Uplinker
July 12, 2025, 11:51:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11920482

Quote:

"The aircraft achieved the maximum recorded airspeed of 180 Knots IAS at about 08:08:42 UTC and immediately thereafter, the Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec."

This might have been discussed but as has been suggested upthread; a possible scenario is that at some point, PIC took their hands off the thrust levers and/or placed them in a guarding position behind the thrust levers at their base - but by doing so unfortunately nudged the Fuel cut-off switches to 'Off' - perhaps 'helped' by there either being incorrectly fitted locking mechanisms or worn locking mechanisms ?

Subjects Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Fuel Cutoff Switches Preliminary Report RUN/CUTOFF Timeline (Preliminary Report)

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Uplinker
July 12, 2025, 12:09:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11920506

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinebrangan

3 possibilities come to mind:

1. Pilot who moved fuel switches to off did not do so intentionally to cause the outcome, but for some reason unknown.............somehow confused the action of retracting gear with shutdown procedure at end of flight..

This crossed my mind too. This is called an "action-slip" by designers: a valid and frequently practised action being applied to entirely the wrong situation, resulting in an (extremely) invalid action.

On this flight, the relative drop in noise and calm that follows the landing gear doors closing after the gear retracts during the initial climb, might have caused an action slip by PIC to perform the engine shut-down procedure used when parking on stand.

Unlikely though, I would hope.

Subjects Action slip Engine Failure (All) Engine Shutdown Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches

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Uplinker
July 12, 2025, 12:41:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11920549

Quote:

Originally Posted by Someone Somewhere

The gear were never retracted on this flight, so the action being caused by gear up quietness is not feasible.

Action slip in general... technically possible, but there should still be no actions being taken other than gear up (and probably still a bit early for that).

Engines off instead of gear up is one hell of an action slip.

Ah, OK, noted re the gear. But there must have been some other distraction that led to an action-slip. For example, why wasn't the gear retracted ? - it is a very clear sequence: " V1......Rotate......positive climb......gear up....." So something else must have happened to distract both pilots.

Perhaps the brakes were hot, so maybe they deliberately delayed bringing the gear up to let them cool first - (an occasionally needed but standard procedure). This uncommon sequence in turn might possibly have led to an action slip.

But action-slips are exactly that. A valid action applied to completely the wrong situation. E.g putting the milk in the bin or the microwave instead of back in the fridge.

Highly unlikely, I know, but..............

Subjects Action slip

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Uplinker
August 07, 2025, 14:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11934690

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdracer

.......The [test] pilots would always use extreme care to make sure they got the correct engine - including putting their hand on the fuel switch and having the other pilot confirm it was the correct switch before setting it to CUTOFF.......

That's exactly what normal line pilots are taught and trained to do as well. Switch by switch, lever by lever. Each and every one confirmed before moving.

.........At least it was 5 years ago. I sincerely hope it still is.

Much much longer ago for my base check in a Shorts 360, there were no SIMs, so engine failures were simulated in the real flying aircraft. Sure enough, while I was flying, my PM, (also my examiner) was shutting the engine down, he asked me to confirm and when I looked up he was (deliberately) holding the wrong lever, to see if I really was checking.

I was

Last edited by Uplinker; 8th August 2025 at 07:22 . Reason: clarification

Subjects Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches RUN/CUTOFF

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Uplinker
August 08, 2025, 10:35:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11935157

Yes, aka the James Reason Swiss cheese model.

Subjects: None

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Uplinker July 12, 2025, 11:51:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920482	Quote: "The aircraft achieved the maximum recorded airspeed of 180 Knots IAS at about 08:08:42 UTC and immediately thereafter, the Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec." This might have been discussed but as has been suggested upthread; a possible scenario is that at some point, PIC took their hands off the thrust levers and/or placed them in a guarding position behind the thrust levers at their base - but by doing so unfortunately nudged the Fuel cut-off switches to 'Off' - perhaps 'helped' by there either being incorrectly fitted locking mechanisms or worn locking mechanisms ? Subjects Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Fuel Cutoff Switches Preliminary Report RUN/CUTOFF Timeline (Preliminary Report) Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 2 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Uplinker July 12, 2025, 12:09:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920506	Quote: Originally Posted by martinebrangan 3 possibilities come to mind: 1. Pilot who moved fuel switches to off did not do so intentionally to cause the outcome, but for some reason unknown.............somehow confused the action of retracting gear with shutdown procedure at end of flight.. This crossed my mind too. This is called an "action-slip" by designers: a valid and frequently practised action being applied to entirely the wrong situation, resulting in an (extremely) invalid action. On this flight, the relative drop in noise and calm that follows the landing gear doors closing after the gear retracts during the initial climb, might have caused an action slip by PIC to perform the engine shut-down procedure used when parking on stand. Unlikely though, I would hope. Subjects Action slip Engine Failure (All) Engine Shutdown Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 2 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Uplinker July 12, 2025, 12:41:00 GMT permalink Post: 11920549	Quote: Originally Posted by Someone Somewhere The gear were never retracted on this flight, so the action being caused by gear up quietness is not feasible. Action slip in general... technically possible, but there should still be no actions being taken other than gear up (and probably still a bit early for that). Engines off instead of gear up is one hell of an action slip. Ah, OK, noted re the gear. But there must have been some other distraction that led to an action-slip. For example, why wasn't the gear retracted ? - it is a very clear sequence: " V1......Rotate......positive climb......gear up....." So something else must have happened to distract both pilots. Perhaps the brakes were hot, so maybe they deliberately delayed bringing the gear up to let them cool first - (an occasionally needed but standard procedure). This uncommon sequence in turn might possibly have led to an action slip. But action-slips are exactly that. A valid action applied to completely the wrong situation. E.g putting the milk in the bin or the microwave instead of back in the fridge. Highly unlikely, I know, but.............. Subjects Action slip Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. No recorded likes for this post (could be before pprune supported 'likes'). Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Uplinker August 07, 2025, 14:10:00 GMT permalink Post: 11934690	Quote: Originally Posted by tdracer .......The [test] pilots would always use extreme care to make sure they got the correct engine - including putting their hand on the fuel switch and having the other pilot confirm it was the correct switch before setting it to CUTOFF....... That's exactly what normal line pilots are taught and trained to do as well. Switch by switch, lever by lever. Each and every one confirmed before moving. .........At least it was 5 years ago. I sincerely hope it still is. Much much longer ago for my base check in a Shorts 360, there were no SIMs, so engine failures were simulated in the real flying aircraft. Sure enough, while I was flying, my PM, (also my examiner) was shutting the engine down, he asked me to confirm and when I looked up he was (deliberately) holding the wrong lever, to see if I really was checking. I was . Last edited by Uplinker; 8th August 2025 at 07:22 . Reason: clarification Subjects Fuel (All) Fuel Cutoff Switches RUN/CUTOFF Links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context. 8 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.
Uplinker August 08, 2025, 10:35:00 GMT permalink Post: 11935157	Yes, aka the James Reason Swiss cheese model. Subjects: None 1 recorded likes for this post. Reply to this quoting this original post. You need to be logged in. Not available on closed threads.

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