporter's question regarding the Alaska door plug blowout. I was tempted to contact my friend who was my counterpart during the 787/GEnx-1B development, but I suspect he's already been contacted and is considered to be part of the investigation - so he couldn't talk to me about it anyway. I wouldn't read anything at all into it, as it appeared on a single online news article from some low-budget unknown news source. Subjects: None
Squawk7700 June 18, 2025, 03:53:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904874	Quote: Originally Posted by PANme Real time data reporting of performance by engines and a/c systems. How much data might Boeing and the engine manufacturers have had access to prior to any electrical interruption. How much of such data flow is forwarded in real time to airline integrated operations centres? Short of the long would any of these entities have access to data that could substantially point them in the direction of isolating a cause even before the black boxes are read and transcribed. Spot on, as we would all know by now, ACARS would have been sending it, IF they are paying for the subscription for the Inmarsat service. Subjects: None
Squawk7700 June 18, 2025, 04:58:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904909	Quote: Originally Posted by PANme After mh370 it’s hard to believe that the maximum flow of critical data is not yet mandated. There was talk back then that Boeing were going to cop the costs for this moving forward, however [I believe] that it's still dependent on the operator to pay the Imarsat sub. Last edited by Saab Dastard; 18th June 2025 at 18:25 . Reason: ChatGPT reference removed Subjects: None
Squawk7700 June 18, 2025, 05:02:00 GMT permalink Post: 11904910	For a Boeing 787 (typically equipped with either GE GEnx-1B or Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 engines), the spool-down time from full takeoff power to idle is generally around 4 to 7 seconds. Subjects: None
Squawk7700 June 18, 2025, 23:23:00 GMT permalink Post: 11905616	I haven't read anywhere where the yaw to the right was noticed not that long after takeoff? I'm assuming this was due to the roll-back. About 9 seconds after wheels-up it's clear that power is well and truly deminishing. 17 seconds after wheels-up, there's a defined yaw to the right. It looks like the right engine power is lost, a yaw to the right occurs and immediately after, the aircraft pitches up, potentially due to elevator input and subsequently some left rudder. It gives some credit to the theory that one engine was lost. I can only assume that the associated yaw from a lost engine would be significant, so on the face of it, it doesn't look severe enough, but it does look somewhat upset. Subjects: None
Squawk7700 June 19, 2025, 00:00:00 GMT permalink Post: 11905628	Quote: Originally Posted by EDML Maybe both engines didn't shut down absolutely sychronously. In the fly-by video a bit later not even a little bit asymmetry is visible. The rudder is straight and no bank whatsoever. That would also explain why the yaw is very small - a second later the other engine had failed as well. Take a look at the video from the rear. Subjects: None
Squawk7700 June 19, 2025, 02:09:00 GMT permalink Post: 11905673	Quote: Originally Posted by bbofh 5G interference? It may be an avenue worth exploring? Do the critical engine control systems run on 5g frequencies? "Consumer 5G phones do not emit enough power or operate on the right frequencies to bring down a commercial airliner like the 787. Aviation systems are built with much stricter tolerance and protections." Millions of flight hours unaffected by mobile phones are a testament to this statement. Last edited by Saab Dastard; 19th June 2025 at 10:43 . Reason: Reference to chat GPT removed Subjects: None
Squawk7700 June 19, 2025, 04:18:00 GMT permalink Post: 11905707	Quote: Originally Posted by Magplug 2. Put 200' as the altitude target in the FCU. Immediate ALT capture and all the power comes off. PF is still hand flying trying to increase pitch but is already way behind the aircraft. I fear you might be onto something here. How quickly would the power drop off in this circumstance? \x93Mayday\x85 mayday\x85 mayday\x85 no thrust\x85 losing power\x85 unable to lift.\x94 Is the cleared altitude available from the ATC tapes and could it have been 2,000 or 20,000 perhaps? Subjects: None
Squawk7700 June 19, 2025, 09:05:00 GMT permalink Post: 11905850	Quote: Originally Posted by 604driver Not saying at all that is what happened here. Just interested in the logic. Software is all about logic and impossible to predict, as seem with the MCAS issues coded by an offshore company and not thoroughly checked or fully understood by those that commissioned the code. I lost my pitot input on my last flight and my auto-pilot started a set of uncontrolled pitches, so I disabled and hand flew. I would have never expected that behaviour. It has a speed tolerance with minimum speed, however it was nowhere near that threshold. Subjects: None
Squawk7700 June 20, 2025, 11:20:00 GMT permalink Post: 11906855	Quote: Originally Posted by Mechta There are numerous pictures ot the outside of B787 centre tanks on the net. Does anyone one have any internal pictures, showing the tank floor and fuel pump pick ups? We know the engines lost power in the initial climb, shortly after rotation. If there was water sitting between the tank lower skin stringers, the rotation would have been the point that the water could tumble over the stringers that were previously preventing its movement. accumulate at the back of the tank and enter both pumps more or less simultaneously. I had been wondering the same until I read that there is a forward and a rear pickup within the tank. Each pump in the centre tank draws from it's own pickup and is piped to the spar valves and then onto the engines. In a well designed boat, you'd have each engine feeding from a different tank for the utmost in redundancy, but seemingly not so in all aircraft. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Centre Tank Fuel (All) Spar Valves
Squawk7700 June 20, 2025, 11:34:00 GMT permalink Post: 11906868	Quote: Originally Posted by violator Interestingly enough on Airbus aircraft even when there\x92s fuel in the centre tank the centre tank fuel pumps are switched off automatically after the flaps are extended for takeoff and each engine is fed by its respective wing tank for takeoff. Surprised it\x92s not the case for Boeings Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting for even a moment that Boeing don't do the same thing; I have no idea. I was merely pointing out how the centre tank feeds when it does. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Centre Tank Fuel (All)

Posts by user "Squawk7700" [Posts: 16 Total up-votes: 0 Pages: 1]

Perhaps?