hans brinker
June 13, 2025, 01:46:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11899916

Quote:

Originally Posted by T28B

If you doubled my mod pay I'd get the same amount.

2 x ∞ = ∞ . Man, mods get paid well 😂🤭!!! (but seriously, thanks for what you do).

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Thread Moderation

hans brinker
June 13, 2025, 01:51:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11899919

Quote:

Originally Posted by neville_nobody

Both of which would have been prevented if the procedure at the end of flight was to reset the Altitude to say 5 or 10 000'. That way if you didn't set the altitude on the next flight you would at least keep going up.

Depends on the field elevation (my base is at 5500', have flown into 10k elevation airports).... Our technique is to set top of the SID altitude minus 100'. Looks wrong, and is safe.

Subjects: None

hans brinker
June 19, 2025, 14:46:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11906085

Quote:

Originally Posted by LGB

I agree to placing hands on, or behind to guard them, during many phases of flight. But when do your hands go back on the thrust levers after take-off, before 400' AGL? Would that be the left seat pilot, the PF or PM doing that?

15K hours, 5 companies, 7 types, JAA/FAA. All had something like "Below 2500' the PF will have hands on/guarding the flight controls" in the manual. Power/thrust levers/throttles are considered flight controls in this context. Vast majority opinion was that as soon as you were done rotating, and had asked for gear up, the PF would put their hand back on the thrust levers. I would think this would almost always be well before 400'. When I was on the 320 it would be about 50' because you only use one hand to rotate, now new on the 737 it takes (me) two hands and a bit longer to get rotation right, but probably almost always below 200'.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Switch Guards

hans brinker
June 19, 2025, 15:49:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11906136

Quote:

Originally Posted by syseng68k

Thanks. The next question being: With both engines at idle, will there still be enough hydraulic and electrical power generated ?. Might depend also on aircraft mode, ground / air, takeoff / landing etc..

Quote:

Originally Posted by T28B

Admin note: offer informed speculation where speculation arises in the course of discussing this tragic accident.

Every "modern" jet (737NG was born in 1993) uses idle descent. I would think they would not do that if they didn't generate enough hydraulic or electric power.

Subjects: None

hans brinker
June 20, 2025, 18:10:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11907170

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpyoldgeek

Best glide performance doesn't start until the pilot pitches the nose down and establishes best glide. As near as I can see, the nose never pitches down.

Best glide doesn't start until the aircraft reaches best glide speed. That might mean raising the nose to decelerate depending on the starting speed. Not saying this case was far above best gliding speed, but your statement assumes they were below best gliding speed.

Subjects: None

hans brinker
June 20, 2025, 18:31:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11907188

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

In this case, not being a 787 jock, my WAG would be a V2 of 165, so they'd be at ~180, and Vref would be at least ~160 (422,000lb, at flap 5). Once those engines cut, it wasn't going much higher at all. Bit of a zoom of possibly 100ft max, IMO. So I doubt the engines stopped at liftoff.

Having done many a takeoff sitting with the nose pointed skyward after liftoff, you just know that if both engines stopped, you would almost immediately stop going up. When you lose only one you have to be quick getting the nose down to keep the speed. If you lost both, you're not going much higher.

Emirates 521 touched down at 162kts, presumably idle power, lifted off 8 seconds later, climbed to 85' and touched down 12 seconds after lift off. My best guess would be at least partial power after T/O for AI to get that high and far.

Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): V2

hans brinker
July 09, 2025, 16:50:00 GMT
permalink Post: 11918519

Quote:

Originally Posted by Propellerhead

Theory alert : If you don’t have, or delete the cruise altitude in the FMC the aircraft will command a level off at 400ft, with the thrust levers reducing thrust significantly (I’ve seen it in the sim and happened at least once for real to my operator). It’s easy to do when loading the descent winds if you hit the wrong button. Could this have been confused with a loss of thrust?!

That seems like an odd way to handle that. Do you have a reference?

Subjects: None

hans brinker June 13, 2025, 01:46:00 GMT permalink Post: 11899916	Quote: Originally Posted by T28B If you doubled my mod pay I'd get the same amount. 2 x ∞ = ∞ . Man, mods get paid well 😂🤭!!! (but seriously, thanks for what you do). Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Thread Moderation
hans brinker June 13, 2025, 01:51:00 GMT permalink Post: 11899919	Quote: Originally Posted by neville_nobody Both of which would have been prevented if the procedure at the end of flight was to reset the Altitude to say 5 or 10 000'. That way if you didn't set the altitude on the next flight you would at least keep going up. Depends on the field elevation (my base is at 5500', have flown into 10k elevation airports).... Our technique is to set top of the SID altitude minus 100'. Looks wrong, and is safe. Subjects: None
hans brinker June 19, 2025, 14:46:00 GMT permalink Post: 11906085	Quote: Originally Posted by LGB I agree to placing hands on, or behind to guard them, during many phases of flight. But when do your hands go back on the thrust levers after take-off, before 400' AGL? Would that be the left seat pilot, the PF or PM doing that? 15K hours, 5 companies, 7 types, JAA/FAA. All had something like "Below 2500' the PF will have hands on/guarding the flight controls" in the manual. Power/thrust levers/throttles are considered flight controls in this context. Vast majority opinion was that as soon as you were done rotating, and had asked for gear up, the PF would put their hand back on the thrust levers. I would think this would almost always be well before 400'. When I was on the 320 it would be about 50' because you only use one hand to rotate, now new on the 737 it takes (me) two hands and a bit longer to get rotation right, but probably almost always below 200'. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): Switch Guards
hans brinker June 19, 2025, 15:49:00 GMT permalink Post: 11906136	Quote: Originally Posted by syseng68k Thanks. The next question being: With both engines at idle, will there still be enough hydraulic and electrical power generated ?. Might depend also on aircraft mode, ground / air, takeoff / landing etc.. Quote: Originally Posted by T28B Admin note: offer informed speculation where speculation arises in the course of discussing this tragic accident. Every "modern" jet (737NG was born in 1993) uses idle descent. I would think they would not do that if they didn't generate enough hydraulic or electric power. Subjects: None
hans brinker June 20, 2025, 18:10:00 GMT permalink Post: 11907170	Quote: Originally Posted by grumpyoldgeek Best glide performance doesn't start until the pilot pitches the nose down and establishes best glide. As near as I can see, the nose never pitches down. Best glide doesn't start until the aircraft reaches best glide speed. That might mean raising the nose to decelerate depending on the starting speed. Not saying this case was far above best gliding speed, but your statement assumes they were below best gliding speed. Subjects: None
hans brinker June 20, 2025, 18:31:00 GMT permalink Post: 11907188	Quote: Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs In this case, not being a 787 jock, my WAG would be a V2 of 165, so they'd be at ~180, and Vref would be at least ~160 (422,000lb, at flap 5). Once those engines cut, it wasn't going much higher at all. Bit of a zoom of possibly 100ft max, IMO. So I doubt the engines stopped at liftoff. Having done many a takeoff sitting with the nose pointed skyward after liftoff, you just know that if both engines stopped, you would almost immediately stop going up. When you lose only one you have to be quick getting the nose down to keep the speed. If you lost both, you're not going much higher. Emirates 521 touched down at 162kts, presumably idle power, lifted off 8 seconds later, climbed to 85' and touched down 12 seconds after lift off. My best guess would be at least partial power after T/O for AI to get that high and far. Subjects (links are to this post in the relevant subject page so that this post can be seen in context): V2
hans brinker July 09, 2025, 16:50:00 GMT permalink Post: 11918519	Quote: Originally Posted by Propellerhead Theory alert : If you don’t have, or delete the cruise altitude in the FMC the aircraft will command a level off at 400ft, with the thrust levers reducing thrust significantly (I’ve seen it in the sim and happened at least once for real to my operator). It’s easy to do when loading the descent winds if you hit the wrong button. Could this have been confused with a loss of thrust?! That seems like an odd way to handle that. Do you have a reference? Subjects: None

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